What has happened to dominate centers?

[ruready4somefootball]

I understand that the 3 pt shot has changed the game,but I remember watching Alcindor/Jabbar, Russell, Wilt,Shaq and so many others? I feel it was so much better to watch rather than the "swing,swing around the perimeter" for an open 3pt shot. It was so much more of a 1/2 court offense with defense being so much more in play. Sorry, going on 64 and I kind of miss those days. I know the players are much more athletic, and 6'9 kids would be centers in my day are 4's today,but I'd love to see teams get back to more of a inside game.

 

[Plum Street]

The most recent guy you mentioned played college basketball 30 years ago.

 

[LotusAggressor]

The analytics revolution has changed the game. Coaches and a few mathematcians figured out that 3 points are worth more than 2. This kind of criticism always happens when the game changes.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

The dominant players aren't the tallest as much as how mobile and strong they are. The Zion phenomenon is what we are seeing, where the player and his skill set aren't on the same page yet. The physical footspeed and leaping abilities outweigh the height and old school bigs that need the ball to be effective.

It's more about having a unique skill set or ability.

 

[LotusAggressor]

To be successful with an "old school" center, you need a great point guard. As great and dominant as Kareem was, all of the championships he won in his NBA career were with either Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson, two of the greatest ever at the position.

 

[Knight Ed]

The old school guys can also be a defensive liability as they would have to step out and cover a jump shooter and stay with him off the dribble now. They would also have to run the floor on defense. A lot of those guys stayed planted in the lane on defense and were last guy up the court in the transition game.

 

[Big East Beast]

I understand that the 3 pt shot has changed the game,but I remember watching Alcindor/Jabbar, Russell, Wilt,Shaq and so many others? I feel it was so much better to watch rather than the "swing,swing around the perimeter" for an open 3pt shot. It was so much more of a 1/2 court offense with defense being so much more in play. Sorry, going on 64 and I kind of miss those days. I know the players are much more athletic, and 6'9 kids would be centers in my day are 4's today,but I'd love to see teams get back to more of a inside game.

I’m a bit younger (45) so saw Kareem at the very end of his career. He was a special player and it’s remarkable that no one has realized the hook shot was unstoppable and made it a key part of their repertoire.

I did see many great centers through the years- Ewing, Olajuwon, Mourning, D Robinson, Shaq

I think there are several in today’s game that are in the same mold. I hesitate to say that today’s player is “more athletic” but the game is certainly tailored to a more open style. I have to admit I’m not the biggest NBA fan either, but I think it’s hard to argue that there aren’t dominant centers and while they all can step out to 3 or face the basket, their game is still fairly “traditional”

Anthony Davis
Karl Anthony Townes
Joel Embiid

 

[knight82]

College basketball is a guards game now. I don't see that changing

 

[G- RUnit]

To be successful with an "old school" center, you need a great point guard. As great and dominant as Kareem was, all of the championships he won in his NBA career were with either Oscar Robertson or Magic Johnson, two of the greatest ever at the position.

Oscar was old and beat up and hardly reason Kareem won his first title.

 

[superfan01]

People complained about the dominate center. Now they complain about the guards.

 

[JavaDunk18]

It is funny how the “math” works out..yes, 3 points is better than two, but if the percentages of completion are factored in, it gets more complicted. The Rutgers team of ‘76 averaged over 90 points a game, and that was a decade before the 3 point shot. Of course a lot of thoses points were on fast break layups. - Jordan the steal to Dabney...etc

 

[just.a.fan]

Not sure about a dominate center.
As to a dominant center how about sir Isaac Haas from Purdue? Completely changed and controlled how the defense had to adjust.

 

[wheezer]

for the youngsters here, this is what a dominant center did back in ye olden times....

283 in your face dunks over the course of three years..... unmatched by anyone in college

James Bailey

While at Rutgers, Bailey was a formidable player, displaying a strong inside presence in addition to possessing great leaping ability. He was famous for his conversion of "alley oop" passes into slam dunks. The rule allowing dunking was re-instituted in college basketball beginning with the 1976-77 season, Bailey's sophomore year. Bailey's slam dunks were an immediate sensation at Rutgers, and Bailey led the team with 88 dunks as a sophomore. He increased this number to 116 as a junior. However, as a senior, he was met with constant double and triple teaming, and Rutgers' opponents "held" him to 79 dunks as a senior

Bailey is number three on the Rutgers all-time scoring list (2,034 points), and second in career rebounds behind Phil Sellers (1,047). He is also the second leading shot-blocker in Rutgers history behind Roy Hinson.

Bailey went on to capture All-America honors from UPI and The Sporting News in 1978.

Bailey's #20 jersey was retired by Rutgers in 1993, and he was inducted into the Rutgers Hall of Fame in the same year.

