OT: Mountain Biking in NJ

[Ronnie_B]

Anyone else hit the trails? Being an active summer for me and I have been riding for close to 20 years. The last couple weeks have hit Allaire and Huber Woods and because it close to home I hit Cheesequake Park a couple times a week after work.

But the best trails for the money for me is Hartshorne Woods in Atlantic Highlands, a lot of trails and Rocky Point is one of my favorite trails there.

 

[Knight Shift]

Anyone else hit the trails? Being an active summer for me and I have been riding for close to 20 years. The last couple weeks have hit Allaire and Huber Woods and because it close to home I hit Cheesequake Park a couple times a week after work.

But the best trails for the money for me is Hartshorne Woods in Atlantic Highlands, a lot of trails and Rocky Point is one of my favorite trails there.

Hartshorne Woods is killer. It's actually in Middletown (Atlantic Highlands zip code) and Highlands. 2-3 times per week, I ride my bike over the Oceanic Bridge from Rumson into Middletown, through Claypit Creek section of Hartshorne Woods, and through the back end of Hartshorne. It's a lot of steep uphill riding, but a great workout. In the mornings, I have seen deer, foxes, chipmunks, lots of and cardinals. I finish my ride down Portland Road and over the bridge that takes you into Sandy Hook. It's literally over the river, and through the woods.

How long of a loop is Huber Woods, and is there a lot of uphill?

Does Allaire have a a lot of uphill or is it flat?

 

[rufancoe00]

alot of riders will loop Hartshorne with Huber woods in one ride and in winter many fat bikers ride the beaches of Sandy Hook. Allaire is best ridden in winter when the sand firms up (also drains well as it is not recommended to ride wet trails, there are a few smaller climbs at Allaire, but nothing like Hartshorne .

Living near Trenton I usually hit the local places, Mercer and Baldpate and some places in PA

Closer to Rutgers you have Six Mile Run off Rt 27 which is a great system, flowy and twisty without alot of climbs. For a completly different experience near Rutgers hit out Sourlands which is filled with boulders...

The variety of NJ mountain bike trails cannot be beat, from the sandy flat places like Wharton and Allaire to the rocks of Sourlands and places up north (Ringwood, Waywayanda etc.)

hit up MTBNJ.com for the New Jersey MTB scene. Trail conditions and threads for all parks in NJ ! Also check out your local JORBA chapter as JORBA volunteers maintain the trails and help keep the trails that we love to ride on open to the mtb community

 

[Ronnie_B]

alot of riders will loop Hartshorne with Huber woods in one ride and in winter many fat bikers ride the beaches of Sandy Hook. Allaire is best ridden in winter when the sand firms up (also drains well as it is not recommended to ride wet trails, there are a few smaller climbs at Allaire, but nothing like Hartshorne .

Living near Trenton I usually hit the local places, Mercer and Baldpate and some places in PA

Closer to Rutgers you have Six Mile Run off Rt 27 which is a great system, flowy and twisty without alot of climbs. For a completly different experience near Rutgers hit out Sourlands which is filled with boulders...

The variety of NJ mountain bike trails cannot be beat, from the sandy flat places like Wharton and Allaire to the rocks of Sourlands and places up north (Ringwood, Waywayanda etc.)

hit up MTBNJ.com for the New Jersey MTB scene. Trail conditions and threads for all parks in NJ ! Also check out your local JORBA chapter as JORBA volunteers maintain the trails and help keep the trails that we love to ride on open to the mtb community

I rode Six Mile Run last summer and while I liked it I would never go on a weekend again, too many riders. That like Allaire, which it reminded me of very much, probably best to hit during the weekday when it's not as crowded.

I need to start hitting the trails up north.

 

[CornerTavern]

Anyone else hit the trails? Being an active summer for me and I have been riding for close to 20 years. The last couple weeks have hit Allaire and Huber Woods and because it close to home I hit Cheesequake Park a couple times a week after work.

But the best trails for the money for me is Hartshorne Woods in Atlantic Highlands, a lot of trails and Rocky Point is one of my favorite trails there.

I loved allaire.

I like to use the maps and stuff and JORBA.org

But I'd love to hear people's experience with good smartphone apps for finding good trails in NJ or mapping/recording progress.

 

[CornerTavern]

Clayton Park is nice, down off 195

also Lewis Morris Park up in Morris County

 

[Ronnie_B]

I loved allaire.

