South Jersey says "Build, Just Keep Building!"

[srru86]

Philly Inquirer
Rowan-Rutgers venture's first budget stresses construction

The Rowan University/Rutgers-Camden Board of Governors adopted a budget Tuesday that designates $8.3 million (of a 10mil budget) for a building, including property acquisition, construction, and engineering fees.

Part of an additional $250,000 will be used to hire a project manager, and $125,000 was set aside for planning and architect services.

I mean building fancy buildings without a documented need has worked out so well for the Norcross machine in Atlantic City. Hey, wait a minute, how about we just move all the researchers, pharmaceutical and bio med types that are clamoring to get into Camden to relocate to the new Revel Eds & Meds office building? They'll be plenty of vacancy soon.

And I'll bet you Sweeney's Senate salary that nearly all the above monies will go to firms with donations to Norcross' war chest. I can't bet Sweeney's combined building trades union and multiple public salaries, I'm not made of money after all.
This post was edited on 8/13 9:53 AM by srru86

 

[retired711]

A joint health sciences building to serve the Rowan medical school and Rutgers-Camden is not a bad idea. It would assist in building up a critical mass of meds/eds in Camden. It's not at all like the Revel. But I certainly agree that this project will be good for the Norcross machine, including from a financial point of view.

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
A joint health sciences building to serve the Rowan medical school and Rutgers-Camden is not a bad idea. It would assist in building up a critical mass of meds/eds in Camden. It's not at all like the Revel. But I certainly agree that this project will be good for the Norcross machine, including from a financial point of view.

Of course it is not a bad idea in principle and I'm being a bit of a wise a$$ with the Revel cracks.

But did we really need all the Norcross overhead? Which is basically the difference between the $8.3 mil they are spending and the $10 mil budget to accomplish this? Of course a percentage of the $8.3 mil that goes to vendors will filter back into the machine's coffers as "donations".

What if they had just given the $10 million to RU for capital improvements, even if they stipulated $2.5 mil each for Newark & Camden and $5 mil for NB?

We're spending $1.7 mil for a politically connected lawyer executive director and coffee and donuts for the Norcross hacks board meetings? Almost two million would have paid for a fair amount of paint and mortar.

 

[TonyLieske]

Originally posted by srru86:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
A joint health sciences building to serve the Rowan medical school and Rutgers-Camden is not a bad idea. It would assist in building up a critical mass of meds/eds in Camden. It's not at all like the Revel. But I certainly agree that this project will be good for the Norcross machine, including from a financial point of view.

Of course it is not a bad idea in principle and I'm being a bit of a wise a$$ with the Revel cracks.

But did we really need all the Norcross overhead? Which is basically the difference between the $8.3 mil they are spending and the $10 mil budget to accomplish this? Of course a percentage of the $8.3 mil that goes to vendors will filter back into the machine's coffers as "donations".

What if they had just given the $10 million to RU for capital improvements, even if they stipulated $2.5 mil each for Newark & Camden and $5 mil for NB?

We're spending $1.7 mil for a politically connected lawyer executive director and coffee and donuts for the Norcross hacks board meetings? Almost two million would have paid for a fair amount of paint and mortar.

This is really the key point.

You are losing ~17% of your funding to administrative overhead that was put in place as a way to pay back political allies. Its a perfect example of how shady dealings make things so much more expensive in NJ.

FWIW, my favorite lines in the article:

"The budget includes up to $20,000 to hire interns from Rowan and Rutgers-Camden.



"The board felt that it was important, since we are an academic institution," Kolluri said, "to have some graduate students and undergraduate students … come and work at the board."

Its awful considerate of them to throw 20k (of a 10 million budget) to the students.

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by TonyLieske:

FWIW, my favorite lines in the article:

"The budget includes up to $20,000 to hire interns from Rowan and Rutgers-Camden.



"The board felt that it was important, since we are an academic institution," Kolluri said, "to have some graduate students and undergraduate students … come and work at the board."

Its awful considerate of them to throw 20k (of a 10 million budget) to the students.

If we had a real working press they would be cross referencing the list of kids that get those scholarships to the sons & daughters of South Jersey politicos/donors.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by srru86:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
A joint health sciences building to serve the Rowan medical school and Rutgers-Camden is not a bad idea. It would assist in building up a critical mass of meds/eds in Camden. It's not at all like the Revel. But I certainly agree that this project will be good for the Norcross machine, including from a financial point of view.

Of course it is not a bad idea in principle and I'm being a bit of a wise a$$ with the Revel cracks.

