This is a wild article.
http://www.onthebanks.com/2015/12/1...-kent-bob-knight-wenzel-jordan-gavitt-paterno
http://www.onthebanks.com/2015/12/1...-kent-bob-knight-wenzel-jordan-gavitt-paterno
The "What Ifs" in Rutgers Basketball History
- Thread starter RutgersYay
- Start date
Dick Kent says some good stuff in there . But none of it is new news to any Rutgers fan .
I like wenzel , but he was a moron for not hiring jimmy salmon.
I like wenzel , but he was a moron for not hiring jimmy salmon.
Gotta take some of this with a grain of salt. Right off the bat the article says Tom Young replaced Bill Foster which probably everyone on this board knows is wrong. Says Todd Billet transferred to Virginia partially because Bannon fired Geoff which also can't be true because a) Geoff had a DBO type role and left to be a full fledged assistant coach at Monmouth, b) Bannon was fired and then Todd transferred. Also said Dahntay Jones and Todd Billet transferred at the same time which is also wrong.
There are so many inaccuracies it's hard to keep track. RU did not hire Bannon over Bill Herrion. Herrion was far and away the leading candidate to replace Wenzel from the start and then everyday there was a report of Rutgers talking to everyone from Tom Penders to Jim Harrick to Eddie Fogler and Herrion rightly felt like he was being strung along and bailed leaving us nowhere. Bannon was probably the 15th choice by that point. We were just glad someone took the job.
There are so many inaccuracies it's hard to keep track. RU did not hire Bannon over Bill Herrion. Herrion was far and away the leading candidate to replace Wenzel from the start and then everyday there was a report of Rutgers talking to everyone from Tom Penders to Jim Harrick to Eddie Fogler and Herrion rightly felt like he was being strung along and bailed leaving us nowhere. Bannon was probably the 15th choice by that point. We were just glad someone took the job.
Last edited:
As depressing as hearing your ex-girlfriend won the lottery.
Yes, lots of inaccuracies.
Though the various misses and key turning points are accurate.
Jones left a full year before Billet did ... what killed is that Luis Flores transferred, announcing his transfer in late March or early April ... mainly because he was a freshman, while Jones was a Sophomore, and his playing time was blocked by Jones. Jones then announced he was leaving in MAY, of all times - way too late for RU to fund a replacement ... and too late to retain Flores. Flores later said had he known Jones was transferring he would never have transferred from RU.
Todd Billet started looking to leave RU as soon as January of his Sophomore season, and it was well known he was likely to leave by mid-to late-February. Billet leaving, combined with all the bad publicity on the naked FT contest spread by the players who had transferred (Johnson's father, in particular, and the big Center whose name I am blanking on) - and the publicity was awful because Johnson and the center played for Northeastern teams who were making great upset runs in the NCAA (Iona and Holy Cross, maybe?). But losing Flores, and Jones the year before, and then the icon of Billet, were the death knell for Bannon.
Also, the story of Paterno's so-called effort for an Eastern football conference as linked in that article is partly true, but what is not widely reported, since the Paterno legend still carries weight. Paterno and Penn State were the ones who single-handedly scuttled the Eastern football league in the late 1970's - but he had led Gruninger to believe it was possible, which was one factor that led RU to reject the Big East invitation in 1978. Pitt was on board in the late 1970's, but Penn State was the one who rejected it back then. At that time you could not assemble an Eastern football league without BOTH Pitt and Penn State. It was only after Penn State went full independent in all sports for 2 years in 1978 and 1979, or 9n 1979 and 1980, including in basketball, and failed, that they agreed to join an Eastern football league ... which was about to happne, actually, until the Big East invited Pitt into its league as its 9th team, and successfully scuttled that idea. Great defense by the Big East, as Pitt was very bad in basketball at the time, and made no sense for the Big East except for self preservation (BC and Syracuse would have left the Big East to join the Eastern All Sports league alongside Pitt, PSU, WVU, Temple and Rutgers).
