RU Hoops Talent

[Section114]

I have heard many posters on here say that we really have no B1G talent. I have also been critical of EJ's recruiting, but then started thinking about this past years class....

Corey Sanders, Jonathan Laurent, DeShawn Freeman, Nigel Johnson (transfer)

It would seem to me, that ALL of these guys are B1G caliber players, albeit we have not seen Johnson.

While only Corey may have the potential to be the Alpha of the group- it isn't a bad class. I also think Mike Williams is P5 talent, Foreman has the physical attributes, but really needs to be better fundamentally.

Just wondering what others think?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Work in progress. Many have said, and i agree, we have a problem getting kids to play as seniors. Especially 4 year seniors. Only 2 of those 4 have a chance to give us 4 years.

1 thing overlooked. yes injuries have depleted us. Nigel Johnson's scholarship could be someone that is helping us right now. Instead it was used on a guy for the future. He needs to give us 2 really good years as he is taking 3 years of a slot.

As for talent...based on what i see we have enough talent, if coached up, to get out of the 11-14 area, but not much more.

There are 13 pretty stacked with talent teams in the B1G. We are trying to get in the same area with talent. While we are waiting we have to start laying the foundation on how a winning team plays the game.

 

[bac2therac]

bottom line is we have less talent overall than the rest of the league and arguably a coach in the bottom 4. We aren't recruiting enough talent to keep make up ground with the rest of the league. Only Sanders would start on other Big 10 teams, not all of them either. Freeman would start on half the teams but that's it. Williams would be a 8 minute player. Laurent 5 minutes. The talent really isn't there. Relying on the promise of a transfer who didn't exactly light it up at his old school is setting oneself up for disappointment.

 

[PatrickRU92]

bottom line is we have less talent overall than the rest of the league and arguably a coach in the bottom 4. We aren't recruiting enough talent to keep make up ground with the rest of the league. Only Sanders would start on other Big 10 teams, not all of them either. Freeman would start on half the teams but that's it. Williams would be a 8 minute player. Laurent 5 minutes. The talent really isn't there. Relying on the promise of a transfer who didn't exactly light it up at his old school is setting oneself up for disappointment.

I'm sorry to agree with this, although Laurent as a Jr or Sr is not a 5 min player I don't think. maybe as a frosh he is.

How many times am I going to keep saying this? Our problem is and always has been RECRUITING. We get occasional good players, a rare GREAT player (Douby, possibly Sanders), and then we fill up the rest of the roster with players who when they are in the game have no impact upon the game (or even worse, a negative impact). you simply can't win like this. Even if some who left or transferred stayed 4 years we wouldn't be that much better. We always seem to rely on 1 or 2 players to score the bulk of our points and that's been forever. We need recruiting classes (multiple) with 1 great player each and 3 or 4 good players. Recruiting is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Right now we are in double trouble and there is no doubt the injuries have killed us, it was especially obvious in the last game IMHO where athletically and depth wise we were overwhelmed. And it's not too surprising , Matta recruits from a completely different universe than we do.

No coach is going to dig us out of this hole until we start putting multiple players on the court at the same time who are physically able to score. That means 4 or 5. Not 1 or 2 (or even sometimes ZERO with us!!)

I was hopeful with Sanders, Laurent, Freeman (Hopefully Johnson will be good--who knows) that we were on our way. But the lack of recruiting for this year is a real downer. Are we going to just add more filler spots (just to have a full roster)? We don't need that. We need impact and we need them NEXT YEAR. if we don't we will be better next year but only marginally.

 

[78CollegeAve]

Johnson was playing 18 mpg and averaging 5 points for an average B12 team as a soph. Really questionable whether he is a B1G talent. Ditto for Laurent who, unfortunately, may be forced to play out of position for a long time.

 

[bac2therac]

I'm sorry to agree with this, although Laurent as a Jr or Sr is not a 5 min player I don't think. maybe as a frosh he is.

How many times am I going to keep saying this? Our problem is and always has been RECRUITING. We get occasional good players, a rare GREAT player (Douby, possibly Sanders), and then we fill up the rest of the roster with players who when they are in the game have no impact upon the game (or even worse, a negative impact). you simply can't win like this. Even if some who left or transferred stayed 4 years we wouldn't be that much better. We always seem to rely on 1 or 2 players to score the bulk of our points and that's been forever. We need recruiting classes (multiple) with 1 great player each and 3 or 4 good players. Recruiting is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Right now we are in double trouble and there is no doubt the injuries have killed us, it was especially obvious in the last game IMHO where athletically and depth wise we were overwhelmed. And it's not too surprising , Matta recruits from a completely different universe than we do.

