Why this Total Collapse Was Predictable...needed to be long

[RizwranII]

This fall was predictable.

(A) What made CVS excellent was 1. Amazing recruiting. Right off the bat she got Shawnetta Stewart. Then she gets a class that included maybe #1 player in US in Tasha Pointer and the #1 Canadian player in Tammy Sutton Brown and some other gems. A top ten recruiting class was the norm for years. 2. Her defensive coaching. It was awesome when we would turn a game around watching the full court press executed to the max.

(B) weaknesses: offensive coaching. Most players were never developed offensively, especially the front court players. It has been almost like CVS thinks about the offense as an after thought. 2. Game time coaching. Never has had a real rotation for games or the season. Changing starting lineups just about every season well into Feb. Players played looking over their back. CVS was too quick to yank players after a mistake, even if the rest of their game play was good. Watching from the 3rd row behind the RU bench and watching every away game that was available in any way, you could see that this got into a lot of players heads. Some other points: Some players would be like...now you see them, now you don't. Also felt that CVS usually called Time Outs one possession too late. (minor but not that minor point)

We would beat the teams we should have, but more times than not we would not wipe out the teams we should have, making the games much closer than they should have been.

So why was it predictable that a Total Collapse was coming.

First her defensive edge over other teams slowly eroded over the years.

Now the clincher. Recruiting. The recruiting dropped off the cliff after Tyler's senior HS year. Even her class was nothing compared to the previous years. But she was an McD AA (the last of many). ****Every year including last year, we had more McD AA's on our team than 80% of the BigTen teams combined for the Total History of their programs.

So last year I wrote my thread "The beginning of the End" , Once the recruiting left all we had were CVS's weaknesses.

In my post the only thing that switched was me saying we would be just below .500 this year and the next year would be a disaster, due to Tyler sitting out this year.

DMD..I know you will believe I should have put this on the Houston game thread since I was answering someone. I do not want this post to get somewhat lost on this thread.

The last time you chastised me, you said I was lazy because I didn't read the thread the post should have been on. That new thread ended up being one of the top 5 posts viewed/replied to.

But I promise you this, this will be my last constructive criticism of CVS until another topic comes up like her leaving or something extraordinary.

 

[RUClassof67]

Yet another thread. I'm beginning to think you want her gone.

 

[oldtimer67]

Wow Riz, you saw that recruiting was declining. What a genius. Even the clock on the wall saw that recruiting was declining.

Now, would you care to try to diagnose any of the reasons for the decline in recruiting? One of the first things that should be learned in management is you can't fix a problem if you don't know what causes it. If your opinion is just that CVS suddenly lost it, then don't waste your time replying. There are some reasons why it happened. And those lead to reasons why it can get better. Can it get all the way back to where it was, not any time soon because there is much more competition for the same types of athletes today, and because some of the fixes to problems will take more than a year. But, hey, go ahead and give it a shot. Show us how smart you really are.

 

[richthedentist]

The most important part of her post was b her weaknesses and that is her offensive coaching. This is exactly what held her back from ever winning a national championship plain and simple.
As for getting it back there is no way she can get this program back to anywhere near where it was.

 

[Sir ScarletKnight]

Frankly, having spoken to her, done interviews with her, and been going to games, I think she's done. I don't think she wants to be done, her competitive fire is clearly still there, but the game appears to have passed her by.

I respect the heck out of her and her accomplishments. Unfortunately, her recruiting has fallen off a cliff, her assistants clearly aren't as on the ball as back in the day, and her coaching philosophy is outdated. I think she should retire, or move to a smaller school where she can re-build and reach her thousand wins. I don't see this trajectory turning around anytime soon.

I don't think she lost what it takes to have that top 25 program overnight, but I don't think she's going to get it back anytime soon. I'd rather see the program be turned over to a new coach before the brand name of Rutgers Women's basketball goes the way of the dodo.

 

[rufeelinit]

I think its been going down hill ever since E. Prince left a year early. She still had some good teams after that but not elite teams. Poor roster management, decline in recruiting and an inability to implement an effective offensive scheme seem to be the issues. I never thought they would be this bad.

 

[GL113]

Frankly, having spoken to her, done interviews with her, and been going to games, I think she's done. I don't think she wants to be done, her competitive fire is clearly still there, but the game appears to have passed her by.

I respect the heck out of her and her accomplishments. Unfortunately, her recruiting has fallen off a cliff, her assistants clearly aren't as on the ball as back in the day, and her coaching philosophy is outdated. I think she should retire, or move to a smaller school where she can re-build and reach her thousand wins. I don't see this trajectory turning around anytime soon.