But did we really need all the Norcross overhead? Which is basically the difference between the $8.3 mil they are spending and the $10 mil budget to accomplish this? Of course a percentage of the $8.3 mil that goes to vendors will filter back into the machine's coffers as "donations".

What if they had just given the $10 million to RU for capital improvements, even if they stipulated $2.5 mil each for Newark & Camden and $5 mil for NB?

We're spending $1.7 mil for a politically connected lawyer executive director and coffee and donuts for the Norcross hacks board meetings? Almost two million would have paid for a fair amount of paint and mortar.

Having 2.5 million for Camden does not accomplish what they want, which is to build an $8.3 million building.

 

[Upstream]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by srru86:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
A joint health sciences building to serve the Rowan medical school and Rutgers-Camden is not a bad idea. It would assist in building up a critical mass of meds/eds in Camden. It's not at all like the Revel. But I certainly agree that this project will be good for the Norcross machine, including from a financial point of view.

Of course it is not a bad idea in principle and I'm being a bit of a wise a$$ with the Revel cracks.

But did we really need all the Norcross overhead? Which is basically the difference between the $8.3 mil they are spending and the $10 mil budget to accomplish this? Of course a percentage of the $8.3 mil that goes to vendors will filter back into the machine's coffers as "donations".

What if they had just given the $10 million to RU for capital improvements, even if they stipulated $2.5 mil each for Newark & Camden and $5 mil for NB?

We're spending $1.7 mil for a politically connected lawyer executive director and coffee and donuts for the Norcross hacks board meetings? Almost two million would have paid for a fair amount of paint and mortar.

Having 2.5 million for Camden does not accomplish what they want, which is to build an $8.3 million building.

I think his point was that if you take Norcross and Sweeney out of the equation, you can get the same building for $2.5 million and still have another $7.5 million for New Brunswick and Newark.

 

[jdm1979]

I don't think that even Sweeney would have the audacity to pad a $2.5 million project up to $8.3 million.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by jdm1979:
I don't think that even Sweeney would have the audacity to pad a $2.5 million project up to $8.3 million.

They would if they could, but $8.3 million is hardly out of line for an academic building these days.

 

[Cofifa]

What does 8.5 million build in Camden ? In New Brunswick that is probably a 22,000sf building without land

 

[S_Janowski]

Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by Cofifa:
What does 8.5 million build in Camden ? In New Brunswick that is probably a 22,000sf building without land

The project will require land acquisition, so your comparison is not strictly apt.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

 

[S_Janowski]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

Rutgers-Camden is already building a new nursing building around Cooper so no they do not need this building for nursing. Rowan has their brand new medical school building so I'm sure they don't have an immediate need for a brand new building either.

My last sentence comes from the fact that only 300K of the 10 million is being spent on anything related to academics. You think the smart thing would be to put a little more investment into the academic side of things the few years before building a brand new $8.3 million building?

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

 

[srru86]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

Rowan's board is a wholly owned subsidiary of Norcross Inc.

When the Governor and the Senate President and the Assembly Speaker all owe somebody whose political foundation is built upon the building trades unions we should not be surprised this is happening with the "Joint" beast.

All the sturm und drang about Rutgers governance is based on the BOG not being complaint with George's wishes, which Rowan has been.

 

[derleider]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

Rutgers-Camden is already building a new nursing building around Cooper so no they do not need this building for nursing. Rowan has their brand new medical school building so I'm sure they don't have an immediate need for a brand new building either.

My last sentence comes from the fact that only 300K of the 10 million is being spent on anything related to academics. You think the smart thing would be to put a little more investment into the academic side of things the few years before building a brand new $8.3 million building?

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

Putting money into academics hasnt been a thing in like thirty years. Eveyrone is build build build.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

Rutgers-Camden is already building a new nursing building around Cooper so no they do not need this building for nursing. Rowan has their brand new medical school building so I'm sure they don't have an immediate need for a brand new building either.

My last sentence comes from the fact that only 300K of the 10 million is being spent on anything related to academics. You think the smart thing would be to put a little more investment into the academic side of things the few years before building a brand new $8.3 million building?

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

Putting money into academics hasnt been a thing in like thirty years. Eveyrone is build build build.

Derleiderer, what you say about the $300,000 is wrong. That's 300,000 out of this year's budget of $800,000, not out of the whole $8.5 million that will eventually go to the building.

 

[S_Janowski]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

Rutgers-Camden is already building a new nursing building around Cooper so no they do not need this building for nursing. Rowan has their brand new medical school building so I'm sure they don't have an immediate need for a brand new building either.

