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OT: RU Law professpr to ban laptops in classroom

M

mdk01

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Aug 18, 2011
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In the op ed section of today's WSJ, which I can't link. The basis can best be summarized by what he observed when he monitored younger professors' classes.

"I recently saw one student systematically checking law-firm websites for summer-associate salaries. Another spent the entire class streaming an NHL hockey game."
 
I wonder if you can video tape the classroom leactures. I could never listen to the lecture and take good notes at the same time or just couldn't write fast enough.
 
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rutgersdave said:
I wonder if you can video tape the classroom leactures. I could never listen to the lecture and take good notes at the same time or just couldn't write fast enough.
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Same thing. and for the teachers who used ppt, it would have been much easier if they gave you the slides before the lecture so your notes could be made in connection with the slide/point in reference.

If the only purpose of the laptop (from the teaching/course standpoint) is taking notes, maybe they can just disable the wifi or something to not allow net surfing?
 
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Or just use a notepad and pen.

or for high tech... a tablet and a pen.

It is harder to hide goofing off on a table.
 
mdk01 said:
In the op ed section of today's WSJ, which I can't link. The basis can best be summarized by what he observed when he monitored younger professors' classes.

"I recently saw one student systematically checking law-firm websites for summer-associate salaries. Another spent the entire class streaming an NHL hockey game."
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You can also do this with a cell phone. Ban cell phones? In a few years you'll likely be able to do this on your smart watch. Micro managers will always find something to manage.
 
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jtung230 said:
As long as they are not disturbing other students they can do whatever they want.
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The professor believes they are disturbing other students. From the article: The study also found that “participants who were in direct view of a multitasking peer scored lower on a test compared with those who were not.” So the student with the game on his laptop is also making it harder for the student sitting behind him to focus.
 
funny... and i got a true story

10 years ago Dina Long(current mayor of Sea Bright and former councel woman)

i was in her writing class at Brookdale and each station had a computer obviously with internet

so i'm playing an online game called pimpwar (www.pimpwar.com) and listening to music through ear buds and youtube

had no clue what she was lecturing about as my attention was focused on the game and music.... SOOOO i hear her speak up and say "MR. ********, so what do you think the perfect woman is?" (she was lecturing about what is considered the ideal woman)

sooooooo like in my typical way of responding i look to her and say "36-26-36"

and the dudes in the class bust out laughing, she has a shocked look on her face and the girls in the class are confused as hell cuz they had no idea wtf that meant.. so she said "ok, ten minute break".. and a few of a the girls were like "what does that mean?" to which Dina replied "I'll explain when the guys are gone"

ended up getting an A in the course:cool2:
 
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Stupid.

It was so much easier to take notes on laptop. And I streamed RU games in the background (as did other fans of other schools/sports). When the US was in the World Cup my company at the time allowed everyone to take their laptop into a conference room and watch. Good students can multitask because you need to do that as a professional. And even still, I would only do that when the professor would go off on tangents and not discuss the material, mostly because they were pushed by some irrational gunner or ideologue.

There is so much wrong with how law school goes in this country.
 
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NotInRHouse said:
It was so much easier to take notes on laptop. And I streamed RU games in the background (as did other fans of other schools/sports). When the US was in the World Cup my company at the time allowed everyone to take their laptop into a conference room and watch. Good students can multitask because you need to do that as a professional.
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This actually explains a lot.
 
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NotInRHouse said:
Stupid.

It was so much easier to take notes on laptop. And I streamed RU games in the background (as did other fans of other schools/sports). When the US was in the World Cup my company at the time allowed everyone to take their laptop into a conference room and watch. Good students can multitask because you need to do that as a professional. And even still, I would only do that when the professor would go off on tangents and not discuss the material, mostly because they were pushed by some irrational gunner or ideologue.

There is so much wrong with how law school goes in this country.
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There is no such thing as multitasking. The human brain is not biologically capable of it. When people say they "multitask" they are doing a little of one thing and then a little of the other in sequence and often poorly. Single core computers are the same way.