I don't think she lost what it takes to have that top 25 program overnight, but I don't think she's going to get it back anytime soon. I'd rather see the program be turned over to a new coach before the brand name of Rutgers Women's basketball goes the way of the dodo.

 

[GL113]

Totally agree with Sir Scarlet Knight. I met with CVS in November at a practice that I and a friend were invited to. After practice CVS was gracious as always to speak to us about the team. Felt that this was not a going to be a short term fix after speaking to CVS. I got the impression the loss of Pointer and Newton was one of the main reasons for where we are now. Hope CVS goes out gracefully like her mentor Chaney did at Temple. Their careers are so similar from start to finish. I always wish the best for CVS.

 

[MADHAT1]

Riz,
I would love to point out everything you posted was wrong, but the way this season is going : I can't deny you might be making a fairly good ( but overly critical in parts) critiq of what has made RU WBB head downward.
But I do feel your saying this collars was predictable is not true and only being said because RU looks so bad now and it wasn't really something that could be predicted even by someone who has been watching the RU WBB program closely over the years.
Not saying you're a liar, just feel it's hard to believe anyone could have predicted this collapse.

My apologies if you take my opinion the wrong way, not meant to argue , only respectfully disagree with this collapse was predictable statement.

 

[scarlettb]

I got the impression the loss of Pointer and Newton was one of the main reasons for where we are now.

I agree with this statement. We lost Tia Jackson at the same time. Any insight as to why this happened? Personally I have always thought Julie H made her get rid of them. I can't imagine any reason why Vivian would have wanted them to leave, unless it was for them taking a head coach position like Jolette and Carlene did. Certainly she was hampered by them all leaving at the same time.

 

[Knight Time Fan]

Wow Riz, you saw that recruiting was declining. What a genius. Even the clock on the wall saw that recruiting was declining.

Now, would you care to try to diagnose any of the reasons for the decline in recruiting? One of the first things that should be learned in management is you can't fix a problem if you don't know what causes it. If your opinion is just that CVS suddenly lost it, then don't waste your time replying. There are some reasons why it happened. And those lead to reasons why it can get better. Can it get all the way back to where it was, not any time soon because there is much more competition for the same types of athletes today, and because some of the fixes to problems will take more than a year. But, hey, go ahead and give it a shot. Show us how smart you really are.

Actually, Vivian commented on the recruiting problems several years ago in a presser, so Riz wasn't especially perspicacious.

Reasons are numerous, not in any particular order:
- age / contract status of the coach = recruits wondering if the coach will still be there
- loss of assistant coaches = who may have been the players "contact", plus reinforcing the 1st reason
- decline of name recognition for CVS - she was an icon to these recruits parents
- style of play - I agree with those who say that players are not being well coached at lower levels and may want to play in a run and gun
- facilities - has been nothing special at RU
- decline of the program (it is cyclical - the poorer RU does the less attractive RU seems to be to some players).

And others, I am sure.

 

[APKnight]

Similar to John Chaney perhaps, but John never had a team win 5 games or so. His last 3 teams were around .500. I know the season isn't over and mathematically we could finish at or above .500, but it is highly highly unlikely. We're 2-9 and barely beat Bucknell and Bryant.

 

[MADHAT1]

Similar to John Chaney perhaps, but John never had a team win 5 games or so. His last 3 teams were around .500. I know the season isn't over and mathematically we could finish at or above .500, but it is highly highly unlikely. We're 2-9 and barely beat Bucknell and Bryant.

Just checked out Chaney's last 7 years and compared them to Vivian's last 7 ( excluding this season) and they are very similar .

 

[bac2therac]

This fall was predictable.

(A) What made CVS excellent was 1. Amazing recruiting. Right off the bat she got Shawnetta Stewart. Then she gets a class that included maybe #1 player in US in Tasha Pointer and the #1 Canadian player in Tammy Sutton Brown and some other gems. A top ten recruiting class was the norm for years. 2. Her defensive coaching. It was awesome when we would turn a game around watching the full court press executed to the max.

(B) weaknesses: offensive coaching. Most players were never developed offensively, especially the front court players. It has been almost like CVS thinks about the offense as an after thought. 2. Game time coaching. Never has had a real rotation for games or the season. Changing starting lineups just about every season well into Feb. Players played looking over their back. CVS was too quick to yank players after a mistake, even if the rest of their game play was good. Watching from the 3rd row behind the RU bench and watching every away game that was available in any way, you could see that this got into a lot of players heads. Some other points: Some players would be like...now you see them, now you don't. Also felt that CVS usually called Time Outs one possession too late. (minor but not that minor point)

We would beat the teams we should have, but more times than not we would not wipe out the teams we should have, making the games much closer than they should have been.