Kent also misses the dynamic of how the Jay Wright rejection went down. Mulcahy fired Bannon - but he thought he actually had Jay Wright lined up before he even fired Bannon, which was looking like a brilliant move. Lappas was a good friend of Wright's, and Wright did not want to get Lappas fired ... plus Lappas was coming off a 19-win season, I think (though NIT, not NCAA). Lappas and Wright had the same lawyer/agent. Wright actually had a written contract from RU (had verbally agreed upon the terms), and his lawyer was reviewing it to finalize ... in a span of 2 days, Lappas was fired from Villanova and Wright was hired by Villanova - and within 2 days later Lappas was hired by UMass ... but Wright and Lappas knew Lappas had the UMass job before Wright even took the Villanova job. Truthfully, Nova was Wright's dream job (his wife had been a Villanova cheerleader, and Wright had been an assistant at Villanova as well.
The Danny Hurley situation ... Kent's comments are ridiculous. What, it was BAD that RU offered Hurley, and burned bridges? Crazy. IF RU offered Hurley (I am not sure they did, by the way), Hurley's response is what burned bridges. By many accounts he wanted something like $2 million a year for 7 years, fully guaranteed. What chutzpah, and a ridiculous demand! He had all of 3 years experience as a head coach: 2 losing years and 1 terrific year (sandwiched around the 2 losing seasons), at 2 different schools.
the way Nova manuvered to get Wright by shipping Lappas to UMass (who I hate for agreeing to take him) continues to impact both us and them...
if Wright came here, RU would have become a hoops school, likely with a new arena. Everything would have been different. Now Wright may have left for NBA or another school, but I don't think so...
Mulcahy cements his legacy here as AD.
We were this close with Bannon. It can be done here. Hoops needs its own Schiano. It feels right now we are in the Shea years.
if Wright came here, RU would have become a hoops school, likely with a new arena. Everything would have been different. Now Wright may have left for NBA or another school, but I don't think so...
Mulcahy cements his legacy here as AD.
We were this close with Bannon. It can be done here. Hoops needs its own Schiano. It feels right now we are in the Shea years.
Couldn't open the link so maybe this was covered but what about just missing out on Jay Williams and Troy Murphy in the same recruiting year.
The biggest what if from my time as a fan was in 1998. What if Rob Hodgson didn't dribble the ball off his leg against Georgetown (I think). I remember RU was squarely on the tourney bubble and had set itself up nicely to finally get a bid. Hodgson had clear passage to the hoop to score what I think was the winning basket, but just lost it off his leg. RU lost 4 in a row to end the regular season and its hopes at the tourney were dashed.
Billet told me personally that Wright was coming to RU and seemed excited about it. I don't think he would have transferred if we got Wright.
The saddest of them all for many reasons, was Jim Valvano getting struck down by cancer. Just prior to his diagnosis I remember there were rumors of him coaching Rutgers. What might have been.
The other "what if" for me was why in the world Wenzel never got the ball in Donnell Lumpkin's hands against Arizona State in the final three minutes of that first round game in 1991. We lost a late lead that day, and it has never been the same since.
The other "what if" for me was why in the world Wenzel never got the ball in Donnell Lumpkin's hands against Arizona State in the final three minutes of that first round game in 1991. We lost a late lead that day, and it has never been the same since.
Mentioned. Murphy was never coming to RU: Both he and his parents were very typical of NJ's parochial school families: RU was not nearly "good" enough for them.
Jay Williams though ... the article mentions this. What the article does not mention was the 6-figure job Williams' father received down in Raleigh, at a finance company owned by a Duke alumnus, nor a low-interest mortgage received to enable the purchase of a beautiful home ... the mortgage arranged for by a mortgage lending company owned by a Duke alumnus. This was written up in the Raleigh-Durham local papers while Williams was in school down there, by the way. Killer losing him. He was a top 75 player in his Junior season, and RU did a magnificent job identifying his upside and recruiting him. In the Sporing, as he participate din various events, he rose to a top 50 player. Over the Summer, as he participated in more tourneys, he exploded onto the national scene, and by the end of the Summer he was ranked as a top 25 player. By the end of his Senior season (after he had singed in November with Duke), some considered him the #1 or #2 point guard in the country, and a top 10 or top 15 player. Sigh ...
