Contrary on Ali
- Thread starter ngrant
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Really, citing 2 people out of thousands. Do you want me to cite McCain and others? The Dems have every bit as many dodgers, no debate about it.
So now you want to play the patriot card. There is no doubt that McCain did his duty ( but not well according to your boy the Donald), but you would probably have to pass a kidney stone before you would express admiration for any of the legion of Democrats who served their country. Your simply a partisan hack and a PUTZ to boot.
Silly guy, you are the one going partisan and calling out one side of the aisle. I just pointed that out, so stop crying.
As someone who just called out Republican politicians, I can assure you that it wasn't for the purpose of singling out Republican politicians, and I think the post I made bears out that point. Not sure why you're bent on making a polarizing digression into partisan party politics when that wasn't the point of the post.
These guys weren't "Republicans" in this context; two were guys who sent American soldiers off to war on equally shaky footing while either seeking draft deferments or getting preferential duty assignments if they even bothered to show up for their duties at all, and the other called a man who voluntarily remained in a Vietcong prisoner-of-war camp out of respect for his comrades "a loser." As such, these three are the first that come to mind when discussing hypocrisy among leaders on the subject of military service and the draft, regardless of party affiliation.
If you've got a notorious Democratic leader in mind, who dodged the draft, insults those who went in his place, and frivolously sends others into harms way, I encourage you to make your point by using their names -- and I'm sure there are more than a few Democratic Senators and Congressmen who voted to go into Iraq while their military-aged sons were nowhere near a recruiting station.
Not everyone can be Jim Webb.
Serious question for those that served in Vietnam. Do the majority of you dislike draft dodgers?
I completely understand why some people would ask themselves why the hell they were supposed to travel around the world and fight a bunch of poor people that posed no threat to their family or country.
Obviously others had it ingrained in them to serve their country and not to question those in power and probably believed it was a just war. But looking back and knowing what you know now about the war and the bullshit threat of communism that was force fed to the American population, do you feel different?
I completely understand why some people would ask themselves why the hell they were supposed to travel around the world and fight a bunch of poor people that posed no threat to their family or country.
Obviously others had it ingrained in them to serve their country and not to question those in power and probably believed it was a just war. But looking back and knowing what you know now about the war and the bullshit threat of communism that was force fed to the American population, do you feel different?
Can you elaborate more about your opinion on this ? Cause on the surface it sounds like a drive by opinion by an uninformed individual who grew up well after the Vietnam War.
I hope I'm wrong about that last sentence. But your next response will clarify your initial POV.
Well this has become a popcorn feast. Most of us here... I'm 48... Can't comprehend what those days were really like. A draft? I wonder how differently things would be if it still existed. Then coming home after serving and what happened to the vets. These are shoes I never had to walk in.
I've given thought to Ali's boasting a lot over the past couple of days. My dad appreciated his sticking to principle so I grew up a fan. However I have disdain for trump because of the boasting. "Look at this black guy. Chicanos love me. My water is the best..." And think he's behaving like a child that doesn't believe it himself. Act like you've been there I believe. Maybe a little hypocritical on my part
I've given thought to Ali's boasting a lot over the past couple of days. My dad appreciated his sticking to principle so I grew up a fan. However I have disdain for trump because of the boasting. "Look at this black guy. Chicanos love me. My water is the best..." And think he's behaving like a child that doesn't believe it himself. Act like you've been there I believe. Maybe a little hypocritical on my part
Actually, no, you're the one going partisan, and it's hardly the first time.
Vietnam and Iraq were two of the biggest foreign policy/military blunders in our lifetime, both were ideological wars started under false pretenses that resulted in countless lives and treasure lost on both sides as well as planting the seed of hatred for generations to come. That said, there is honor in both answering the call vs standing up for your true believes, political or otherwise, that is the true meaning of a democracy.
Bush absolutely dodged the war. He got himself into the National Guard, which you couldn't do without real good pull, and unlike today the Guard didn't go overseas.
