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OT: MMR vaccine not associated with autism, even in at risk children

The study is trying to determine if there is a statistically significant difference in the autism rate of at risk children due to vaccination. The methodology is not necessarily wrong but so many people overlook the simple implications of the test sample. The abstract states that there were 1,929 high risk kids and 134 of them (6.95%) got Autism with no statistical difference in the Autism rate between the 1,409 vaccinated children and the 520 non-vaccinated children.

At a 6.95% incident rate we would expect 98 vaccinated and 36 non-vaccinated high risk children to become autistic if there is no effect due to vaccination. If the non-vaccinated group had a much lower incidence rate than 6.95% or if the vaccinated group had a much higher incidence rate then we could conclude that vaccinations cause Autism. So the question is simple, How much higher/lower would the rates have to be to say that there is a statistically significant difference?

Since the sample size is so small, the non-vaccinated group incident rate would have to be 59% lower than 6.95% or drop to an incidence rate of 4.06% to be statistically significant at the 99% level of significance. The vaccinated group, which is relatively small but at least larger would have to increase by 25% to 8.70% to conclude that vaccinations cause Autism.

You see, statistics are your friend. Since vaccinations don't increase the rate of Autism by 25% in high risk children big pharma can conclude that vaccinations don't cause Autism. This study is a piece of crap and any idiot that has been using it to make a conclusion regarding the safety of vaccinations is just an imbecile.

85 - without checking your math, you are correct that with a small sample size there is a large margin to be statistically significant.

But the study found that the rate of autism was LOWER for vaccinated kids vs nonvaccinated kids, both in the small at-risk and large non-at-risk groups.

Since vaccinated kids have lower autism rates, the margin for statistical significance only stops the investgators from concluding that vaccines help prevent autism.
 
85 - without checking your math, you are correct that with a small sample size there is a large margin to be statistically significant.

But the study found that the rate of autism was LOWER for vaccinated kids vs nonvaccinated kids, both in the small at-risk and large non-at-risk groups.

Since vaccinated kids have lower autism rates, the margin for statistical significance only stops the investgators from concluding that vaccines help prevent autism.

C'mon you can't just quote one side of meaningless findings. It wasn't mentioned in most reports on this study, with good reason, but there were also statistically insignificant findings that the MMR raised the risk of autism in the much larger group of kids who did not have an older sibling with autism (R=1.12). The study should have simply stopped at finding a number of MMR unvaccinated kids with autism.

But as I mentioned in an earlier post - Just let this issue go. Most people don't believe in the US don't believe this anyway, and vaccination rates in the US were not affected by this fiasco the way they were in the uk. If you want to raise vaccination rates, I really think this is an unproductive conversation at best, and counter productive at worst. The recent mumps outbreaks probably have more to do with vaccination rates overseas, and the effectiveness of the mumps component. The top mentioned reasons may have changed in the US, but the number of kids unvaccinated against mumps is about the same as it was before the Lancet publication.
 
85 - without checking your math, you are correct that with a small sample size there is a large margin to be statistically significant.

But the study found that the rate of autism was LOWER for vaccinated kids vs nonvaccinated kids, both in the small at-risk and large non-at-risk groups.

Since vaccinated kids have lower autism rates, the margin for statistical significance only stops the investigators from concluding that vaccines help prevent autism.
Upstream you are being played by the propaganda. If the rate is not statistically significantly lower, then it is not lower. The Forbes reporter is writing a story and twisting the results in a manner that no legitimate scientist would do. There is not a legitimate scientist that would put their hand on a bible and state that the results show that Autism was lower for vaccinated kids.

As far as what the difference in the non-statistically significant rates were, the article and the abstract do not share them.

Here is the quote from the article to prove my point:

"In fact, in the raw analysis of the study published in JAMA today, the likelihood of developing autism was actually lower for those at-risk children if they received the vaccine, though that finding was not statistically significant and no one would suggest that vaccination reduces autism risk."

 
Really? You didn't pick up on the fact that I was pointing out the absurdity in your previous post claiming that it is only statistical significance which stops a conclusion that vaccines cause autism.
I'm sorry I missed your point. But aren't we talking about a statistical study here?
 
The study is trying to determine if there is a statistically significant difference in the autism rate of at risk children due to vaccination. The methodology is not necessarily wrong but so many people overlook the simple implications of the test sample. The abstract states that there were 1,929 high risk kids and 134 of them (6.95%) got Autism with no statistical difference in the Autism rate between the 1,409 vaccinated children and the 520 non-vaccinated children.

At a 6.95% incident rate we would expect 98 vaccinated and 36 non-vaccinated high risk children to become autistic if there is no effect due to vaccination. If the non-vaccinated group had a much lower incidence rate than 6.95% or if the vaccinated group had a much higher incidence rate then we could conclude that vaccinations cause Autism. So the question is simple, How much higher/lower would the rates have to be to say that there is a statistically significant difference?