My last sentence comes from the fact that only 300K of the 10 million is being spent on anything related to academics. You think the smart thing would be to put a little more investment into the academic side of things the few years before building a brand new $8.3 million building?

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

Putting money into academics hasnt been a thing in like thirty years. Eveyrone is build build build.

Derleiderer, what you say about the $300,000 is wrong. That's 300,000 out of this year's budget of $800,000, not out of the whole $8.5 million that will eventually go to the building.

That was me and what did I say that was wrong?

It's a $10 million budget per year. This year, out of the $10 million - $8.3 million is going to a building. What's remaining after the $8.3 million is being spent on the following:

"Still, it provides insight into the board's first-year goals: $315,000, the largest amount outside building costs, has been allocated for academic program costs, $275,000 will go to Kolluri's salary, and $250,000 was set aside for hiring a project manager and related costs."

And don't forget the 20K being put aside for interns - how generous.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:
Corruption at it's finest.

This is like building a stadium without a team.

I don't see why you say your last sentence. My impression is that Rutgers and Cooper have plenty they can put in there. For instance, Rutgers-Camden's nursing program is regularly expanding as more people seek jobs in the medical field (about the only growth field there seems to be these days).

Rutgers-Camden is already building a new nursing building around Cooper so no they do not need this building for nursing. Rowan has their brand new medical school building so I'm sure they don't have an immediate need for a brand new building either.

My last sentence comes from the fact that only 300K of the 10 million is being spent on anything related to academics. You think the smart thing would be to put a little more investment into the academic side of things the few years before building a brand new $8.3 million building?

The past few year's Rowan's answer to everything is build, build, build and this is that exactly philosophy being put into place with this new partnership.

Putting money into academics hasnt been a thing in like thirty years. Eveyrone is build build build.

Derleiderer, what you say about the $300,000 is wrong. That's 300,000 out of this year's budget of $800,000, not out of the whole $8.5 million that will eventually go to the building.

That was me and what did I say that was wrong?

It's a $10 million budget per year. This year, out of the $10 million - $8.3 million is going to a building. What's remaining after the $8.3 million is being spent on the following:

"Still, it provides insight into the board's first-year goals: $315,000, the largest amount outside building costs, has been allocated for academic program costs, $275,000 will go to Kolluri's salary, and $250,000 was set aside for hiring a project manager and related costs."

And don't forget the 20K being put aside for interns - how generous.

Sorry, you're right on both counts. What I wonder is whether the $8.3 million is all coming out of one-year's budget. Where would they have gotten $10 million? My guess is that the building is being paid for out of bonds, with the academic money coming out of whatever revenue they have.

 

[retired711]

The Star-Ledger's story is much more revealing. It talks about what the building is for; primarily to house Rutgers-Camden departments. The building will ultimately cost $62.5 M for 100,000 square feet, which is hardly the Taj Mahal. That price tag seems comparable to the amount per square foot that Rutgers-Camden paid for a new law school building.

One supporter talks about how this will revitalize Fifth Street in Camden. But the building is blocks away from Fifth Street.

here's a clearer story

 

[S_Janowski]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
The Star-Ledger's story is much more revealing. It talks about what the building is for; primarily to house Rutgers-Camden departments. The building will ultimately cost $62.5 M for 100,000 square feet, which is hardly the Taj Mahal. That price tag seems comparable to the amount per square foot that Rutgers-Camden paid for a new law school building.

One supporter talks about how this will revitalize Fifth Street in Camden. But the building is blocks away from Fifth Street.

I think these are two separate buildings Camden.

The $8.3 million building being planned is separate from the $62.5 million Nursing/Health Sciences building for which construction began last year. This is why I'm questioning the need for another new building.

To my understanding the $10 million ia an annual budget every year made up of $5 million from Rutgers and $5 million from Rowan. I think it's silly to go out the first year and spend 83% of that on a new building when this partnership is brand new and nothing has been developed/planned on the academic side to date.

 

[retired711]

I don't *think* it's two buildings. Rather, my guess it's that it's one big building along Federal Street in Camden covering the whole area from 5th to Broadway. I have sent an e-mail to the Star-Ledger reporter asking him to clarify that and what the $8.3 million is being used for, and I will let you know his answer.

 

[retired711]

BTW, this facility is the Nursing and Science Building. So I don't think nursing is getting a separate building.

The concept seems to be to create a corridor of buildings between Cooper and Rutgers-Camden. That would take a very long time because the two facilities are at least a half mile away from each other. Well now that I think of it, the corridor may not be that difficult. This building would pretty much complete a corridor along Federal Street, and the two blocks between Federal and the campus are the short side of blocks, not the long.