I like to use the maps and stuff and JORBA.org

But I'd love to hear people's experience with good smartphone apps for finding good trails in NJ or mapping/recording progress.

I use MapMyRide, its awesome. You can later go on your laptop log into your account and bring up your ride using Google Maps. Definitely check it out.

 

[Ronnie_B]

Hartshorne Woods is killer. It's actually in Middletown (Atlantic Highlands zip code) and Highlands. 2-3 times per week, I ride my bike over the Oceanic Bridge from Rumson into Middletown, through Claypit Creek section of Hartshorne Woods, and through the back end of Hartshorne. It's a lot of steep uphill riding, but a great workout. In the mornings, I have seen deer, foxes, chipmunks, lots of and cardinals. I finish my ride down Portland Road and over the bridge that takes you into Sandy Hook. It's literally over the river, and through the woods.

How long of a loop is Huber Woods, and is there a lot of uphill?

Does Allaire have a a lot of uphill or is it flat?

Sorry, I missed your post before.

Huber is hilly but not like Hartshorne and its loops are not as long. But its different.

Allaire is a lot of flat BUT it does have one gorge that is very hill and absolutely beautiful when you get to the bottom of it. One problem with Allaire, like Six Run, is there is a TON of different trails, which is cool but you can easily get lost and spend a lot of time trying to figure where you are. Hartshorne has a limited trails, they are just very long....and hilly!

Do check out Cheesequake, very technical, its loop is short but sweet.

 

[CornerTavern]

I don't know if I should start a different thread, but...

Can anyone recommend a bike? I have been using a hand-me-down bike that is too small, and old.

I am 6'2'' ~165 lbs, I'm a novice trail rider, but have been road biking with a cannonade for a while now. I'm really a novice but I want to get into it more, and have the right equipment - and the old bike is a piece of junk. I'm thinking I need the large frame bike, 29er, hard back... but I have on idea what is the best brand. Ideally I'd like to spend hundreds, not over $1000.

Any advice?

 

[Knight Shift]

As an aside, I am in Sedona Arizona right now. Talk about mountain biking heaven! The hills and trails here make Hartshorne look like a kiddy ride. A lot of pants crapping moments on the rides out here. I just picked up a used Titus Supermoto full suspension bike off craigslist. What a huge difference vs the cannondale hardtail I was riding. When I retire I hope to split my time between nj and sedona. Life is good on mountain bike!

 

[FanuSanu52]

alot of riders will loop Hartshorne with Huber woods in one ride and in winter many fat bikers ride the beaches of Sandy Hook. Allaire is best ridden in winter when the sand firms up (also drains well as it is not recommended to ride wet trails, there are a few smaller climbs at Allaire, but nothing like Hartshorne .

Living near Trenton I usually hit the local places, Mercer and Baldpate and some places in PA

Closer to Rutgers you have Six Mile Run off Rt 27 which is a great system, flowy and twisty without alot of climbs. For a completly different experience near Rutgers hit out Sourlands which is filled with boulders...

The variety of NJ mountain bike trails cannot be beat, from the sandy flat places like Wharton and Allaire to the rocks of Sourlands and places up north (Ringwood, Waywayanda etc.)

hit up MTBNJ.com for the New Jersey MTB scene. Trail conditions and threads for all parks in NJ ! Also check out your local JORBA chapter as JORBA volunteers maintain the trails and help keep the trails that we love to ride on open to the mtb community

Seems like you've never been out west ...

That's not to knock NJ riding, which does have a lot to offer, but it can definitely be beat.

I grew up riding Chimney Rock back when MTB was really taking off in the early/mid 90s. Watched the area turn from "some trails in the woods that you can ride with your Huffy" to a Central Jersey MTB destination. One of my favorite memories from that time is regularly discovering new trails and putting together bigger and bigger rides. Tons of great stuff there with several different park areas that you can string together, though it's been more than a decade since I put tire to dirt there. I'd recommend checking it out if you're up that way.

Agree that the shore-area stuff is great, and Hartshorne was my favorite, too. Some great fast up-and-down riding, great views in that area, and nothing better than a quick trip to the beach after a long, hot ride.