Since the sample size is so small, the non-vaccinated group incident rate would have to be 59% lower than 6.95% or drop to an incidence rate of 4.06% to be statistically significant at the 99% level of significance. The vaccinated group, which is relatively small but at least larger would have to increase by 25% to 8.70% to conclude that vaccinations cause Autism.

You see, statistics are your friend. Since vaccinations don't increase the rate of Autism by 25% in high risk children big pharma can conclude that vaccinations don't cause Autism. This study is a piece of crap and any idiot that has been using it to make a conclusion regarding the safety of vaccinations is just an imbecile.

The next time I take your advice on how to interpret statistical evaluations will be the first. You are completely unable to see the forest for the trees. The sample size is modest, not small, and the main point of this study was that even in children who have older siblings with autism (i.e., at risk children for autism, since there is a known genetic component of autism), the rates of autism in these younger siblings was clearly not a function of whether these children had been vaccinated with MMR or not.

This study, if it were the only study evaluating autism rates vs. vaccination rates, would certainly not be considered the most statistically robust study ever conducted, due to the modest sample size of 1929 children who are younger siblings of children with autism. However, in the larger picture, when combined with the dozen or so major studies, with much larger sample sizes, that have unequivocally shown no statistical correlation between autism and vaccination, this study simply becomes one more study that confirms this lack of correlation, as per the editorial, below, wihch accompanied the study.

"In an editorial accompanying the study, Dr. Bryan King, a psychiatrist and autism specialist at Seattle Children’s Hospital, noted all the ways this research question has been studied. “Taken together,” he said, “some dozen studies have now shown that the age of onset of ASD does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, the severity or course of ASD does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children, and the now the risk of ASD recurrence in families does not differ between vaccinated and unvaccinated children.”

To me, it's unconscionable that we're still wasting time and money on this issue, when there are so many more pressing medical issues out there. And it's a sad reflection on the inability of so many people to understand fairly simple scientific and statistical concepts. Also, by the way, this study and most of the other studies on this topic was NOT funded by Big Pharma - most (if not all - I haven't checked them all) of these studies have been funded/supported by governmental entities, like NIH, CDC, the Dept. of Health and Human Services, etc. But don't let that get in the way of your hysterical rants.
 
Numbers, thanks for remembering that I have a small but very successful analytics firm. My business partner and I bill a little more per month than a senior pharma guy like you does in a good year so you can understand that we don't have time for you as a client and you won't have the privilege of taking our analytical advice.

Two pieces of free advice. First the study is poor which you now seem to accept. A poor study on top of other evidence adds nothing. Pretty simple. The second is that in my experience when one has a very small sample, and fails to reject the null hypothesis, concluding that the null hypothesis is true is usually only done by the dumb or unethical.

Have a good day.
 
Thank you Skillet. As I stated back on page 1 or 2, there is enough antidotal evidence to hypothesize that there might be some sub-segment of the population with unknown characteristics that cause autistic behaviors after vaccination. All these studies have proven is that vaccines don't statistically speaking cause autism in the population of children in the world. However the evidence seems to point that we might want to understand the unique characteristics of kids that seemingly have/had reactions.

The original study that suggested there was a link between MMR and autism was MADE UP. Fraudelent. A fake!

So while there is a possibility of some susceptible sub-segment there is nothing to sugges that this is true. It is not grounded in evidence.
It is not at present a scientifcally valid hypothesis. It is simply an idea or a notion or a belief. It is contrary to strong evidence.

Loyal
 
Numbers, thanks for remembering that I have a small but very successful analytics firm. My business partner and I bill a little more per month than a senior pharma guy like you does in a good year so you can understand that we don't have time for you as a client and you won't have the privilege of taking our analytical advice.

Two pieces of free advice. First the study is poor which you now seem to accept. A poor study on top of other evidence adds nothing. Pretty simple. The second is that in my experience when one has a very small sample, and fails to reject the null hypothesis, concluding that the null hypothesis is true is usually only done by the dumb or unethical.

Have a good day.

Congrats on your business, although I assume you're much better at hiding your arrogance with your clients than you are here. Considering I work with some of the best statisticians in the world, don't think I'll be needing your services, thanks. I work with people who simply love science and are amazing at it - they work in R&D in companies like mine so they're free to pursue cutting edge science and mostly don't have to deal with the BS associated with running a business.

The point is that how much money makes is not necessarily the best indicator of how good one is at a particular skill, scientific or otherwise. I have 2 very good friends who used to work with me, but struck out on their own and are now multimillionaires, as they're even better businessmen than scientists, yet they say they never worked with smarter people than when they were at Merck.

I also never said the study was poor - I said it had a moderate sample size and that it wasn't as robust, with regard to statistical power, as many other studies investigating the association of autism and vaccines.