See also

 

[BellyFullOfWhiteDogCrap]

European basketball

 

[blockm2]

It is funny how the “math” works out..yes, 3 points is better than two, but if the percentages of completion are factored in, it gets more complicted. The Rutgers team of ‘76 averaged over 90 points a game, and that was a decade before the 3 point shot. Of course a lot of thoses points were on fast break layups. - Jordan the steal to Dabney...etc

1976 Rutgers attempted 2666 FGs and 804 FTs to score 3079 points, 47% on FGs and 68% on FTs. They scored 90 points per game because the game was at a very fast pace, not because they were super efficient on offense.

For comparison, the 2019 Rutgers team attempted 1842 FGs and 584 FTs to score 2105 points.

So the 1976 team scored 974 more points using an extra 824 FGs and 220 FTs.



Basketball back then was much different. Teams very rarely played transition defense and shots were taken quite quickly.

 

[koko2315]

Until NCAA bounces the 3pt arc back to NBA range it’s going to get worse. 3PA are just to efficient to pass up.

 

[ruready4somefootball]

I feel the 3 pt shot has made college basketball more exciting and the NBA unwatchable.Talk about unwatchable, the 4 corner offense Dean ran at North Carolina could have killed the popularity college basketball enjoys today!

 

[Night Man]

It is funny how the “math” works out..yes, 3 points is better than two, but if the percentages of completion are factored in, it gets more complicted.

Certainly... which is why it took until recently for analysts to come to a conclusion

 

[JavaDunk18]

a lot of the extra shots were from putbacks after breaks. Rutgers ‘76 team had around 400 steals. This year’s had 200...and on the Bailey topic - if the ‘76 team had Bailey as he was his last 2 years, the final 4 could have turned out differently...

 

[RUHoopsguard]

As @BigEastBeast replied earlier, there is a reason why Joel Embiid will

make a billion dollars from playing the best sport we have !! If you doubt

this, just type Joel into your google machine, and he will be one of the first

5 options, off to work---safe week to you all.

 

[mikefla]

IMO big dominate centers have been replaced by more mobile big guys like Zion Williamson at Duke......hugely mobile....280lbs

 

[ruready4somefootball]

IMO big dominate centers have been replaced by more mobile big guys like Zion Williamson at Duke......hugely mobile....280lbs

Lets see how long his NBA career lasts carrying that weight around for 82+ games a year. Way too heavy for such a young guy.

 

[wheezer]

a lot of the extra shots were from putbacks after breaks. Rutgers ‘76 team had around 400 steals. This year’s had 200...and on the Bailey topic - if the ‘76 team had Bailey as he was his last 2 years, the final 4 could have turned out differently...

Yes, I have always thought that if Bailey was a junior in 76 it would have been really interesting

 

[dconifer]

College basketball is a guards game now. I don't see that changing

I think the OP understands that, and is asking "why?"...

 

[mikefla]

Lets see how long his NBA career lasts carrying that weight around for 82+ games a year. Way too heavy for such a young guy.

you are right.,..I expect ZION will lose weight just by default in an 82 game season

Most teams in college may have a player the call a center, but they are mostly built like power forwards, while the team is hopefully made up by tall guards. Its a different game now. When I see an NBA game they ALL look and MOVE like over-sized power forwards. My fav CENTER is Nicolo Vucevic........7 ft....260lbs...very mobile and the high scorer on the team MAGIC ......he moves like a power forward and hits outside a good bit. I dont think we will ever see another Lew Alcindor or a Wilt Chamberlain again.

 

[blockm2]

I think aside from just the 3 points being more than 2, it's teams realizing that spacing is important for offensive efficiency that has lead to more and more big men that can shoot being on the floor. If you play a center that isn't a threat from more than 10 feet, it means his man can just sit in the paint the entire possession which clogs up the lane and prevents guards and wings from being able to drive.

It is simply harder to guard teams that have more shooters on the floor. You have fewer avenues for providing help defense and so it opens up the floor for guys that can drive.

 

[NickRU714]

Teams and coaches and players are frankly smarter now than in the past.

Defense - just watch GSW and Boogie Cousins come the playoffs.
Teams will force defensive switches until you have Boogie covering James Harden 25ft from the basket.
Then it's not even a matchup anymore.

Offense - as has been said they just clog up the floor if they don't have the ball.
Players are too big and fast now so teams are trying to maximize space and efficiency.


I would like to see Summer League/G-League try and test out an expanded court somehow.

 

[TheB1GTerp]

The analytics revolution has changed the game. Coaches and a few mathematcians figured out that 3 points are worth more than 2. This kind of criticism always happens when the game changes.

No it's when they just let people foul the shit out of the centers and they don't call a thing.

If you shoot 40% at three 3-point and take 10 shots that's 12 points.