Good students don't "multitask". What they do is focus on ONE thing at a time for a good stretch and then they focus on something else for a good stretch. This thing of good students "doing a little bit here and a little bit there " and somehow retaining that information long term is a fallacy.

That's not how long-term memory works in the human brain. It may work with short term memory while cramming the night before the exam but then you're not really retaining anything long term.
 
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Upstream said:
The professor believes they are disturbing other students. From the article: The study also found that “participants who were in direct view of a multitasking peer scored lower on a test compared with those who were not.” So the student with the game on his laptop is also making it harder for the student sitting behind him to focus.
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Complete BS. The professor doesn't give a sh1t about your grades. It is more about the professor's ego.
 
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jtung230 said:
Complete BS. The professor doesn't give a sh1t about your grades. It is more about the professor's ego.
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Never took one of Green's courses so I can't speak to his ego.. but I recall taking a handful of classes with his colleagues in which laptop use wasn't permitted and, to my knowledge, none of them have submitted any opinion pieces to the WSJ.
 
Pretty sure the students are paying to go to class. If they want to spend that kind of money to watch a hockey game...oh well. As long as they aren't disrupting other students opportunity to concentrate who cares.
 
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Unbelievable. Students at a flagship state U need to show respect and focus on listening to the prof and on taking notes. If notetaking can be done via laptop, great. But that's it. Using the laptop for anything else is disrespectful to the prof, the program, and the institution. Having taught at a state u for a few years, if a student did that laptop nonsense in my class, I would have blown a gasket.
 
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R1776U said:
funny... and i got a true story

10 years ago Dina Long(current mayor of Sea Bright and former councel woman)

i was in her writing class at Brookdale and each station had a computer obviously with internet

so i'm playing an online game called pimpwar (www.pimpwar.com) and listening to music through ear buds and youtube

had no clue what she was lecturing about as my attention was focused on the game and music.... SOOOO i hear her speak up and say "MR. ********, so what do you think the perfect woman is?" (she was lecturing about what is considered the ideal woman)

sooooooo like in my typical way of responding i look to her and say "36-26-36"

and the dudes in the class bust out laughing, she has a shocked look on her face and the girls in the class are confused as hell cuz they had no idea wtf that meant.. so she said "ok, ten minute break".. and a few of a the girls were like "what does that mean?" to which Dina replied "I'll explain when the guys are gone"

ended up getting an A in the course:cool2:
Click to expand...
:joy::joy::joy:
 
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I
Abro1975 said:
@RUinPinehurst, I know it's OT, but what ever happened to the UNC phony class scandal?
Did they skate like most predicted?
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I believe UNC has until the end of July to respond to the NCAA's ANOA. Hard to say how it'll play out. As you know, the NCAA had substantially abbreviated the allegations as outlined in the original NOA, removing specific references to FB and MBB although keeping references to WBB, and also changing the timeline of the infractions. One might "think" UNC's legal team (headed by former NCAA staff) worked the NCAA into submission, to the point where any punishment could be minimal, given the scope and length of the cheating. One might also "think" the NCAA may urge its COI to hand down significant punishment, despite the apparently effective UNC legal maneuvering. Ultimately, the COI acts independently from the NCAA. UNC still faces five "Level One" infractions including the biggy: LOIC. Much TBD. I'd really like to hear the NCAA's explanation of "why" the NOA was so drastically changed.
 
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Blitz8RUCrazy said:
There is no such thing as multitasking. The human brain is not biologically capable of it. When people say they "multitask" they are doing a little of one thing and then a little of the other in sequence and often poorly. Single core computers are the same way.

Good students don't "multitask". What they do is focus on ONE thing at a time for a good stretch and then they focus on something else for a good stretch. This thing of good students "doing a little bit here and a little bit there " and somehow retaining that information long term is a fallacy.

That's not how long-term memory works in the human brain. It may work with short term memory while cramming the night before the exam but then you're not really retaining anything long term.
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Not sure I agree. You mean to say when you are on this site, your time is only here and not doing work, texting, playing music, etc, at the same time? Or say when a game is on TV that you are not here, typing and watching?
 