So why was it predictable that a Total Collapse was coming.

First her defensive edge over other teams slowly eroded over the years.

Now the clincher. Recruiting. The recruiting dropped off the cliff after Tyler's senior HS year. Even her class was nothing compared to the previous years. But she was an McD AA (the last of many). ****Every year including last year, we had more McD AA's on our team than 80% of the BigTen teams combined for the Total History of their programs.

So last year I wrote my thread "The beginning of the End" , Once the recruiting left all we had were CVS's weaknesses.

In my post the only thing that switched was me saying we would be just below .500 this year and the next year would be a disaster, due to Tyler sitting out this year.

DMD..I know you will believe I should have put this on the Houston game thread since I was answering someone. I do not want this post to get somewhat lost on this thread.

The last time you chastised me, you said I was lazy because I didn't read the thread the post should have been on. That new thread ended up being one of the top 5 posts viewed/replied to.

But I promise you this, this will be my last constructive criticism of CVS until another topic comes up like her leaving or something extraordinary.

this is so spot on. Some of us have been saying this for years but shouted down...we had all americans the last two years but underperformed badly, two years a late season tank hurt our seeding and last year not even making the tourney with all that talent was embarrassing

 

[dmd78]

This fall was predictable.

(A) What made CVS excellent was 1. Amazing recruiting. Right off the bat she got Shawnetta Stewart. Then she gets a class that included maybe #1 player in US in Tasha Pointer and the #1 Canadian player in Tammy Sutton Brown and some other gems. A top ten recruiting class was the norm for years. 2. Her defensive coaching. It was awesome when we would turn a game around watching the full court press executed to the max.

(B) weaknesses: offensive coaching. Most players were never developed offensively, especially the front court players. It has been almost like CVS thinks about the offense as an after thought. 2. Game time coaching. Never has had a real rotation for games or the season. Changing starting lineups just about every season well into Feb. Players played looking over their back. CVS was too quick to yank players after a mistake, even if the rest of their game play was good. Watching from the 3rd row behind the RU bench and watching every away game that was available in any way, you could see that this got into a lot of players heads. Some other points: Some players would be like...now you see them, now you don't. Also felt that CVS usually called Time Outs one possession too late. (minor but not that minor point)

We would beat the teams we should have, but more times than not we would not wipe out the teams we should have, making the games much closer than they should have been.

So why was it predictable that a Total Collapse was coming.

First her defensive edge over other teams slowly eroded over the years.

Now the clincher. Recruiting. The recruiting dropped off the cliff after Tyler's senior HS year. Even her class was nothing compared to the previous years. But she was an McD AA (the last of many). ****Every year including last year, we had more McD AA's on our team than 80% of the BigTen teams combined for the Total History of their programs.

So last year I wrote my thread "The beginning of the End" , Once the recruiting left all we had were CVS's weaknesses.

In my post the only thing that switched was me saying we would be just below .500 this year and the next year would be a disaster, due to Tyler sitting out this year.

DMD..I know you will believe I should have put this on the Houston game thread since I was answering someone. I do not want this post to get somewhat lost on this thread.

The last time you chastised me, you said I was lazy because I didn't read the thread the post should have been on. That new thread ended up being one of the top 5 posts viewed/replied to.

But I promise you this, this will be my last constructive criticism of CVS until another topic comes up like her leaving or something extraordinary.

Okay, you saw this coming. We got that by the 3rd or 4th time you mentioned it. I sure hope that you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for your wisdom and foresight. ;-) Just a few days ago, I requested that we end these repetitive and self-congratulatory threads. Please.

p.s. Just to be clear - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just that you're not saying anything new and IMHO your post comes across as "look at how smart I am".

 

[RizwranII]

Riz,
I would love to point out everything you posted was wrong, but the way this season is going : I can't deny you might be making a fairly good ( but overly critical in parts) critiq of what has made RU WBB head downward.
But I do feel your saying this collars was predictable is not true and only being said because RU looks so bad now and it wasn't really something that could be predicted even by someone who has been watching the RU WBB program closely over the years.
Not saying you're a liar, just feel it's hard to believe anyone could have predicted this collapse.

My apologies if you take my opinion the wrong way, not meant to argue , only respectfully disagree with this collapse was predictable statement.

MDHAT1...I rally appreciate that you disagree w me while being respectiveful The same can not be said of other posters.

My post, to many my seem like...not the same CVS bashing again, was trying to tell the whole story. That is why I promised to not post anything like this again. No more needs to be said.

The one thing I differ on is that I predicted this last year in my "The beg of the end" post , after our above .500 team that made the post season NIT tourney.