No coach is going to dig us out of this hole until we start putting multiple players on the court at the same time who are physically able to score. That means 4 or 5. Not 1 or 2 (or even sometimes ZERO with us!!)

I was hopeful with Sanders, Laurent, Freeman (Hopefully Johnson will be good--who knows) that we were on our way. But the lack of recruiting for this year is a real downer. Are we going to just add more filler spots (just to have a full roster)? We don't need that. We need impact and we need them NEXT YEAR. if we don't we will be better next year but only marginally.

if Jordan was bringing Parker in next year along with a top 100 power forward, I would say he is on to something and has a shot but hes not and that why he will fail even if he gets more time. You cant go 0 fer in a recruiting class. Remember Freeman is most likely gone after next year so who is replacing him. I really worry about that. Our center position needs to be upgraded drastically. Doorson and Diallo are guys who if they do blossom it wont be until their senior years. Its a big worry there. I worry about transfers because every year there are transfers. I worry about injuries lingering in some players because that happens half the time

 

[RutgHoops]

In the last 10 years we have gotten less than 15 kids who were recruited as frosh to Senior Day.

Denzel Valentine, a likely first team All Big 10 player, averaged 5ppg as a frosh and 8ppg on 40% shooting as a Sophomore. Nigel Hayes, another possible first team All Big 10 player averaged 7 ppg as a frosh. Yogi Ferrell averaged less than 8ppg as a frosh. Jake Layman averaged 5.5ppg for Maryland as a frosh. Bronson Koenig averaged less than 4ppg as a frosh and under 9ppg as a Soph. Jarrod Utoff from Iowa averaged under 8ppg as a frosh.

Every one of those players is likely to be a 1st or 2nd team All-Big 10 player as an upperclassman. I can go on and on and on.

Drawing the final verdicts on kids in their frosh and/or soph years is misguided and silly. I don't care who is the HC of this team, Rutgers is NOT winning in this league with a team dominated by freshman and sophomores. Just not happening.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

one thing about your analysis...in most cases the lower stats and/or playing time is largely a function of having loaded rosters and better players ahead of them.

the players you listed above would have made immediate impacts at Rutgers with gaudy per game #s....maybe not hayes.

 

[B1GNJHoops]

one thing about your analysis...in most cases the lower stats and/or playing time is largely a function of having loaded rosters and better players ahead of them.

the players you listed above would have made immediate impacts at Rutgers with gaudy per game #s....maybe not hayes.

Good point. And Rutgers can keep freshmen until their senior seasons and it won't matter if we have a bad staff that can't develop them properly (or lose so much where they get mentally beaten down), or subpar facilities to enhance their skill from diet to strength training to whatever.

 

[RUChoppin]

In the last 10 years we have gotten less than 15 kids who were recruited as frosh to Senior Day.

Denzel Valentine, a likely first team All Big 10 player, averaged 5ppg as a frosh and 8ppg on 40% shooting as a Sophomore. Nigel Hayes, another possible first team All Big 10 player averaged 7 ppg as a frosh. Yogi Ferrell averaged less than 8ppg as a frosh. Jake Layman averaged 5.5ppg for Maryland as a frosh. Bronson Koenig averaged less than 4ppg as a frosh and under 9ppg as a Soph. Jarrod Utoff from Iowa averaged under 8ppg as a frosh.

Every one of those players is likely to be a 1st or 2nd team All-Big 10 player as an upperclassman. I can go on and on and on.

Drawing the final verdicts on kids in their frosh and/or soph years is misguided and silly. I don't care who is the HC of this team, Rutgers is NOT winning in this league with a team dominated by freshman and sophomores. Just not happening.

Recruiting is big, but retention is probably just as big.

Corey Sanders is exceptional, and would do well on a Big Ten team stacked with upperclassmen at the other positions. Surrounded by other underclassmen, and a lack of bigs, he's limited. Not just from what he can accomplish this year, but how much he can develop this year.

