OT: Saratoga Raceway - Graveyard of Champions claims another victim

[RU31trap]

Went to Saratoga to watch American Pharoah run in the Travers Stakes. Unfortunately for Bob Baffert and Zayat Family things did not go as planned. Pressed and bumped by Frosted an exhausted Pharoah got beaten by Keen Ice by 1 length.

My opinion: I saw a little burnout at the Haskell and at the Travers it was real obvious. I'm not an authority but the colt looked a bit undertrained and tired. I was hoping to see this colt run in the Breeders Cup Classic but I have a feeling that he's going to be retired.

 

[Knight_Light]

Went to Saratoga to watch American Pharoah run in the Travers Stakes. Unfortunately for Bob Baffert and Zayat Family things did not go as planned. Pressed and bumped by Frosted an exhausted Pharoah got beaten by Keen Ice by 1 length.

My opinion: I saw a little burnout at the Haskell and at the Travers it was real obvious. I'm not an authority but the colt looked a bit undertrained and tired. I was hoping to see this colt run in the Breeders Cup Classic but I have a feeling that he's going to be retired.

Since the Breeder's Cup is in 2 months (on Halloween), I hope Zayat/Baffert take their time before deciding if he should race then....give him a few weeks of rest and see how he takes to a training regiment then.

AP has run a lot since first Sat in May and even his Saratoga performance yesterday at 1 1/4, was still about 1.5 seconds faster than what he did in the Derby...but that extra 1/8 seems to take a lot out of him (maybe better suited for 1 Mile or 1 1/8 mile runs.

His stud deal was signed even before the Belmont so maybe he can run the $1 Million Breeder Cup Mile on that Saturday instead of the $2 Million 1 1/4 Mile Breeder Cup Classic.

 

[Jumba72]

He still ran a great race HOY should be automatic. Loved the winner with the rider change and added distance.

 

[RU Husky]

I've made a lot of money betting Dale Roman's horses in the exotics- exactas, trifectas and superfectas. Didn't expect Keen Ice to win, but he worked out well in my exacta box.

 

[bac2therac]

its bs to retire him now because he lost..he has two months to get in gear, that's plenty of time. Perhaps his connections were just a bit too cocky and overconfident. He is a great horse who did what no one thought could be done anymore but I think racing him in the Travers was a mistake given the amount of racing he did the previous few months

 

[bitnez]

It's no surprise he lost. Affirmed, Slew and even Secretariat all lost in their 3 year old campaigns after winning triple crown. Rest up and run him back in the Classic.

 

[wheezer]

It's no surprise he lost. Affirmed, Slew and even Secretariat all lost in their 3 year old campaigns after winning triple crown. Rest up and run him back in the Classic.

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Secretariat was sick and should have been scratched

 

[bitnez]

Didnt Secretariat lose twice? Amazing horse but all of the greats lose. It's no knock to lose.

 

[albanyknight]

The last Triple Crown winner to win the Travers was back in the 1940's. A lot of pressure was put on American Pharoah by NYRA to run. The graveyard of champions is well earned.

 

[ho26rus]

In the breeders game and the money on the line there is absolutely nothing at all to be gained. He is hall of fame, great champion but breeders would like to retire with this record

Lets suppose something minor goes wrong you do not want to see a seventh by 5 as his last race.
Coolmoor, who holds the breeding rights is suggesting the stud fee may be as high as 200,000

Absurd but he has star quality it seems like it may be a reality

 

[RU Husky]

Didnt Secretariat lose twice? Amazing horse but all of the greats lose. It's no knock to lose.

Secretariat lost 4 races.
His remarkable racing record was 21 races: 16 1st, 3 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 out of the money. He finished 4th in his first race as a 2 year old . His other losses were a second to Stop the Music in the Champagne as a 2 year old, third in the Wood Memorial as a 3 year old (won by his stablemate), a 2nd in the Whitney to Onion as a 3 year old, and 2nd to Prove Out in the Woodward as a 3 year old . He still holds the records for the fastest Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont. His Belmont time and margin of victory may never be surpassed.

There are American horses with better racing records- Native Dancer:22 races: 21 wins, 1 second; Man O War: 21 races:20 wins ,1 loss; Zenyatta:20 races: 19 wins, 1 second; and Personal Ensign, an amazing filly, was undefeated at 13-0

It seems that in the last 20 years or so, the really good horses are much, much more lightly raced than in the past. The great Kelso, albeit a gelding, raced 63 times. Affirmed, another triple crown winner, raced 29 times.

 

[bitnez]

The history of horse racing is great. Man O' War's sole loss came to a horse named Upset. For many years people thought that the sports term "upset", i.e., an underdog winning, derived from Upset's win over Man O' War. That has since been debunked, but it's still a fun little "factoid" to throw around.