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NotInRHouse said:
Not sure I agree. You mean to say when you are on this site, your time is only here and not doing work, texting, playing music, etc, at the same time? Or say when a game is on TV that you are not here, typing and watching?
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What he's saying is you don't actually do two active things at once. You text, then you focus your attention back onto the message board. You do some work, then you flip to the message board. You watch the game, then you look away and post on the board. You can multitask to some extent with one active action and one passive (i.e. listening to music or the game).

I think for the most part, he's right. What people call "multitasking" is really just splitting your attention between multiple activities over the same time period, not actually performing them at the same time.
 
We are lucky we have MOOCs. I am telling kids to just take MOOC courses you like and become the next Steve Jobs. Why waste time, money and energy taking courses for a degree that is useless anyway.
 
Blitz8RUCrazy said:
There is no such thing as multitasking. The human brain is not biologically capable of it. When people say they "multitask" they are doing a little of one thing and then a little of the other in sequence and often poorly. Single core computers are the same way.

Good students don't "multitask". What they do is focus on ONE thing at a time for a good stretch and then they focus on something else for a good stretch. This thing of good students "doing a little bit here and a little bit there " and somehow retaining that information long term is a fallacy.

That's not how long-term memory works in the human brain. It may work with short term memory while cramming the night before the exam but then you're not really retaining anything long term.
Click to expand...

Luckily you've never tried to fly a plane.

Trust me, multitasking definitely exists.
 
I thought that, as a prof, I'd contribute my two cents.

Students are free to use laptops in my classes. I know it is hard to take notes by hand, especially these days when students are generally not good at cursive. I have bad handwriting and would have really loved to have taken notes by laptop.

In my opening announcements, I ask students not to use their laptops for other purposes. I point out that they are hurting not just themselves, but those around them by distracting others.

I have a number of colleagues who ban laptops. My feeling that if I am a good teacher, my students will pay attention to me no matter what the potential distraction. I have been told by observers that few if any of my students surf the web or read e-mail during class.
 
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I guess I feel like students should be able to use a laptop, but should restrict themselves to taking notes. If the student isn't going to pay attention, then just skip the class.

I have mixed feelings about this. If a student can skip all the classes and still do well on all the tests, then maybe that's okay. After all, the student is paying for the option. However, a good professor teaches way more than what can be verified on tests. So if two students get 'A's on all tests, but one student has shown up and paid attention, that student has probably achieved more learning than the non-attending student.
 
mildone said:
I guess I feel like students should be able to use a laptop, but should restrict themselves to taking notes. If the student isn't going to pay attention, then just skip the class.

I have mixed feelings about this. If a student can skip all the classes and still do well on all the tests, then maybe that's okay. After all, the student is paying for the option. However, a good professor teaches way more than what can be verified on tests. So if two students get 'A's on all tests, but one student has shown up and paid attention, that student has probably achieved more learning than the non-attending student.
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Distracted is distracted. There's really no difference between using a laptop in class for whatever and showing up for class with a righteous buzz and using the time to pick up girls.
 
Have you folks ever heard of "asshole bingo?" It 's a game that students used to play in which students would guess who would be the next to volunteer in class. (A colleague tells me that a winner once yelled out "Bingo!" in class.) My colleagues think that computers are "addictive," and therefore a worse distraction, but I am not sure that's true. I tend not to lecture, but instead to call on students working up and down the rows, and that seems effective in keeping their attention. I think more profs should do that, although I wonder how well it would work in the sciences and engineering in which the professor has a great deal of information to impart.
 
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camdenlawprof said:
Have you folks ever heard of "asshole bingo?" It 's a game that students used to play in which students would guess who would be the next to volunteer in class. (A colleague tells me that a winner once yelled out "Bingo!" in class.) My colleagues think that computers are "addictive," and therefore a worse distraction, but I am not sure that's true. I tend not to lecture, but instead to call on students working up and down the rows, and that seems effective in keeping their attention. I think more profs should do that, although I wonder how well it would work in the sciences and engineering in which the professor has a great deal of information to impart.
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We called it gunner bingo. I used to always sit with the same group 1L, and we would give each other a look in anticipation of the gunner.