This post was edited on 8/20 11:37 AM by camdenlawprof

more on the building

 

[TonyLieske]

Somewhat related, but FWIW I am in Glassboro once every week or two, and it is amazing how much building is going on there. I am not sure how much of it is Rowan versus other development (which in all likelihood is support services for Rowan) but they are building like crazy.

Not surprising then that this "cooperative" (in name only, its a Rowan/Norcross organization for all intents and purposes) is also just diving right in to building more "stuff."

 

[retired711]

This health and sciences building was in the works well before there was any talk of a merger or a joint board. Rutgers regarded it as the highest priority for use of the bond funds for Rutgers-Camden. Stop blaming the building on Norcross. It's not the building that's questionable, but rather how the money for the building is being allocated.

 

[S_Janowski]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
This health and sciences building was in the works well before there was any talk of a merger or a joint board. Rutgers regarded it as the highest priority for use of the bond funds for Rutgers-Camden. Stop blaming the building on Norcross. It's not the building that's questionable, but rather how the money for the building is being allocated.

Camden - once again I think you are confusing the health sciences/nursing building with the $8.3 million building just approved by the partnership.

That link you posted was from a ground breaking back in Oct 2013 for the nursing building. This approval of a $8.3 million by the Rutgers/Rowan partnership just happened. It is separate and can definitely be related to the Norcross machine.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
This health and sciences building was in the works well before there was any talk of a merger or a joint board. Rutgers regarded it as the highest priority for use of the bond funds for Rutgers-Camden. Stop blaming the building on Norcross. It's not the building that's questionable, but rather how the money for the building is being allocated.

Camden - once again I think you are confusing the health sciences/nursing building with the $8.3 million building just approved by the partnership.

That link you posted was from a ground breaking back in Oct 2013 for the nursing building. This approval of a $8.3 million by the Rutgers/Rowan partnership just happened. It is separate and can definitely be related to the Norcross machine.

I'm not sure that's right. The buildings have the same site and the same cost. That suggests they are one and the same. And yes, there has been a groundbreaking, but it was purely symbolic.

 

[S_Janowski]

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
This health and sciences building was in the works well before there was any talk of a merger or a joint board. Rutgers regarded it as the highest priority for use of the bond funds for Rutgers-Camden. Stop blaming the building on Norcross. It's not the building that's questionable, but rather how the money for the building is being allocated.

Camden - once again I think you are confusing the health sciences/nursing building with the $8.3 million building just approved by the partnership.

That link you posted was from a ground breaking back in Oct 2013 for the nursing building. This approval of a $8.3 million by the Rutgers/Rowan partnership just happened. It is separate and can definitely be related to the Norcross machine.

I'm not sure that's right. The buildings have the same site and the same cost. That suggests they are one and the same. And yes, there has been a groundbreaking, but it was purely symbolic.

One building cost is $62 million and another is $8.3 million. The funding for the $62 milion was approved as part of the Bond for all NJ colleges last year and had nothing to do with this $10 million yearly Rutgers/Rowan joing budget. I'm not sure why you are under the impression that these are the same buildings.

Either way I'm happy Rutgers-Camden was not stolen away by Sweeney/Norcorss so I guess these types of dealings are a compromise.

 

[retired711]

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Originally posted by S_Janowski:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
This health and sciences building was in the works well before there was any talk of a merger or a joint board. Rutgers regarded it as the highest priority for use of the bond funds for Rutgers-Camden. Stop blaming the building on Norcross. It's not the building that's questionable, but rather how the money for the building is being allocated.

Camden - once again I think you are confusing the health sciences/nursing building with the $8.3 million building just approved by the partnership.

That link you posted was from a ground breaking back in Oct 2013 for the nursing building. This approval of a $8.3 million by the Rutgers/Rowan partnership just happened. It is separate and can definitely be related to the Norcross machine.

I'm not sure that's right. The buildings have the same site and the same cost. That suggests they are one and the same. And yes, there has been a groundbreaking, but it was purely symbolic.

One building cost is $62 million and another is $8.3 million. The funding for the $62 milion was approved as part of the Bond for all NJ colleges last year and had nothing to do with this $10 million yearly Rutgers/Rowan joing budget. I'm not sure why you are under the impression that these are the same buildings.

Either way I'm happy Rutgers-Camden was not stolen away by Sweeney/Norcorss so I guess these types of dealings are a compromise.

$8.3 million isn't going to build much, cosnsidering that it takes $62 million to build 100,000 square feet.