You are a kindred (RU) spirit and I wish u and your loved ones a great holiday season.

 

[RizwranII]

Yet another thread. I'm beginning to think you want her gone.

Thank you for the respectful post. This post was different in that it put all the piece of the puzzle together.

I am happy to be a RU fan w you and can't wait when we will be posting nothing but positive and happy words after a RU game. Happy Holidays to you and your loved one.

 

[RizwranII]

Wow Riz, you saw that recruiting was declining. What a genius. Even the clock on the wall saw that recruiting was declining.

Now, would you care to try to diagnose any of the reasons for the decline in recruiting? One of the first things that should be learned in management is you can't fix a problem if you don't know what causes it. If your opinion is just that CVS suddenly lost it, then don't waste your time replying. There are some reasons why it happened. And those lead to reasons why it can get better. Can it get all the way back to where it was, not any time soon because there is much more competition for the same types of athletes today, and because some of the fixes to problems will take more than a year. But, hey, go ahead and give it a shot. Show us how smart you really are.

Oldtimer. You are a sad person and I feel sorry for you This is the 2nd time you were Nasty to me No call for it ever. So I will just say I wish you well and hope you have a great holiday season.

 

[RizwranII]

this is so spot on. Some of us have been saying this for years but shouted down...we had all americans the last two years but underperformed badly, two years a late season tank hurt our seeding and last year not even making the tourney with all that talent was embarrassing

Thank you Bac. I have been getting killed about my post. I said years ago that when I constructively criticized CVS and viewed many opposing posts, I felt like I was attacking their Mom. A lot of emotions clouded judgments.

Again thanks for just seeing the real deal I truly wish u and your loved ones enjoy the Holidays.

 

[RizwranII]

Okay, you saw this coming. We got that by the 3rd or 4th time you mentioned it. I sure hope that you don't break your arm patting yourself on the back for your wisdom and foresight. ;-) Just a few days ago, I requested that we end these repetitive and self-congratulatory threads. Please.

p.s. Just to be clear - I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, it's just that you're not saying anything new and IMHO your post comes across as "look at how smart I am".

First, DMD, not to soften this post, but I truly thank you for all your hard work.

PS as for your "pat myself on the back" comment. That is a real sad comment. Do you really believe I am happy to state the reasons why our program is collapsing. I bleed scarlet and would be so happy if CVS was now going for her 1,100 win.

This post was different than all my past posts because it put all the pieces together to answer (IMO) a question that I'm sure is on almost every RU fan's mind.

But again, just like the"lazy" comment, your post was not very nice and un-called for. You probably would have flagged your post if t was another poster, especially if it was anti CVS.

I did say (are u now lazy not reading my whole post) that I would not make another post like this again.

I know your posts are based on a love for RU. And that is great. I hope you and your loved ones enjoy the Holiday's. (not sure how to spell that)

PS; You stating that I "pat myself on the back" really hurts. I bleed Scarlet and would be estatic if CVS was going for her 1,100 win in the next game.

 

[richthedentist]

I agree with Bac And Rizwran in that this program has been on the delcline for at least 4-5 years. Everytime we posted on this board about we got attacked needlessly. As an aside these types of posts are also made on the other boards without getting attacked. Like Bac and Rizwran there is nothing I would like more than to have this team and any other team at Rutgers to be a top team and there is no reason they shouldn't be but as long as CVS stays this will not occur and a move must be made to get this team back to the top

 

[NickyNewark51]

I think its been going down hill ever since E. Prince left a year early. She still had some good teams after that but not elite teams. Poor roster management, decline in recruiting and an inability to implement an effective offensive scheme seem to be the issues. I never thought they would be this bad.

That was a kick in the teeth and I knew bad times were coming !!! A crusher...

 

[nirrad]

I agree about the recruiting. What CVS need to do is start to really go out and get these young ladies like she used to from a national stand point. I think she still got it because Jenue was a top 100 player so I I don't think all is lost. She has a top 50 player coming in next year. I would love for CVS to take a look at Newark like she used to when Shabazz was a powerhouse. We lost several recruits that became stars in college (Lauren Mincy, Aaliyah Hartsford) just to start. I think she may need an assistant who is a go getter in the recruiting world. Hell if CVS gave me the opportunity, I would be recruiting these girls from Texas to New Hampshire.

 

[RizwranII]

I agree about the recruiting. What CVS need to do is start to really go out and get these young ladies like she used to from a national stand point. I think she still got it because Jenue was a top 100 player so I I don't think all is lost. She has a top 50 player coming in next year. I would love for CVS to take a look at Newark like she used to when Shabazz was a powerhouse. We lost several recruits that became stars in college (Lauren Mincy, Aaliyah Hartsford) just to start. I think she may need an assistant who is a go getter in the recruiting world. Hell if CVS gave me the opportunity, I would be recruiting these girls from Texas to New Hampshire.