My biggest problem with Ali was not his refusal to serve, although I didn't agree with it. Ali grew up a middle class kid in Louisville not wanting for anything in his life. For him to call Joe Frazier, the son of a share-cropper, a man who actually fought his way out of poverty, an "Uncle Tom," was disgusting. One of the hackneyed stories about Ali involves how somebody stole his brand new $60 bike and a cop told him that if he wanted to fight the thief he'd have to learn how to box. About this time Frazier was probably wondering where his next meal was coming from. Always liked Frazier better. For me the greatest part of Ali's career was when Frazier's left hook put him on his ass. One of my greatest memories will always be shaking that mighty left hand.
The man is dead and was a hero to many. May he rest in peace. His strategy in the Foreman fight was brilliant, (although Angelo Dundee illegally loosened the top rope before the fight so Ali could lean further away from Foreman.) But that fight to me was his greatest moment. His later clowning, not taking fights seriously, and then hanging on too long to get pummeled by Holmes lessened him.
The man is dead and was a hero to many. May he rest in peace. His strategy in the Foreman fight was brilliant, (although Angelo Dundee illegally loosened the top rope before the fight so Ali could lean further away from Foreman.) But that fight to me was his greatest moment. His later clowning, not taking fights seriously, and then hanging on too long to get pummeled by Holmes lessened him.
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Yeah.....but we did it for "freedom" and "democracy".
Seriously, I've never been a big fan of Follow The Leader or Obey.
Blindly following the Leader's orders and going off to fight a stupid war that was obviously unjust is to me just so wrong. No way I was doing it..
Hindsight is 20/20. The rationale for the Vietnam War was to stop the spread of Communism, which was perceived to be a real threat. Kennedy, a Democrat, escalated the involvement, Johnson did not seek a new term due, in large part to the anti-war movement (which did not exist I don't think during Kennedy's time), and Nixon was there to see the end. I had a bad draft number and, fortunately, was able to join an Army Reserve MP unit (through a connection) and did not go overseas, otherwise my mother would have had a heart attack. I have tremendous respect for those patriots who served and totally understand any animosity they had (there was a lot) toward Ali for not serving. Ali sacrificed much to take the stand that he did, and I respect him for that as well. Ali's treatment of Frazier was terrible, as noted above, but he was also a powerful positive symbol for many. RIP.
And Joe McCarthy's as well.
Seriously, how many two-bit military dictators...particularly in South and Central America...did the U.S. prop up in the name of this phony "religion" ? Diem was one as well.
Which one of them was worth dying or killing for ?
As one who made it home, I can't say it any better than Luke did. This is powerful stuff and on the money.
I don't disagree with you. I'm not justifying the Vietnam War, but stopping the spread of Communism was a real concern back then. I think it was a more realistic threat to US security, in fact, than today's terrorism, which is also used as justification for irrational overreactions. And there's no doubt that the US propped up dictators throughout the world.
Countries make mistakes. The Iraq War and Vietnam Wars were both mistakes imo. People can hate Ali for the stand he took, but maybe if more people took a similar stand more would still be alive. I'm not saying war is never necessary. But it's one thing if someone is trying to take your homeland and it's another if the government tells you to go thousands of miles away to fight a battle you don't understand. If someone is attacking your homeland, that makes sense to you. If it's something that people still argue over the war's meaning 50 years later, it doesn't.
We don't need to debate this. Ali won the debate right here and now. I love my country and all you people in it and I would die protecting you any time no questions asked. But I'm not a black man in the 1960s from Kentucky so let's not get all judgmental.
After Hussain took over Kawait, then Saudi Arabia then turkey then we
make our move? Like staying neutral in 1914, or when we stayed out of
it when Hitler was taking over country after country.Don't be silly.
Call it what it was. Your name was called and you served of you didn't. If you didn't, you dodged the draft. There were a multitude of excuses, but you served or you didn't. You are free to respect Ali if you want,but there isn't enough time in my day to honor those that did serve. Over those that chose otherwise.
Graduated from Rutgers in the Spring of 1969, my pre-induction papers were waiting when I got home. Went to Fort Dix and then Fort Lewis for AIT. Assigned to 3rd Infantry Division, in Germany.
My feeling at the time, and today, is that if I were willing to accept the privilege of US citizenship then I needed to accept any sacrifices that go with it. Many, many before me assumed the burden and now it was my turn.