Losing Charles Smith to Pitt in 1983 (started at Pitt in Fall 1984) was also a killer, and when Tom Young lost him, that was the end for Young, in Young's mind. Young believed that the only reason he lost Smith was because Pitt was in the Big East (not sure if that is true or not, but it is what Young believed). Young was one of the best coaches in the country at building a successful team around ONE player - and making that player a STAR (Kermit Washington at American U., Sellers, then Bailey, then Hinson, then Battle at RU, and then I think Kenny Gattison at ODU). I know Young was seeing Smith as his next star. And he LOVED star forwards (see the above list).
Maybe ... but his family and/or "people" had been in contact with UVA, informally, for weeks before the season was over. SO many people were aware of this. I am 100% convinced that one of Bannon's main hurdles established by Mulcahy before the season in order for him to retain his job was NO MORE TRANSFERS. He had lost Jones and Flores the year before. The season prior to that he had lost Johnson and Sankes. That was 4 transfers in 2 years. I know Billet did not officially leave until after Waters was hired - and the official story is that he gave Waters a chance to persuade him to stay, but I do not think Waters had much real chance to keep him. Maybe Wright could have, I don't know.
It was actually 1999 and the Hodgson play was against Seton Hall at the Meadowlands. We then lost to Georgetown at home and we knew then that our hopes for an NCAA bid were probably dashed. Our RPI ended up around a very respectable 42 but we were done in by the dreaded last 10 game criteria they relied on a lot back then, most felt. That said, if you pasted a traditional basketball power's name on our resume I'm still not convinced we would have been left out.
I think equally as crushing as the Gtown loss was the one at Virginia Tech that snuffed RU's shot at a NCAA bid...it was a last second shot in Blacksburg off of a rebound of a missed shot because someone didn't box out. Waters third year and we eventually had a NIT final 4 run but that loss put us out unless we made the BE tourney finals
I think while there are some inaccuracies its a good read. Richard Kent was a great poster on here and I love his tidbits. Come back Richard!
I think while there are some inaccuracies its a good read. Richard Kent was a great poster on here and I love his tidbits. Come back Richard!
Agree. Still a good read despite some inaccuracies. Love the old stories. That's why having guys like Joe Boylan and Dick Lloyd at the Court Club is so good.
Replays showed that Shaheen Holloway poked the ball from behind while closely trailing Hodgson causing it to deflect towards and then off of Hodgon's knee.
Back when Rutgers first joined the Big East, I remember the early recruiting wars between RU and SHU. Paterson Catholic, St. Patricks and St. Anthony's had most of the top recruits in Freeman, Webb, Holloway, T. Thomas, Watkins, Ajamal Bassett. There was a story in the Star Ledger that RU might end up with a Fab 5 class with Webb, Watkins and I forget who else. Both Teams only ended up with one prized recruit (Holloway and Webb). SHU or RU could have landed T Thomas until Lappas hired Salmons. Thomas's Mother pushed for Rutgers while Holloway and Thomas were best friends. Thomas only played for a year at Nova but would have given SHU and RU much needed recruiting credibility. Bassett went to UMass where he had a very undistinguished career and was eventually thrown off the Team for throwing a punch at Bruiser Flint.
To me the biggest "what if" is what if Wiggan doesn't miss the FT and Va. Tech doesn't hit a shot at the buzzer to take Rutgers off the tourney bubble.
I truly believe Rutgers makes the NCAA if we win that game in '03-'04. Earlier that season Rutgers blew Va. Tech out of the gym at home (yup, looked it up RU 85-52) and after drilling WVU at home 74-53 we looked really good at 16-9/7-7 with @Va. Tech, SHU remaining. 8-8 Big East teams in those days were practically a lock to dance. That Va. tech loss, followed by another late game loss to a good SHU team ended our hopes. Win that Va. tech game and we dance, Gary Waters stays a while, builds some NJ recruiting momentum, Fred Hill never happens, Rice likely never happens.....