Freeman is very good, and could probably do well on another Big Ten team, and fight for his minutes against other upperclassmen. He would be a starter on several Big Ten teams, but a sixth man on on others.

No one else is ready "out of the box" to be a significant player on other Big Ten teams. Some may fight for minutes right now (Laurent, Williams, Foreman), but would be behind others on the depth chart trying to develop their skills to earn more time as juniors and seniors.

The problem is, we don't have any upperclassmen to lean on, so these guys are thrust into the fire too early. Would be nice to have an upperclassman Junior Etou right now, for instance - but even then, the 2012 and 2013 classes were basically empty, so there wouldn't have been any Juniors or Seniors available, anyway (other than Etou).

 

[RutgHoops]

one thing about your analysis...in most cases the lower stats and/or playing time is largely a function of having loaded rosters and better players ahead of them.

the players you listed above would have made immediate impacts at Rutgers with gaudy per game #s....maybe not hayes.

GRFIG,

Even as frosh/sophs the entirety of my list played pretty big minutes. Valentine 20.8/29.4 mpg. Hayes 17.4 mpg. Ferrell 28.1 mpg. Layman 19.9 mpg. Koenig 15.5/28.8. Utoff 18.2.

In 18.2 mpg as a frosh Utoff averages 7.6ppg/4.6 rig. As a Junior he is playing 29.3mpg and averaging 18.4 ppg/6.4rpg. Valentine as a Soph averages 29.4 mpg with 8ppg/6rpg/40.8%FG. As a Senior in 30.5mpg he is averaging 17.6ppg/7.6rpg/44.8%FG.

Again I can go on an on. Sure these guys played with other talented players and that likely impacts their stats. No argument. But WE need to get to a place where Eli Carter isn't playing big minutes/relied upon to be the leading scorer because Mike Rosario is still on the team. The "good old days" saw a kid like Quincy Douby coming off the bench as a Frosh because the team had guys like Shields ahead of him. How does that NIT Finals team do without Upperclassmen like Herve and Axani and Shields?

For more than a decade now a kid like Douby not only comes in and starts, but is our leading scorer and best player on the team (i.e Corey Sanders, Eli Carter, Mike Rosario). That cycle needs to stop.

 

[RutgHoops]

I'll add Mike Rice's 1st class (I consider it his 1st) was ranked in the Top 25 in the country. Seagears, Mack, Jack, Randall and Lewis were all Rivals Top 150 players. And Eli Carter may have been the best of the bunch. AND I actually thought Rice could coach.

Those classes first two years: 14-18/6-12 and 15-16/5-13. And while that is worlds better than what we are seeing right now it still isn't very good. And that is with about as good, rankings wise, as Rutgers can possibly hope for going forward.

Rutgers ONLY hope to win is with a team DOMINATED with Upperclasman. We haven't had that type of team in years and years. And, in my opinion, hence our results.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

i agree with you....

Why hasn't Eddie?

With spring signing already happen all spots have turned (Greg Lewis).

Williams
Goode
Sanders (big caveat here with the 6 teams in HS)
Doorson
Foreman
Laurent

Just 6 out of 13. N johnson, freeman, Daniels, Moore, Grier are all examples of history repeating

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Looking at Rice's 1st 3 years the squad with the least amount of talent (by far) was the best team. Changing gears, it shows my fears that a mid major coach has a problem motivating P5 players.

Coburn, Mitchell, Beatty, and Poole bought in. His great recruiting class not as much. That could have also been a youth thing too.

 

[RutgHoops]

i agree with you....

Why hasn't Eddie?

With spring signing already happen all spots have turned (Greg Lewis).

Williams
Goode
Sanders (big caveat here with the 6 teams in HS)
Doorson
Foreman
Laurent

Just 6 out of 13. N johnson, freeman, Daniels, Moore, Grier are all examples of history repeating

Eddie has 7 frosh/sophs playing that he has recruited in two years (Williams, Foreman, Diallo, Doorson, Sanders, Laurent, Goode). I have zero issue supplementing those kids with guys like Freeman and Grier. And he added a player I like in Tripp for next year (by the way why no comment from Zags. I thought our staff never showed up to recruit Juice U. Or so he said in his article about the Juice U kids SHU offered). How many P5 teams have needed to add SEVEN frosh in their last two classes plus two transfers just to get to 10 kids? 10%? Less?