Night riding is something I think more mountain bikers should try - a relatively dull trail becomes exhilarating and a fast, fun trail becomes downright crazy. Plus it's a great way to keep biking during super hot or humid weather. Plus, no traffic. I once night-biked Slickrock Trail, the most well-known MTB trail in the world and surely one of the most popular, and had it completely to myself - not another soul out there. Not sure where it's technically legal in NJ (I was actually arrested for it up near Morristown), but I used to do it at Chimney Rock with no real fear of consequence.

One thing I miss about NJ riding is the lack of horse traffic. One of the worst things about riding is running over a wet, clumpy freshly dropped horse cake on a fast descent - spinning tires have a way of distributing that mess all over.

 

[FanuSanu52]

As an aside, I am in Sedona Arizona right now. Talk about mountain biking heaven! The hills and trails here make Hartshorne look like a kiddy ride. A lot of pants crapping moments on the rides out here. I just picked up a used Titus Supermoto full suspension bike off craigslist. What a huge difference vs the cannondale hardtail I was riding. When I retire I hope to split my time between nj and sedona. Life is good on mountain bike!

Sedona has some epic scenery and nice singletrack, but the trails aren't as flowy as I was expecting. I suppose I like the classic big climb on the way out to long, fast descent on the way back and Sedona just didn't have that much of that. Felt like I was doing the climb on the way out, then an awful lot of pedaling on the way back with no real pay-off descent. As I saw one local describe it, "it's a world class climbing destination." Maybe it was just the area I rode.

Speaking of Sedona -

 

[koleszar]

Sorry, I missed your post before.

Huber is hilly but not like Hartshorne and its loops are not as long. But its different.

Allaire is a lot of flat BUT it does have one gorge that is very hill and absolutely beautiful when you get to the bottom of it. One problem with Allaire, like Six Run, is there is a TON of different trails, which is cool but you can easily get lost and spend a lot of time trying to figure where you are. Hartshorne has a limited trails, they are just very long....and hilly!

Do check out Cheesequake, very technical, its loop is short but sweet.

I know about getting lost in Allaire on a ride. One time we lost track of where we were. One in our group when we were trying to get out yells "I think I remember that tree". I yell back "Yea sure as opposed to the other 10,000 trees in this place you remember that one." Needless to say two hours later we finally figured it out. Lesson learned bring a compass just in case.:smiley:

 

[Ronnie_B]

I know about getting lost in Allaire on a ride. One time we lost track of where we were. One in our group when we were trying to get out yells "I think I remember that tree". I yell back "Yea sure as opposed to the other 10,000 trees in this place you remember that one." Needless to say two hours later we finally figured it out. Lesson learned bring a compass just in case.:smiley:

LOL, I hate getting lost because it slows me down. I mentioned MayMyRide to CornerTavern, I find it a great asset when I have no idea where I am.

 

[Ronnie_B]

I don't know if I should start a different thread, but...

Can anyone recommend a bike? I have been using a hand-me-down bike that is too small, and old.

I am 6'2'' ~165 lbs, I'm a novice trail rider, but have been road biking with a cannonade for a while now. I'm really a novice but I want to get into it more, and have the right equipment - and the old bike is a piece of junk. I'm thinking I need the large frame bike, 29er, hard back... but I have on idea what is the best brand. Ideally I'd like to spend hundreds, not over $1000.

Any advice?

You can't go wrong with Trek bikes, I bought mine in 1997 and it's still reliable, I get it tuned up every spring and it's been very durable.

 

[Metropolitans3]

I loved allaire.

I like to use the maps and stuff and JORBA.org

But I'd love to hear people's experience with good smartphone apps for finding good trails in NJ or mapping/recording progress.

Don't know about an app, but I very much prefer the vertical and technical aspects found in north jersey/ny state. Jungle Habitat, Allamuchy, the new trail they are building in Ringwood, Stewart Airport (NY), White Clay (DE). Then the downhill parks are a blast too.

I don't know if I should start a different thread, but...

Can anyone recommend a bike? I have been using a hand-me-down bike that is too small, and old.

I am 6'2'' ~165 lbs, I'm a novice trail rider, but have been road biking with a cannonade for a while now. I'm really a novice but I want to get into it more, and have the right equipment - and the old bike is a piece of junk. I'm thinking I need the large frame bike, 29er, hard back... but I have on idea what is the best brand. Ideally I'd like to spend hundreds, not over $1000.

Any advice?

For cross country riding (my opinion) XL frame, 29er for sure, Trek/Santa Cruz, pinkbike.com and buy it used.