I truly believe Rutgers makes the NCAA if we win that game in '03-'04. Earlier that season Rutgers blew Va. Tech out of the gym at home (yup, looked it up RU 85-52) and after drilling WVU at home 74-53 we looked really good at 16-9/7-7 with @Va. Tech, SHU remaining. 8-8 Big East teams in those days were practically a lock to dance. That Va. tech loss, followed by another late game loss to a good SHU team ended our hopes. Win that Va. tech game and we dance, Gary Waters stays a while, builds some NJ recruiting momentum, Fred Hill never happens, Rice likely never happens.....
Yeah but why didn't the deep NIT run do it for Gary? Maybe we win the first game in the dance that year, but certainly no more than 2? Waters didn't do too well on the road.
The What If games are fun but it's not like we bounced out of the first round of the NIT that year.
I believe it sort of did. Obviously off that run we landed Gary's first "big NJ class" in FIG. All three were NJ kids and rated in Rivals Top 150. NJ "power brokers" like Jimmy Salmons were beginning to warm up to Gary. And while '04-'05 was a disaster (Shields/Douby infighting, Adrian Hill lost for the year) it did set up my favorite RU team since Wenzel.
I know I am in the minority, but I believe Gary had his best team in '05-'06. That team got off to a very respectable 12-4 start (which included an OT loss to a LOADED Villanova team) before losing 3 straight to Pitt, @Cincy, PC. A HUGE win at home v. UL brought RU to 13-7 and back into it a bit. The next game may also be a big "What if" as Quincy set the Carrier Dome record for points (41) and RU has the game won v. a pretty good Cuse team until Terrance F--kin Roberts banks in his only 3 of the year at the buzzer to beat us 86-84 in OT. Instead of 14-7 with wins over UL and @Cuse we are 13-8. Ugh. Inman, who was having a very good frosh year, gets hurt in the next game, a loss @ SHU, and we lose that one and the next off the Cuse heartbreaker. We then beat Marquette in the snow-gate game and get to 14-10/4-7. Playing a mediocre SJU team at home we look to have the game winnable and the student section unfurls the "Fire Waters" banner and the game goes to s--t. The team is still good enough to get to 17-12 for the year, beats SHU in the BET, wins a game in the NIT, finishes 19-14 and Gary gets canned.
I really liked the '05-06 team.
Last edited:
Biggest what if in my mind is Wright. What if the VU job was not open at that point in time? He would likely be here
The Nova job became open when they saw Jay Wright interviewing at RU and planning to leave Hofstra. That's why the priest from Nova brokered the deal to can Lappas and have UMASS hire him.
Why is that so ridiculous? Have you seen our arena and practice facility? That stuff matters mr moves Elizabeth High School has better facilities than we do. You expect to get impressionable top recruits with tons of options with what we have to offer. It's just not fair to expect us to win with what we have.
Few pojnts
1) the bob knight things was legit. We cheaped out there badly
2.) I know for a fact that Troy murphy wanted to come to Rutgers but the parents said no way. He really liked kevin until that game at the rac...lol
3.) Tim Thomas was not changing the Rutgers program as a one and done.
4.) the one that hurt was Jwill. He was all bannon then went to the nike camp and blew up. Even told kevin to hold number 32. Then his mom told him to visit duke. He would have changed Rutgers hoops. Kevin would have rexruitied more around him
5.) bannon recruited Rutgers hoops like no other. He was a below average bench coach ...especially oh offense
6.) I am surprised the not makin the 79 final four did not come up. Two final fours in for year would have changed a lot
More later
1) the bob knight things was legit. We cheaped out there badly
2.) I know for a fact that Troy murphy wanted to come to Rutgers but the parents said no way. He really liked kevin until that game at the rac...lol
3.) Tim Thomas was not changing the Rutgers program as a one and done.
4.) the one that hurt was Jwill. He was all bannon then went to the nike camp and blew up. Even told kevin to hold number 32. Then his mom told him to visit duke. He would have changed Rutgers hoops. Kevin would have rexruitied more around him
5.) bannon recruited Rutgers hoops like no other. He was a below average bench coach ...especially oh offense
6.) I am surprised the not makin the 79 final four did not come up. Two final fours in for year would have changed a lot
More later
At last week's Court Club meeting, asked about the toughest loss on the banks, Joe Boylan said the loss in 1979 Tournament (St John's?) because if they had won he thought they would have made the Final Four.