One professor ripped one of the bigger gunners once. Don't you guys get annoyed when it's the same handful trying to make themselves sound smart?

IIRC you teach con law in which case I'm sure there is a hardened R or two and a few hardened Ds who go at it (sometimes entertaining but not with 10 minutes to lunch). Con law also engages more students than say civ pro, which was the class where I found myself online the most.
 
NotInRHouse said:
We called it gunner bingo. I used to always sit with the same group 1L, and we would give each other a look in anticipation of the gunner.

One professor ripped one of the bigger gunners once. Don't you guys get annoyed when it's the same handful trying to make themselves sound smart?

IIRC you teach con law in which case I'm sure there is a hardened R or two and a few hardened Ds who go at it (sometimes entertaining but not with 10 minutes to lunch). Con law also engages more students than say civ pro, which was the class where I found myself online the most.
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No, I don't teach Con Law. I teach Property, which is much less ideological. (I also teach Administrative Law, and either Environmental Law or Estates and Trusts). I notice that "gunners" are often out to lunch or on an ego trip. That's why I take the initiative of calling on people. One nice thing about it is that the class gets to hear from students who are naturally quiet but sometimes super smart. I also think that calling on people helps dispel concerns that law school classes are "sexist" because men talk more; I get to hear from the women too, almost all of whom are quiet. Frankly, the women in law school are better than the men in my experience. That's because women tend to have better study habits than guys do.
 
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camdenlawprof said:
No, I don't teach Con Law. I teach Property, which is much less ideological. (I also teach Administrative Law, and either Environmental Law or Estates and Trusts). I notice that "gunners" are often out to lunch or on an ego trip. That's why I take the initiative of calling on people. One nice thing about it is that the class gets to hear from students who are naturally quiet but sometimes super smart. I also think that calling on people helps dispel concerns that law school classes are "sexist" because men talk more; I get to hear from the women too, almost all of whom are quiet. Frankly, the women in law school are better than the men in my experience. That's because women tend to have better study habits than guys do.
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Ah ok. I didn't particularly like the lectures in property. Honestly, does anyone really understand the Rule of Perpetuities? Though we should all pay attention because I think almost everyone aspires to own real property and inherit in some way.

Socratic is probably the fairest way, and I agree I think the female students are more diligent and a lot of them are fantastic lawyers. It drives me crazy to think of the sexism in some firms and some parts of the country that are still around, they're only hurting themselves.
 
I'll explain the rule to you any time. A substantial majority of students get it in my class. It's important to know the Rule even in states like New Jersey that have abolished it. What throws law students is that the Rule rests on mathematical logic: one must show that it is *impossible* that the interest could vest too late: that it logically *must* either vest or fail no later than 21 years after the end of some life in being at the interest's creation.

I don't know how much outright sexism there is, but certainly a female lawyer is disadvantaged if she picks "the mommy track." I think in general we should be doing more to make it easier financially to have children. We'd be essentially at zero population growth were it not for immigrants.
 
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I may take you up on the offer one day when I begin worrying about drafting and it will come into play. If your students are getting it, then I can understand why they are not surfing the net, you must be doing a great job!
 
NotInRHouse said:
I may take you up on the offer one day when I begin worrying about drafting and it will come into play. If your students are getting it, then I can understand why they are not surfing the net, you must be doing a great job!
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To be blunt, the rule should never come into play. All a lawyer needs to do is draft a savings clause: "all interests created by this instrument that are subject to the Rule Against Perpetuities terminate 21 years after the deaths of the parties to this agreement or their descendants living at the date this instrument goes into effect." That makes the longest-lived the validating life; vesting cannot occur more than 21 years after their deaths. Remember to put it into any option agreement you may draft, because options are (stupidly enough) subject to the Rule Against Perpetuities.

Thank you for the compliment. Once we've worked a few problems, students get the rule.
 
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