 

[_dave_]

You can't go wrong with Trek bikes, I bought mine in 1997 and it's still reliable, I get it tuned up every spring and it's been very durable.

Back in 97 Trek was an American bike. They are made in China now and I don't see anyone riding them anymore out west.

Terrain out here (Lake Tahoe) is much more extreme. I see, in this area, mostly Specialized and Santa Cruz bikes with many Giant and GT along with fewer Yetis and an occasional Kona. 99% duel suspensions out here but in Jersey Shore you just need a decent hardtail.

Myself, I have a '14 Santa Cruz Heckler. Bottom of the line for them but it gets the job done for me. I'm very much a novice and do mostly cross country riding, when on the bike. Still, it can handle gnarly jumps and tabletops and boulders.

 

[okieKnight]

I mainly ride road/triathlon bikes at this point, but bike xc over at the RU ecological preserve, which I like to call the prevert preserve, and ride my downhill bike at Mountain Creek when I can.

 

[Ronnie_B]

Back in 97 Trek was an American bike. They are made in China now and I don't see anyone riding them anymore out west.

Terrain out here (Lake Tahoe) is much more extreme. I see, in this area, mostly Specialized and Santa Cruz bikes with many Giant and GT along with fewer Yetis and an occasional Kona. 99% duel suspensions out here but in Jersey Shore you just need a decent hardtail.

Myself, I have a '14 Santa Cruz Heckler. Bottom of the line for them but it gets the job done for me. I'm very much a novice and do mostly cross country riding, when on the bike. Still, it can handle gnarly jumps and tabletops and boulders.

Did not know that about Trek, thanks for the heads up. Checked out your bike, that looks like a pretty sweet ride, have been thinking of finally getting a new bike for next year, I think I'm going to look at the Santa Cruz Hecklers, not bad price.

 

[Knight Shift]

Sedona has some epic scenery and nice singletrack, but the trails aren't as flowy as I was expecting. I suppose I like the classic big climb on the way out to long, fast descent on the way back and Sedona just didn't have that much of that. Felt like I was doing the climb on the way out, then an awful lot of pedaling on the way back with no real pay-off descent. As I saw one local describe it, "it's a world class climbing destination." Maybe it was just the area I rode.

Speaking of Sedona -

View embedded media

That's a pretty sick video. Do you remember which trails you rode in Sedona? There are so many trails out here, it will take a long time to hit them all. We have the Big Park Loop and the Bell Rock Trail out behind our house, and we are getting used to that. Connects to the Llama trail to Little Horse. I don't mind the climbing. It's a great workout. The Bell Rock Trail was kind of flowy, and we are going to connect out to the Templeton trail later this week. I wish I did not have to come back home. We love it here. Only problem is there are no jobs, except if you work in real estate or hospitality.

 

[Knight Shift]

Sorry, I missed your post before.

Huber is hilly but not like Hartshorne and its loops are not as long. But its different.

Allaire is a lot of flat BUT it does have one gorge that is very hill and absolutely beautiful when you get to the bottom of it. One problem with Allaire, like Six Run, is there is a TON of different trails, which is cool but you can easily get lost and spend a lot of time trying to figure where you are. Hartshorne has a limited trails, they are just very long....and hilly!

Do check out Cheesequake, very technical, its loop is short but sweet.

I've heard about Allaire and getting lost. I also know it is very busy on weekends. My current plan when I retire is to get a small house in the Herbertsville section of Brick or near the Edgar Felix bike path in Wall to connect out to Hospital Road and the Allaire trails.

 

[Ronnie_B]

I've heard about Allaire and getting lost. I also know it is very busy on weekends. My current plan when I retire is to get a small house in the Herbertsville section of Brick or near the Edgar Felix bike path in Wall to connect out to Hospital Road and the Allaire trails.

HA! My plan is eventually to move down by Atlantic Highlands so I can live right by Hartshorne and Huber. Good stuff.

 

[VirtualKnight]

For the guys looking for a challenge try Allamuchy State Park off Rt. 80 in Morris County. It's a hike to get there, but worth the trip. You will need a trail map and GPS as its a pretty large park. It has a variety of terrain from moderate to extremely difficult. Best suited for a bike with full suspension and hydraulic disk brakes and lock in pedals for the real men out there.

 

[Metropolitans3]

Back in 97 Trek was an American bike. They are made in China now and I don't see anyone riding them anymore out west.