Lastly, the fact that you apparently don't even understand that correlation does not prove causation makes me question whether you really have any statistical "chops" - here's the offending sentence you wrote: "If the non-vaccinated group had a much lower incidence rate than 6.95% or if the vaccinated group had a much higher incidence rate then we could conclude that vaccinations cause Autism." So full of wrong - smh. Do you need me to explain it to you or is your partner the one who actually has some knowledge of statistics?
 
Usually not that arrogant with clients but I do have a bad habit of treating others in a manner in which they behave.

Also, congrats on the causation vs. correlation comment. Ha. Ha.

The bottom line is there are around 38 siblings of autistic children that became autistic in this study, this is a painfully small number especially when it was stated above that 1:60 kids have ASD. Sample was not an issue. As I mentioned numerous times, many folks question if there are a subset of children that react to vaccinations. This study might have helped in understanding that with respect to high risk children. Unfortunately it did not.

The problem I have is the implication that vaccinations do not increase the rate of Autism in high risk children. The derived result is that vaccinations do not increase the rate of Autism by more than 25% in high risk children. Unfortunately this is much less powerful a message so some, including the author, twist the results for the dramatic.

Science can be a wonderful thing. Bad science sucks. If part of this study was to prove vaccinations are ok, even for siblings of autistic children, then it failed miserably, was a waste of taxpayer dollars and could have been much more effective with a decent sampling methodology.

I'm sorry that we are different. I'm not willing to draw potentially significant conclusions on a sample of 38, especially when it has lifelong implications.
 
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I have absolutely no statistics on this, but I'd guess that a majority of the measels deaths in children noted above, also happened because of poor nutrition, and health care. In this case, measels vaccine is a great choice to have. How many well feed, healthy American children who contracted measles, died of measles? I'd rather roll the dice with measles, than risk a tiny chance of autism.

I've never had the MMR vaccine. Contracted Mumps and Measles back to back when I was four (1968 - no vaccine back then). Stayed in bed for about a month, with Mom taking care of me. I'm still here. Had Whooping Cough six years ago even though I was vaccinated. Can see how it would kill the weak and old. Was a bitch. Got the polio vaccine in 1965. Hope I didn't get the one with Simian Virus 40. But I should be OK since all vaccines are safe. http://www.sv40foundation.org/CPV-link.html

Here is the graph that confirms your point about nutrition and measles. Notice that the death rates fell in the U.S. long before the vaccine was introduced. For sure poor nutrition and sanitation multiplies the death rate in third world countries.

qvZ37uW.jpg


Here is the link for the full essay that the graph come from: http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles

Read carefully these undeniable facts from the essay:

"In the pre-vaccine era, when the natural measles virus infected the entire population, measles — “typically a benign childhood illness,” as Clinical Pediatrics described it — was welcomed for providing lifetime immunity, thus avoiding dangerous adult infections. In today’s vaccine era, adults have accounted for one quarter to one half of measles cases; most of them involve pneumonia, one-quarter of them hospitalization.

Also importantly, measles during pregnancies have risen dangerously because expectant mothers no longer have lifetime immunity. Today’s vaccinated expectant mothers are at risk because the measles vaccine wanes with time and because it often fails to protect against measles."​
 
Here is the graph that confirms your point about nutrition and measles. Notice that the death rates fell in the U.S. long before the vaccine was introduced. For sure poor nutrition and sanitation multiplies the death rate in third world countries.

qvZ37uW.jpg


Here is the link for the full essay that the graph come from: http://business.financialpost.com/fp-comment/lawrence-solomon-the-untold-story-of-measles

Read carefully these undeniable facts from the essay:

"In the pre-vaccine era, when the natural measles virus infected the entire population, measles — “typically a benign childhood illness,” as Clinical Pediatrics described it — was welcomed for providing lifetime immunity, thus avoiding dangerous adult infections. In today’s vaccine era, adults have accounted for one quarter to one half of measles cases; most of them involve pneumonia, one-quarter of them hospitalization.

Also importantly, measles during pregnancies have risen dangerously because expectant mothers no longer have lifetime immunity. Today’s vaccinated expectant mothers are at risk because the measles vaccine wanes with time and because it often fails to protect against measles."​

Classic case of "cherry-picking" data. Yes, mortality rates had dropped hugely, due to the combination of better nutrition and better health care for the infected (including better diagnosis and transportation to medical professionals). But the article completely ignores the morbidity (incidence rates), which had dropped only a bit by the early 1960s when the vaccine became available. It also ignores the potential for huge reductions in deaths, worldwide, from utilization of the vaccine.

Hundreds of thousands of people were still getting measles every year in the early 60s and still sometimes getting quite sick, at great cost, but it is true they were dying far less frequently. Pretty sure any logical health care professional would say avoiding sickness and the relatively small risk of dying from measles (small, but still hugely greater than the chances of any serious side effects from the vaccine) is still a huge benefit resulting from the vaccine, far outweighing any risks from the vaccine.
 
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