I never felt negatively toward those who avoided the draft, as long as they accepted the consequences of their actions (e.g. leaving the country for Canada was fine as long as the individual was never allowed back).
Anyone who thinks we were not in an existential struggle with Communism from 1947 - 1990 is absurdly ignorant and naive.
My feeling at the time, and today, is that if I were willing to accept the privilege of US citizenship then I needed to accept any sacrifices that go with it. Many, many before me assumed the burden and now it was my turn.
I never felt negatively toward those who avoided the draft, as long as they accepted the consequences of their actions (e.g. leaving the country for Canada was fine as long as the individual was never allowed back).
Anyone who thinks we were not in an existential struggle with Communism from 1947 - 1990 is absurdly ignorant and naive.
RRRRUUUU said: ↑
I assume those that have a problem with Ali must have huge disdain for Trump and Cheney, right?
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And I assume that those calling out Republican politicians also will call out the equally long list of Democrats that dodged the draft. Right?
A New Era for RU Football - Time to do the same with Men's Basketball!
T2Kplus10, Today at 4:37 PM
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No need to make it one party vs the other - regardless regardless of party - the bellicose chicken-hawks, are despicable - the ones who repeatedly went to great lengths & utilized every technicality to avoid service - but who are the first to call for military intervention..... and have no hesitation about politically attacking anybody advocating non-combat conflict resolution & slamming the 'patriotism' of others even sometimes individuals who actually served in combat zones & had live ammunition whizzing past their head - or lost limbs - or were POWs.
So, when Trump - who clearly utilized every option available to avoid personally seeing combat - when Trump throws disrespectful shot at McCain - that is crap.
When John Kerry was getting trashed by chicken hawk commentators because his purple hearts were 'only' from flesh wounds - yeah - wounds from live fire in a combat zone - live fire that was meant to kill, and if it was another 6-10 inches in another direction could have sent him home in a box - I don't care what your political gripe is with a guy - gotta give credit to those who served - and it is a no-class thing to be dismissive of somebody who put their life on the line - no matter how much you might politically dislike them.
It should be progressively getting to be a more of a non issue - we don't have a draft now - people serve in the military mostly by choice - but politics is still hardball - so there will still be cheap shots. What is interesting is that generally the most real battle tested politicians - don't even want to get into the subject - and generally will not lend a hand to slamming another vet.
Go back to 1972 - Anti-war George McGovern was often getting ripped for being anti-war ... for not having the guts to "take on the enemy" ... but you did not hear that from the politicians who served - who knew him & his record .... 35 missions as a bomber pilot in WWII over Germany with the Distinguished Flying Cross and other medals will do that.
I assume those that have a problem with Ali must have huge disdain for Trump and Cheney, right?
_______________________________________________________________________________________
And I assume that those calling out Republican politicians also will call out the equally long list of Democrats that dodged the draft. Right?
A New Era for RU Football - Time to do the same with Men's Basketball!
T2Kplus10, Today at 4:37 PM
________________________________________________________________________________________
No need to make it one party vs the other - regardless regardless of party - the bellicose chicken-hawks, are despicable - the ones who repeatedly went to great lengths & utilized every technicality to avoid service - but who are the first to call for military intervention..... and have no hesitation about politically attacking anybody advocating non-combat conflict resolution & slamming the 'patriotism' of others even sometimes individuals who actually served in combat zones & had live ammunition whizzing past their head - or lost limbs - or were POWs.
So, when Trump - who clearly utilized every option available to avoid personally seeing combat - when Trump throws disrespectful shot at McCain - that is crap.
When John Kerry was getting trashed by chicken hawk commentators because his purple hearts were 'only' from flesh wounds - yeah - wounds from live fire in a combat zone - live fire that was meant to kill, and if it was another 6-10 inches in another direction could have sent him home in a box - I don't care what your political gripe is with a guy - gotta give credit to those who served - and it is a no-class thing to be dismissive of somebody who put their life on the line - no matter how much you might politically dislike them.