Shack referred to this as well.
I also agree this was one of the awful turning points. RU would absolutely have beaten Penn. I kn ow Penn was the darling of that tourney, but RU was a match-up nightmare for Penn. Our guards and WF would have easily contained Penn's scorers, and Penn would likely have no answer for Bailey.
Tom Young screwed the pooch coaching that St. Johns game. RU had beaten St. Johns earlier in the season, I think. St. John's best player was Wayne McCoy, their center, who was a good player - though they also had a good wing shooter. But Bailey just owned McCoy their whole careers. With 11 minutes left, or so, with RU up 9 or 11, McCoy drew his 4th foul and had to sit down. Instead of taking advantage of the now huge inside mismatch with Bailey in and McCoy sitting, and pressing the pedal to the metal, Young had RU sit on the ball, and slowed down the game, running clock and a very deliberate, "patient" offense. His decision completely stopped his own team's (RU) momentum. RU stopped executing well offensively or defensively, and St. Johns crept back into the game ... which allowed them to keep McCoy out until there were 4 minutes left. I think when he came back St. Johns was only down 4 points. St. Johns ended up winning by 2 points.
Had RU played Penn, I believe they would have own easily. Then RU would have faced Magic Johnson's Michigan State team ... which would have been a very interesting game. Yes, MSU was clearly the better team that season. But RU had Bailey, a 1st team All American - a great equalizer (Penn had no equivalent player to offset Magic's impact on the game). People forget that RU actually BEAT Indiana St. in the NIT at the end of the 1977-78 season, beating Larry Bird. Bird scored 30+ points, but RU won 57-56, or something like that. RU put Abdel Anderson on Bird, one on one, no help, and shut down every other ISU player ... decided to live with whatever Bird would do to Anderson one on one without help.
I think an RU-MSU Final Four game could have been a whale of a game. I am certain RU would have put Anderson (RU's best non-center defensive player) on Magic Johnson. Bailey would have covered Jay Vincent (MSU's 6'7" center). Kelvin Troy would have had to cover MSU's PF, Ron Charles, probably (6'8"), though Troy was a very good defensive player, and RU might have put him on Kelser. Alternatively, Troy might have covered Magic, and Anderson covering Kelser. Jelser, Magic and Vincent were all double digit scorers that year for MSU (Kelser averaged 18 ppg, Magic 16 ppg and Vincent averaged just under 14 ppg). Strickland would have covered who Troy did not. RU was a little more balanced, with 4 players averaging 11 ppg or more ... but less deep. But Bailey was a potential equalizer (even if not as good as either Magic or Bird). People forget that ISU was basically just a 2-person team: Bird and Nicks. If you could shut down Nicks, even if Bird dominated, against a good and balanced team, ISU could be beaten (even though they were undefeated going into the Championship game ... RU beating the last team to beat them).
A real bummer.
Jelly
There is no doubt that Rutgers beats penn in that game. None
The hype for Rutgers making the final four would have been huge. Remember...Indiana state was unbeaten and the last team to beat bird add Indiana state was Rutgers who beat them in the RAC the year before in the NiT
Also...with a week to prepare, I think tom young plays a box and one with kelvin Troy and Abdel taking turns on magic. Unlike 77-78 with Rodney Duncan and Hollis which ran, played fast and mixed up defenses....the 78-79 knights played a lot of Zone. With a week to prepare../think tom goes box in one with kelvin Troy and Abdel.
There is no doubt that Rutgers beats penn in that game. None
The hype for Rutgers making the final four would have been huge. Remember...Indiana state was unbeaten and the last team to beat bird add Indiana state was Rutgers who beat them in the RAC the year before in the NiT
Also...with a week to prepare, I think tom young plays a box and one with kelvin Troy and Abdel taking turns on magic. Unlike 77-78 with Rodney Duncan and Hollis which ran, played fast and mixed up defenses....the 78-79 knights played a lot of Zone. With a week to prepare../think tom goes box in one with kelvin Troy and Abdel.