We differ on Daniels and Moore so I will just add my opinion. College basketball players have four years. That's it. We, as fans, get to hang out forever so a "total rebuild", like post-Rice, stinks but for us it is what it is. That is not the case for kids like Mack, Jack and Lewis who stuck with the program. They just have those four years. It is completely unfair to simply run open tryouts in the RAC and surround the guys who stuck it out with walk ons. Moore, a "me first team last" guy, is part of the price you pay if you want any talent around the guys who stuck it out. I had no issue with what Eddie did to not have Jack and Mack be completely miserable here. Daniels is different. He is an athletic kid you take a chance on in a rebuild. He doesn't seem like a "me first team last" kid. He is just limited. And I think he plays on a bunch of high major teams. Not as many minutes as he does at RU, but he'd play some.

 

[PatrickRU92]

In the last 10 years we have gotten less than 15 kids who were recruited as frosh to Senior Day.

Denzel Valentine, a likely first team All Big 10 player, averaged 5ppg as a frosh and 8ppg on 40% shooting as a Sophomore. Nigel Hayes, another possible first team All Big 10 player averaged 7 ppg as a frosh. Yogi Ferrell averaged less than 8ppg as a frosh. Jake Layman averaged 5.5ppg for Maryland as a frosh. Bronson Koenig averaged less than 4ppg as a frosh and under 9ppg as a Soph. Jarrod Utoff from Iowa averaged under 8ppg as a frosh.

Every one of those players is likely to be a 1st or 2nd team All-Big 10 player as an upperclassman. I can go on and on and on.

Drawing the final verdicts on kids in their frosh and/or soph years is misguided and silly. I don't care who is the HC of this team, Rutgers is NOT winning in this league with a team dominated by freshman and sophomores. Just not happening.

Look at the teams these guys played on--they probably had some pretty talented guys playing in front of them who were taking some of their minutes. If they were freshman at Rutgers they would have played a lot more minutes and would have put up bigger numbers too.

you are right though we aren't winning with just frosh and sophomores. But if you thought we were winning a lot of games before the season started (not saying this is you btw) then you needed your head examined. We all knew that any post season of any kind this year would have been a miracle. That doesn't excuse why at home we are playing for our lives against Central Arkansas either.

Re: Parker--I'm very sorry we lost him, he certainly wouldn't have hurt us. But I have to admit when I heard about his game after he committed even then I had my concerns. He's not a good shooter. He's a dunker. A very good dunker but he's not known for his shooting. I will be interested to see how his career goes but here's another thing: STOP RECRUITING 2 GUARDS WHO CAN'T SHOOT. This is KILLING us! The 2 guard is all about scoring!

Last night I was watching ODU and Alabama-Birmingham. Was a great game btw went to OT. I watch all of these guys with offensive skills on both teams and it irks me to no end that we can't get players like that at RU. Even if we don't win the B1G why can't we at least look like are a basketball team??

It's maddening.

 

[B1GNJHoops]

Look at the teams these guys played on--they probably had some pretty talented guys playing in front of them who were taking some of their minutes. If they were freshman at Rutgers they would have played a lot more minutes and would have put up bigger numbers too.

you are right though we aren't winning with just frosh and sophomores. But if you thought we were winning a lot of games before the season started (not saying this is you btw) then you needed your head examined. We all knew that any post season of any kind this year would have been a miracle. That doesn't excuse why at home we are playing for our lives against Central Arkansas either.

Re: Parker--I'm very sorry we lost him, but now that he's not coming here , he certainly wouldn't have hurt us. But I have to admit when I heard about his game after he committed even then I had my concerns. He's not a good shooter. He's a dunker. A very good dunker but he's not known for his shooting. I will be interested to see how his career goes but here's another thing: STOP RECRUITING 2 GUARDS WHO CAN'T SHOOT. This is KILLING us! The 2 guard is all about scoring!

Last night I was watching ODU and Alabama-Birmingham. Was a great game btw went to OT. I watch all of these guys with offensive skills on both teams and it irks me to no end that we can't get players like that at RU. Even if we don't win the B1G why can't we at least look like are a basketball team??

It's maddening.

We went all in on the very best JUCO and two four-stars. When we go 0-for-3, we settle and chase athletes and measurables or kids who have skill but Big South athleticism.