It should be progressively getting to be a more of a non issue - we don't have a draft now - people serve in the military mostly by choice - but politics is still hardball - so there will still be cheap shots. What is interesting is that generally the most real battle tested politicians - don't even want to get into the subject - and generally will not lend a hand to slamming another vet.
Go back to 1972 - Anti-war George McGovern was often getting ripped for being anti-war ... for not having the guts to "take on the enemy" ... but you did not hear that from the politicians who served - who knew him & his record .... 35 missions as a bomber pilot in WWII over Germany with the Distinguished Flying Cross and other medals will do that.
No, silly is equating Saddam or Ho and their war-making machines with Hitler's Wehrmacht.
And please tell me what we achieved by ending our neutrality in WW1. Frankly, you couldn't come up with a decent reason why the whole damn war was fought to begin with. Except that somebody played the National anthem and guys all fell into ranks and charged at the other side's machine guns. Yeah....glad we got into that one.
He should have moved to Viet Nam. You think he would have become a
multimilionair there?
If some one did not play the National anthem and ran into machine guns
you would be speaking German right now, or Japanese, but most likely
you probably would not even exist.
Every guy I ever knew who saw combat, even those from wwii, said it was the best time of their lives.
Oddly, all the people who I have met that always want some type of credit never were in harms way. For example, I worked with a guy who was in the service during nam. He still wore his army jacket & from the way he talked I assumed he did 2 tours in the jungle. Turns out he was stationed in Greenland the entire time. The other guy I worked at the same job with really was in the jungle & he didnt want to leave nam.
Oddly, all the people who I have met that always want some type of credit never were in harms way. For example, I worked with a guy who was in the service during nam. He still wore his army jacket & from the way he talked I assumed he did 2 tours in the jungle. Turns out he was stationed in Greenland the entire time. The other guy I worked at the same job with really was in the jungle & he didnt want to leave nam.
Well in short the decline of the Ottoman empire left a huge power vacuum. A Serbian backed assassin killed ArchDuke Ferdinand of Austria/Hungary and his wife. Germany backed them thinking Great Britain would stay out of it. France, Russia(they entered for another reason), Belgium backed the Serbs and Great Britain joined along to Germany's shock. No one wants to back down as this was really a big territorial dispute to see who will be the next bully on the block and millions die.
US joins because they intercept a letter to Mexico from Germany that if they join and fight the US they get cash and parting gifts of Texas and New Mexico. Plus the US wasn't too keen on German subs sinking US passenger ships. In a stalemated war of attrition the US sends 1 million men in summer of 1918 and much needed supplies. 500,000 see action by the end of the war that November. Our entry provides a huge moral boost to the allies, the Germans now see a no win scenario. The basics of WW1
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It tickles me too see people who seethe in anger over every tax dollar suddenly express a willingness to pay down their lives. Either their lives are worth less to them than cold hard cash or they are full of it.
As it turns out the war was wrong. Some leaders may have had earnest interpretations of a just threat but history demonstrated them to be wrong.
And every person who fought after October of 68 did so as a waste. The peace conditions posted then were never trumped through the cessation of the war. Those who fought were unfairly used as pawns in the war crimes and war profiteering of Nixon and Kissinger. It is a horrible shame for which I don't begrudge anyone who was toyed with.
However, I can't see how anyone would look back with anything but regret. Looking back at service in blind aquiesence to poor leadership in celebration is a sickness of an unthinking mob mentality.
As it turns out the war was wrong. Some leaders may have had earnest interpretations of a just threat but history demonstrated them to be wrong.
And every person who fought after October of 68 did so as a waste. The peace conditions posted then were never trumped through the cessation of the war. Those who fought were unfairly used as pawns in the war crimes and war profiteering of Nixon and Kissinger. It is a horrible shame for which I don't begrudge anyone who was toyed with.
However, I can't see how anyone would look back with anything but regret. Looking back at service in blind aquiesence to poor leadership in celebration is a sickness of an unthinking mob mentality.
Surely not. Indeed, Ali gave back much of his fame and fortune so that he could make his point - and make it, he did. Turns out, though, he was on the right side of history. This is a conservative talking. Sic your dogs and fire hoses on me because I want to get an ice cream cone...I'm not going to Nam. And I'd do much worse than that, too.
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