You are very right about needing an assistant coach for recruiting. I believe recruiting started to crumble after Carlene Mitchell left for an unsuccessful head coaching stint in California. But she could recruit for RU and CVS.

But given the state of the program right now, it would take years to bring back the recruits. IMO I don't think under CVS that we can ever get back to the glory days of recruiting top 10 classes no matter who the assistant (recruiting) coaches are.

RU is still RU in way of having a history of being an elite program that can rise again. This is a strong tool that can be utilized to bring back the top recruits.

But, it will not happen w CVS, Given my post on her weaknesses, RU will be lucky to be a .500 team (Very Lucky) in the next few years if CVS is the coach. That will erase any chance of a recruiting renaissance.

RU needs new and younger blood in way of a head coach that HS players can get excited about. The new energetic coach can then also use the tool of RU's history of being an elite team.

Basically..out w the old...in with the new.

 

[rimsky]

So, next question. Will Hobbs offer an iron clad 4-year contract with no escape clause? He seems too smart to do that?

 

[Knight Time Fan]

You are very right about needing an assistant coach for recruiting. I believe recruiting started to crumble after Carlene Mitchell left for an unsuccessful head coaching stint in California. But she could recruit for RU and CVS.

But given the state of the program right now, it would take years to bring back the recruits. IMO I don't think under CVS that we can ever get back to the glory days of recruiting top 10 classes no matter who the assistant (recruiting) coaches are.

RU is still RU in way of having a history of being an elite program that can rise again. This is a strong tool that can be utilized to bring back the top recruits.

But, it will not happen w CVS, Given my post on her weaknesses, RU will be lucky to be a .500 team (Very Lucky) in the next few years if CVS is the coach. That will erase any chance of a recruiting renaissance.

RU needs new and younger blood in way of a head coach that HS players can get excited about. The new energetic coach can then also use the tool of RU's history of being an elite team.

Basically..out w the old...in with the new.

You are optimistic about selling RU to recruits based on its history. While it can't hurt, it is "ancient history" to high school aged folks today. I suspect the "best" advantage of our history is the number of players in the WNBA from RU.

And RU has never been "elite", just very, very good. About the 10th best team in the country for about a 10 year period, based on almost any metric I looked at - and I did look at the time. Current elite teams are UConn and Notre Dame, probably Stanford and maybe someone from the group of Maryland, FSU and South Carolina. Unless you have a unique way of defining elite.

Players ultimately in most cases choose the school based on the coach. Not only success, but personality, "promise/outlook" (I don't mean "promises" although, unfortunately, that can be a factor too), what they think the coach can do for them, as well as relationships with assistants, reaction to other players, prospects of playing time, . . .

 

[nirrad]

You are very right about needing an assistant coach for recruiting. I believe recruiting started to crumble after Carlene Mitchell left for an unsuccessful head coaching stint in California. But she could recruit for RU and CVS.

But given the state of the program right now, it would take years to bring back the recruits. IMO I don't think under CVS that we can ever get back to the glory days of recruiting top 10 classes no matter who the assistant (recruiting) coaches are.

RU is still RU in way of having a history of being an elite program that can rise again. This is a strong tool that can be utilized to bring back the top recruits.

But, it will not happen w CVS, Given my post on her weaknesses, RU will be lucky to be a .500 team (Very Lucky) in the next few years if CVS is the coach. That will erase any chance of a recruiting renaissance.

RU needs new and younger blood in way of a head coach that HS players can get excited about. The new energetic coach can then also use the tool of RU's history of being an elite team.

Basically..out w the old...in with the new.

Who do you suggest? One of Gino's assistants

 

[RizwranII]

Who do you suggest? One of Gino's assistants

As a head coach maybe. Don't see any of them leave to become an assistant coach at RU.

 

[bac2therac]

Hire Gino...that would make a splash..of course some on this board wouldnt want him

 

[MADHAT1]

Hire Gino...that would make a splash..of course some on this board wouldnt want him

[roll]

 

[dmd78]

Hire Gino...that would make a splash..of course some on this board wouldnt want him

I'm assuming that you're joking... but Geno would be ridiculously expensive.

 

[MADHAT1]

I'm assuming that you're joking... but Geno would be ridiculously expensive.

but his pay would make a great complaint

 

[RizwranII]

but his pay would make a great complaint

Big time LOL Madhat1!!!!