 

[wheezer]

Secretariat lost 4 races.
His remarkable racing record was 21 races: 16 1st, 3 2nd, 1 3rd, 1 out of the money. He finished 4th in his first race as a 2 year old . His other losses were a second to Stop the Music in the Champagne as a 2 year old, third in the Wood Memorial as a 3 year old (won by his stablemate), a 2nd in the Whitney to Onion as a 3 year old, and 2nd to Prove Out in the Woodward as a 3 year old . He still holds the records for the fastest Kentucky Derby, Preakness and Belmont. His Belmont time and margin of victory may never be surpassed.

There are American horses with better racing records- Native Dancer:22 races: 21 wins, 1 second; Man O War: 21 races:20 wins ,1 loss; Zenyatta:20 races: 19 wins, 1 second; and Personal Ensign, an amazing filly, was undefeated at 13-0

It seems that in the last 20 years or so, the really good horses are much, much more lightly raced than in the past. The great Kelso, albeit a gelding, raced 63 times. Affirmed, another triple crown winner, raced 29 times.

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I believe that at his peak Secretariat was the best race horse ever..... I don't care about the four losses, winning percentage, etc.....at the time of the triple crown, you could have put any of these other horses mentioned against him,and he would have beaten them

Pull a horse out of time, put him in that Belmont and tell us who would have won, is the question I always ask

Someone could argue about a better overall record but Secretariat was the king

 

[billhobo]

Since the Breeder's Cup is in 2 months (on Halloween), I hope Zayat/Baffert take their time before deciding if he should race then....give him a few weeks of rest and see how he takes to a training regiment then.

AP has run a lot since first Sat in May and even his Saratoga performance yesterday at 1 1/4, was still about 1.5 seconds faster than what he did in the Derby...but that extra 1/8 seems to take a lot out of him (maybe better suited for 1 Mile or 1 1/8 mile runs.

His stud deal was signed even before the Belmont so maybe he can run the $1 Million Breeder Cup Mile on that Saturday instead of the $2 Million 1 1/4 Mile Breeder Cup Classic.

Dirt Mile's out of the question, and the Classic's worth $5 million (not $2 million); figure AP runs there. Otherwise, to build on your point, this year's Travers time was 2nd fastest in 20 years, so I just think Frosted determinedly softened up Pharoah enough for Keen Ice to win. The leaders ran in 23.1 in the third quarter and 23.3 in the fourth quarter mile, so all you can do is credit Javier for putting Keen in a great position to pounce this time.

IMO, I think the tail wagged the horse here a bit in that Baffert doesn't fare well at Saratoga to begin with and he'd have rather skipped if not for the pressure from Ahmed Zayat and the public. Victor's post-race comments were equally telling. Now, the move back to Cali (yet another set of flights for AP) rather than stabling AP at Churchill (nearer the BC in Lexington and his home base during the TC season) is another peculiar move. I just hope all of the travel didn't wear AP down for the Breeders Cup Classic, assuming that's his next and final race.

 

[RU Husky]

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I believe that at his peak Secretariat was the best race horse ever..... I don't care about the four losses, winning percentage, etc.....at the time of the triple crown, you could have put any of these other horses mentioned against him,and he would have beaten them

Pull a horse out of time, put him in that Belmont and tell us who would have won, is the question I always ask

Someone could argue about a better overall record but Secretariat was the king

He was the best I ever saw and I've been watching the ponies since Native Dancer. I was on the rail near the finish line at Pimlico for the Preakness and watching Secretariat roar by twice was one of my greatest racing moments. Another, more recent one, was being at Santa Anita in 2009 when Zenyatta beat the boys to win the Breeder's Cup Classic. She was last on the far turn and made an incredibly powerful move under Mike Smith to catch Gio Ponte and run away with the win. The following year in the Classic , she got nipped at the wire and lost to Blame in one of the most heartbreaking losses ever.

 

[RU31trap]

Dirt Mile's out of the question, and the Classic's worth $5 million (not $2 million); figure AP runs there. Otherwise, to build on your point, this year's Travers time was 2nd fastest in 20 years, so I just think Frosted determinedly softened up Pharoah enough for Keen Ice to win. The leaders ran in 23.1 in the third quarter and 23.3 in the fourth quarter mile, so all you can do is credit Javier for putting Keen in a great position to pounce this time.

IMO, I think the tail wagged the horse here a bit in that Baffert doesn't fare well at Saratoga to begin with and he'd have rather skipped if not for the pressure from Ahmed Zayat and the public. Victor's post-race comments were equally telling. Now, the move back to Cali (yet another set of flights for AP) rather than stabling AP at Churchill (nearer the BC in Lexington and his home base during the TC season) is another peculiar move. I just hope all of the travel didn't wear AP down for the Breeders Cup Classic, assuming that's his next and final race.

I agree 100%. Why wouldn't he stable AP at Churchill Downs instead of flying the horse back to the West Coast? I also disagree with his move of bringing American Pharoah to Saratoga three days before the race. Well, I'm not in a position to question Bob Baffert's experience. But I will say this if he stayed at Delmar and raced in the Delmar classic against older horses I believe that Filly Beholder would have beaten him.

 

[Knight_Light]

Good news for AP fans is Baffert said today AP is on a practice schedule to run in the Breeders Cup Classic


Of.course a lot of time between then and now but I was.glad to hear this.