Mid-majors know who they are. Maybe they'll keep tabs on some high majors locally but they aggressively recruit JUOO, foreign, prep and just overlooked players by not focusing on shoe companies and stars attached to names by recruiting services. That's possibly why that is only a quick guess.

 

[bac2therac]

Judge, Jack and Lewis actually got worse their senior seasons under Jordan. Now you can say they weren't Jordan's recruits. I say bollocks. It does count. Plus Daniels has improved. I see nothing from the group of Williams/Foreman to indicate that even as seniors they would be nothing more than role players at other Big 10 schools

 

[RUskoolie]

It's really sad that I saw a poster list that Mike Rice won 15 games and my first thought was "holy smokes that's a lot of wins".

 

[MADHAT1]

Judge, Jack and Lewis actually got worse their senior seasons under Jordan. Now you can say they weren't Jordan's recruits. I say bollocks. It does count. Plus Daniels has improved. I see nothing from the group of Williams/Foreman to indicate that even as seniors they would be nothing more than role players at other Big 10 schools

Every year those players had posters saying they'd improve and they really didn't.
Jordan just continued watching them play less than their talent level was supposed to be.
Won't give Eddie a pass for not having them play like they should, but Rice wasn't developing them like he should have either.
Seems, except for a few exceptions, most talented RU freshmen never reach the potential their freshman year play shows they have.

 

[RUJMM78]

The problem of having at most two consistent scorers on the floor the same time has been going on for far too long.Opponents know that fact and consistently double teamed players like Carter and Mack .There have been times that not one consistent scorer has been on the floor such as when Sanders wasn't starting.
Recruiting is the life blood of college sports.Rutgers not getting one recruit for the early signing period is just another indication that the program is heading deeper into the abyss.

Right now the best argument that can be made for Jordan is that all the returning players will come back healthy and with marked improvements in their skill level.There are a lot of ifs built into that scenario .

 

[bac2therac]

too many ifs for me. We have all down this road severals times before...if if if. What is likely to happen is that we lose a player or two to transfer and/or someones injury derails them next year too. And even if all those ifs happen we are still looking at a below 500 season almost certainly. This program is likely to begin Big 10 play with 34 straight conferences losses

 

[knights1212]

I agree with Patrick. I was also worried about Parker being a high flying dunker with a questionable jumper. I wonder how he will do at Tennessee. Rumor was that when he visited he Saw Corey and Nigel practicing and he thought he couldn't outplay either of those two guys. This might be hogwash but it was hinted at by a few guys after he visited us in October. Freeman if redshirted will be here two more years. We need a few more decent recruits. We definitely need a 3 point shooting small forward and a big guy who can score and rebound. We cannot come intp next season with just 2 centers in Diallo and Doorson both coming off of a broken foot. Very often these type of injuries return.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

too many ifs for me. We have all down this road severals times before...if if if. What is likely to happen is that we lose a player or two to transfer and/or someones injury derails them next year too. And even if all those ifs happen we are still looking at a below 500 season almost certainly. This program is likely to begin Big 10 play with 34 straight conferences losses

Minnesota

 

[bac2therac]

Minnesota

But they get the first game at home thats a win for them...im not sureof the state of our team the last game

 

[RutgHoops]

Kadeem Jack under Mike Rice:

11-12: 1.2 ppg/1.6 rpg
12-13: 5.7 ppg/4.7 rpg

Kadeem Jack under Eddie Jordan

13-14: 14.3 ppg/6.8 rpg
14-15: 13.4 ppg/6.4rpg

Judge was "meh" both as a Junior under Rice and as a Senior under Jordan.

 

[blockm2]

In the last 10 years we have gotten less than 15 kids who were recruited as frosh to Senior Day.

Denzel Valentine, a likely first team All Big 10 player, averaged 5ppg as a frosh and 8ppg on 40% shooting as a Sophomore. Nigel Hayes, another possible first team All Big 10 player averaged 7 ppg as a frosh. Yogi Ferrell averaged less than 8ppg as a frosh. Jake Layman averaged 5.5ppg for Maryland as a frosh. Bronson Koenig averaged less than 4ppg as a frosh and under 9ppg as a Soph. Jarrod Utoff from Iowa averaged under 8ppg as a frosh.