Terrain out here (Lake Tahoe) is much more extreme. I see, in this area, mostly Specialized and Santa Cruz bikes with many Giant and GT along with fewer Yetis and an occasional Kona. 99% duel suspensions out here but in Jersey Shore you just need a decent hardtail.

Myself, I have a '14 Santa Cruz Heckler. Bottom of the line for them but it gets the job done for me. I'm very much a novice and do mostly cross country riding, when on the bike. Still, it can handle gnarly jumps and tabletops and boulders.

A Trek Fuel for straight-up cross country is still a great bike.

I have a Giant Trance 1 (27.5") that I use as my cross-country but its really more of an enduro/cross country mix. I rode it out in Moab, UT and it was fantastic. But when I ride cross-country with a bunch of people on 29ers, I have a hard time keeping up. 29ers, once they get going, are just sooo fast.
Moab:

My downhill bike is a Transition TR450 and I love it.

The peopler I know who ride Santa Cruz's swear by them. But they just got bought out by a larger company, so keep an eye on them going forward.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Looks like Jackson's off Amasa Back? Sick trail.

 

[Metropolitans3]

Looks like Jackson's off Amasa Back? Sick trail.

Portal off of Magnificent 7. That is the Colorado River below.

 

[_dave_]

Did not know that about Trek, thanks for the heads up. Checked out your bike, that looks like a pretty sweet ride, have been thinking of finally getting a new bike for next year, I think I'm going to look at the Santa Cruz Hecklers, not bad price.

The Heckler is a single pivot, which keeps the cost down a bit. They've been doing it for so long that they really do it right. It is hard for me to tell the difference between that and a virtual pivot, especially the way I ride. The next big price jump for me would be going all carbon, but that is a few years away for me. The only major upgrade I made was going with a dropper post. It's a must have if you do lots of hills but if not, then save the $300.

 

[FanuSanu52]

That's a pretty sick video. Do you remember which trails you rode in Sedona? There are so many trails out here, it will take a long time to hit them all. We have the Big Park Loop and the Bell Rock Trail out behind our house, and we are getting used to that. Connects to the Llama trail to Little Horse. I don't mind the climbing. It's a great workout. The Bell Rock Trail was kind of flowy, and we are going to connect out to the Templeton trail later this week. I wish I did not have to come back home. We love it here. Only problem is there are no jobs, except if you work in real estate or hospitality.

Re-reading my post, it seems I was kind of a first-class buzzkill. That wasn't my intention because Sedona is awesome, both for biking and in general. Some of my favorite camping anywhere is up over town. There are a few great spots right near where the Pink Jeep Tours stop for scenic lookouts.

I think it was Cathedral Rock/Templeton area where I rode. I parked down in Oak Creek village and started on a pretty wide, easy path alongside the highway, then crossed over into more of the singletrack/slickrock. And it's not that it wasn't a great ride, it's that the pictures show what looks to be some of the sweetest singletrack on Earth, but it just didn't really open up the way I expected. It looks like the perfect marriage of Moab-level slickrock and Fruita-style desert singletrack, but the flow wasn't quite the same. The scenery (and souvenir photos), on the other hand, are some of the best out there.

Hoping to get there again next year. Was camping there back in the spring, but unfortunately my bike was out of order at the time. Really want to try out some of the tougher rides, like Hangover.

 

[Ronnie_B]

Went to Hartshorne Woods - my happy place - yesterday for the first time since the blizzard, great day for a ride and unfortunately a bit crowded with hikers.

And speaking of hikers, if you're going to walk trails that you know are frequent with mountain bikers, why in the bloody hell are you wearing headphones listening to tunes???

First off your ears is the next to last line of defense in getting runned over by a mountain bike, your eyes being the last line but by that time it's probably too late.

And second, you're in the god damn woods, why aren't you fulling taking in nature sounds?? I don't understand this part at all.

Either way take out your headphones for your own safety, I can't tell you how dangerous it is not too.

 

[Knight Shift]

Went to Hartshorne Woods - my happy place - yesterday for the first time since the blizzard, great day for a ride and unfortunately a bit crowded with hikers.

And speaking of hikers, if you're going to walk trails that you know are frequent with mountain bikers, why in the bloody hell are you wearing headphones listening to tunes???

First off your ears is the next to last line of defense in getting runned over by a mountain bike, your eyes being the last line but by that time it's probably too late.