A big man to compete must make 60% of his 10 shots of his paint buckets, for 12 points. The thing is instead of big men pick up fouls from defenders hanging on them, shoving, and holding refs would rather call a charge. People slide right underneath while they are going up. I'd like to see the charge zone extended to the entire key.

Happ and Bruno shoot around 80% in they key, and they get hacked to bits. Shaq, looking back on his career, it was atrocious what people got away with.

Yes shooting 3 point shots is great to come back, but always room for big men thant shoot 60-80% and the refs are incompetent.

Big Men can't develop because with 5 fouls, and the amount of idiotic charges called it's just unpleasant if you are a big man fan. Yet a little guard can shove a big man right in the back or hack across the arm, no call.

Big men with proper spacing still do well but feeding a big man, and getting double teamed, they will not call a foul.

 

[Salvi's Headband]

I understand that the 3 pt shot has changed the game,but I remember watching Alcindor/Jabbar, Russell, Wilt,Shaq and so many others? I feel it was so much better to watch rather than the "swing,swing around the perimeter" for an open 3pt shot. It was so much more of a 1/2 court offense with defense being so much more in play. Sorry, going on 64 and I kind of miss those days. I know the players are much more athletic, and 6'9 kids would be centers in my day are 4's today,but I'd love to see teams get back to more of a inside game.

Dominant

 

[Mr Magoo]

Some centers who weren’t considers “dominant” used to be able to get away with big and strong but that’s no longer the case. They need skill and mobility now. However, it’s not just dominant centers that are disappearing. Many teams, if not most, don’t play a center at all. The game is starting to become positionless. Back in the day, it was C, PF, SF, SG, PG. Now you have stretch 4s, point forwards, four-guard lineups, etc.

 

[willisneverrana43]

"What has happened to dominate centers?" Well, statistical analyses of their worth relative to other players under the current rules has dominated them.

 

[ruready4somefootball]

you are right.,..I expect ZION will lose weight just by default in an 82 game season

Most teams in college may have a player the call a center, but they are mostly built like power forwards, while the team is hopefully made up by tall guards. Its a different game now. When I see an NBA game they ALL look and MOVE like over-sized power forwards. My fav CENTER is Nicolo Vucevic........7 ft....260lbs...very mobile and the high scorer on the team MAGIC ......he moves like a power forward and hits outside a good bit. I dont think we will ever see another Lew Alcindor or a Wilt Chamberlain again.

Why??? I also agree with you, but still wonder why.

 

[mikefla]

Why??? I also agree with you, but still wonder why.

IMO its because a trully BIG man like Chamberlan would need to run like a gazelle .....I wonder if we WILL ever see a true BIG CENTER?

 

[RUinFla]

Not sure about a dominate center.
As to a dominant center how about sir Isaac Haas from Purdue? Completely changed and controlled how the defense had to adjust.

Enjoyed watching Happ play. We get BTN here--lost it for a while but they put it back. Even one of the color guys mused about how effective will Happ be in today's NBA. Limited range, poor FT shooter. He will have to extend his range. Can be foul prone. The change in the NBA is recent. One case in point is Dwight Howard, who joined Orlando in 2004 out of HS. Led the league in rebounding a few years in succession, and was right up there in FG%. His coach, Stan Van Gundy surrounded him with four shooters. He was the only true big and the team made the playoffs a few times. He has bounced around since, with diminishing effect. Just not a need for a big rebounding C that is a bad foul shooter--the other teams playing Orlando would hack-a-Dwight, He was born 20 years too late. Not sure Happ will take hold. Wish him all the best.
TL

 

[Caliknight]

Lets see how long his NBA career lasts carrying that weight around for 82+ games a year. Way too heavy for such a young guy.

He will get leaner as he gets on a proper diet regiment. Even at that size, the kid is absolutely explosive. He will lean down a bit and be fine.

 

[LotusAggressor]

No it's when they just let people foul the shit out of the centers and they don't call a thing.

If you shoot 40% at three 3-point and take 10 shots that's 12 points.

A big man to compete must make 60% of his 10 shots of his paint buckets, for 12 points. The thing is instead of big men pick up fouls from defenders hanging on them, shoving, and holding refs would rather call a charge. People slide right underneath while they are going up. I'd like to see the charge zone extended to the entire key.

Happ and Bruno shoot around 80% in they key, and they get hacked to bits. Shaq, looking back on his career, it was atrocious what people got away with.

Yes shooting 3 point shots is great to come back, but always room for big men thant shoot 60-80% and the refs are incompetent.

Big Men can't develop because with 5 fouls, and the amount of idiotic charges called it's just unpleasant if you are a big man fan. Yet a little guard can shove a big man right in the back or hack across the arm, no call.

Big men with proper spacing still do well but feeding a big man, and getting double teamed, they will not call a foul.

That strategy was employed against centers that were bad free throw shooters. It was a percentage play to foul them, since they were much better shooters from the floor than the line.