Every one of those players is likely to be a 1st or 2nd team All-Big 10 player as an upperclassman. I can go on and on and on.

Drawing the final verdicts on kids in their frosh and/or soph years is misguided and silly. I don't care who is the HC of this team, Rutgers is NOT winning in this league with a team dominated by freshman and sophomores. Just not happening.

While that may all be true, I think if you are going to argue about waiting for players to develop you should probably try to decide whether the coach has a history of developing players over the course of a season and 4 year career.

Some coaches are great teachers and get their players to really get better over time.

 

[bac2therac]

Jack had started to break out during the last part of his sophomore year so those stats are skewed and he clearly regressed his senior year from his junior year

 

[goru7]

Jack had started to break out during the last part of his sophomore year so those stats are skewed and he clearly regressed his senior year from his junior year

He didn't regress in the true sense of the word, he tried to expand his offensive game by stepping out and taking 3's . He almost refused to play defense or block shots which he did much better earlier in his career. If he stayed on the block and brought his overall defense and rebounding and block shot ability , he would have increased his draft stock. Maybe part of that was Eddie's offense had him on the perimeter too much, but part of that was Jack just settling too much and not being a warrior taking it to the hole..

 

[Section114]

He didn't regress in the true sense of the word, he tried to expand his offensive game by stepping out and taking 3's . He almost refused to play defense or block shots which he did much better earlier in his career. If he stayed on the block and brought his overall defense and rebounding and block shot ability , he would have increased his draft stock. Maybe part of that was Eddie's offense had him on the perimeter too much, but part of that was Jack just settling too much and not being a warrior taking it to the hole..

He definitely try to show a jump shot. Whether that Eddies plan or Kadeem trying to improve NBA chances by demonstrating a jumper who really knows. Definitely settled.

 

[goru7]

He definitely try to show a jump shot. Whether that Eddies plan or Kadeem trying to improve NBA chances by demonstrating a jumper who really knows. Definitely settled.

Yeah. He was beast down low and blocked shots and stopped doing it after the Wisconsin game. He had the Nba on his mind and he did not handle it well

 

[RUChoppin]

Kadeem Jack under Mike Rice:

11-12: 1.2 ppg/1.6 rpg
12-13: 5.7 ppg/4.7 rpg

Kadeem Jack under Eddie Jordan

13-14: 14.3 ppg/6.8 rpg
14-15: 13.4 ppg/6.4rpg

Judge was "meh" both as a Junior under Rice and as a Senior under Jordan.

You're really including 11-12 stats? He missed the first 12 games, and even then played just 149 minutes the rest of the season and shot all of 35 times.

You need to adjust for minutes played. If you look at his stats per 40 min:
2012-13: 12.5 pts, 10.4 rb, 2.1 blk, 2.1 TO
2013-14: 19.5 pts, 9.3 rb, 1.7 blk, 2.6 TO
2014-15: 16.7 pts, 8.3 rb, 0.9 blk, 3.4 TO

The only of those category that improved year-to-year was points scored, and only from his soph to junior year (it regressed as a senior). Now, he did improve in PFs (as you'd expect with experience), going from 5.2 to 3.9 to 2.9. His steals went up very slightly, too, from 0.8 to 1.0 to 1.2.

 

[Scarlet Shack]

There are three common denominators in the Rutgers basketball talent issues since the time of the flood

1.) we lack multiple players who can shoot from the perimeter

2.) we lack big guys who can play above the rim

3.) we lack a true point guard

Take a good look at
The couple of good teams that we had in the past that got close to the NCAAs

1998-1999
We had Geoff billet backed up
By earl Johnson at
The point guard

We had billet, hodgeson,
Greer, Johnson and a little bit of frosh dahthay from the perimeter

We had kent and salvi who played above the rim. Dabney got hurt early that year. We were one big man away that year from being very very good

2001-2002

We had Coleman and shields
Bombing away from three

We had kent as a senior, dabney and wrigjt as juniors, axani and Herve as sophs. Not bad up front

Sherrod was the point. A ballet and good defender but not offensive minded enough. And no outside shot


When we have a point guard (we do have sanders), a bunch of guys who can nail it from deep (something sorely lacking right now) and guys playing abode the rim (no idea what we have with injuries) then we talk about being competitive