And second, you're in the god damn woods, why aren't you fulling taking in nature sounds?? I don't understand this part at all.

Either way take out your headphones for your own safety, I can't tell you how dangerous it is not too.

What time? I hit it about about 10 a.m. Got to get the ride in before 10 a.m. (I usually go before 7 a.m.) to avoid the crowds.

Hikers have the right of way--I get that--but do they have to walk 4-5 wide across the whole trail and look pissed off when a bike politely asks to pass? And dog walkers need to keep their dogs on a leash. I have had bad experiences with dogs, and I don't care that you think your doberman or pit bull looking dog muffy is "friendly." Get off my trails!!!!

 

[Ronnie_B]

What time? I hit it about about 10 a.m. Got to get the ride in before 10 a.m. (I usually go before 7 a.m.) to avoid the crowds.

Hikers have the right of way--I get that--but do they have to walk 4-5 wide across the whole trail and look pissed off when a bike politely asks to pass? And dog walkers need to keep their dogs on a leash. I have had bad experiences with dogs, and I don't care that you think your doberman or pit bull looking dog muffy is "friendly." Get off my trails!!!!

Around noonish but I'm realizing I need to hit it earlier, the park is starting to get popular and thus crowded, I'm hoping as it gets hotter more of them hit the beach.

 

[Knight Shift]

Around noonish but I'm realizing I need to hit it earlier, the park is starting to get popular and thus crowded, I'm hoping as it gets hotter more of them hit the beach.

The parking lot at the top near Battery Lewis was overflowing when I got up there. It was like that the previous weekend too. Once it is warm and light enough, I am getting out by 6-6:30 a.m. Also less traffic on the roads at that hour.

 

[Ronnie_B]

That's where I start and should have seen it when I left at 3pm, I think also the revamping of the Battery with the cannon is drawing big crowds. One reason I tend to wait till noon time is the hotter the better for me, I really do enjoy a good sweat and like to ride when the temperature is the highest on the day.

 

[CERU00]

A Trek Fuel for straight-up cross country is still a great bike.

I have a Giant Trance 1 (27.5") that I use as my cross-country but its really more of an enduro/cross country mix. I rode it out in Moab, UT and it was fantastic. But when I ride cross-country with a bunch of people on 29ers, I have a hard time keeping up. 29ers, once they get going, are just sooo fast.
Moab:

My downhill bike is a Transition TR450 and I love it.

The peopler I know who ride Santa Cruz's swear by them. But they just got bought out by a larger company, so keep an eye on them going forward.

I doubt there are any bikes under $1k still made in US. I think there is a couple of frame manufacturers in Taiwan or China that made a very percentage of bike frames sold in the world.

I bought a Trek xcalibur 27.5 on closeout for under $700. It's performed very well for a very solid entry level and the hydraulic brakes are quite nice..

 

[_dave_]

Ahh, this thread again.

Just wanted to suggest checking out mtb project. They have a rapidly growing website and app for iPhone and android showing trails that may be new to you.

Also, a sister app which is trail runner project, which has some overlap.

 

[beaced]

Mountain biking in NJ? Tough one.First you have to find a mountain. To do that you have to go to Pa.:sunglasses:

 

[RUSK97]

Aside from those trails already mentioned in this thread, I'd like to add Round Valley Reservoir's Cushetunk trail as one of my favorites.

 

[RUSK97]

I doubt there are any bikes under $1k still made in US. I think there is a couple of frame manufacturers in Taiwan or China that made a very percentage of bike frames sold in the world.

I bought a Trek xcalibur 27.5 on closeout for under $700. It's performed very well for a very solid entry level and the hydraulic brakes are quite nice..

IMHO, big, big, BIG difference between frames made in Taiwan versus China. Carbon technology has closed the gap a smidge, but Taiwanese-welded frames typically have clean, solid joints. Like 90% of most anything else coming from China, those frames are crap.

 

[CERU00]

IMHO, big, big, BIG difference between frames made in Taiwan versus China. Carbon technology has closed the gap a smidge, but Taiwanese-welded frames typically have clean, solid joints. Like 90% of most anything else coming from China, those frames are crap.

You are absolutely right about very significant step change between Taiwanese and Chinese frames. But if you want an American made frame you're limited to the highest end bikes and you'll pay through the nose..

 

[Knight Shift]

Seems there is a contingent of Monmouth County bikers on this thread. Where do you guys get your bike serviced?