Agree and no.Originally posted by derleider:
Painting Rutgers as anything but almost ridiculously tolerant of gay on both an institutional and an individual level is one of the greatest smears against the university.
Im not as up onthe story as others - but has their even been any proof that the two kids who broadcast the video werent just being general purpose jerks - would they have not done it if it were Clementi and a woman?
Without a doubt. Rutgers has been ahead of the curve on this issue for a long time. That story was incredibly unfair.Originally posted by srru86:
I think much of this programming, and even campus climate, predates Clementi, or his harasser, ever getting to campus.
Despite the whirlwind of world wide publicity that lead to Rutgers being a example of intolerance in the public imagination it was I believe rather forward leaning compared to many other places in accommodating LGBT before this tragic case.
The idea that this victim, or perpetrator, epitomized Rutgers after they had both been on campus for three weeks was bogus sensationalism. Much easier to pick on Rutgers than ask tough questions about how these families raised their kids and what their home towns and schools were like.
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
yep, and Rutgers has to remember that. Otherwise we'll have more disasters like the Rice affair. Everyone should ask himself, "how might this look if it gets out to the press?"Originally posted by derleider:
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
Same goes with lots of other recent Rutgers issues - the simple story is easier to sell.
Attacking the press is just so terrible an idea that I can't believe JH did it. The press doesn't like being attacked, and it has barrels of ink to squirt at any one who does so. What did she think -- that no one in a journalism class would leak the story? That's inconceivable. She must always talk to a group as though her conversation is going to be reprinted in a newspaper. What a bad mistake to make.Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
What irks me is that when PSU covers up Sandusky or when UNC has professors giving athletes credit for not going to class, no one says anything...but Hermann says the SL should shut down, and she's worse than Aaron Hernandez...
I just wish more within our community would acknowledge the agenda and the University would take it more head on. Laughing off the recording of JH was a start, but there did seem to be a "miscommunication" of some kind with commencement.
Here's what fries me about this whole story - they, the loveable media, portray the roommate incident as what led Clementi to commit suicide. They completely refuse to report that he had come out to his parents right before heading to school, and that his mother rejected him for it. Now let's take a stab in the dark here and guess which incident was more traumatic.........hmmmmmmmm........Originally posted by derleider:
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
Originally posted by DJ Spanky:
Here's what fries me about this whole story - they, the loveable media, portray the roommate incident as what led Clementi to commit suicide. They completely refuse to report that he had come out to his parents right before heading to school, and that his mother rejected him for it. Now let's take a stab in the dark here and guess which incident was more traumatic.........hmmmmmmmm........You are usually a very smart guy, but I have to disagree. The guy commits suicide right after he's outed to the whole world, and you think the suicide can be blamed on his mom's rejection, which happened well before? I can't believe you're serious.Originally posted by derleider:
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
Right. Honestly Marc, I'm shocked to see you write that. You know far better than most how many voices there are within just one unit of the University. If the thought is that the University administration on the whole should be better at representing its own 'official voice', then I have no problem with that idea. But there are plenty of faculty, students, and others who will always disagree with what that voice is saying, and one of the intricacies that makes universities unique is that they have those open (often nasty) discussions even when it hurts the overall message that is ultimately portrayed.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
MKollar, what you propose is unrealistic. No matter who much an institution stresses to its employees that "you should refer all inquiries to the proper individuals," leaks happen anyway. Some employees may have their own agendas. Some may disagree with the "official version." Universities have the special problem that tenured and tenure-track professors can say what they like and can't be punished for it. Nor can students be punished. Rutgers does need to control the message better, but there's a limit to what the university can do. It helps when the university makes sound decisions that can attract support among the rank and file. Rutgers, though, doesn't seem so good at this.
Let me intersperse replies in parentheses. (sorry for not being smart enough to bold-face NIRh"s mind)Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
mkollar
Without question, freedom of speech and the right to speak openly and frankly regarding opinions are absolutely sacrosanct. Faculty and students speaking or writing about research or writing content for articles on any topic related to their area of study is certainly acceptable. Likewise, if they have an opposing viewpoint to University policy or wish to express dissatisfaction with a decision made by the University administration, they are certainly welcome to state what they want. But, it needs to be made clear they are speaking exclusively for themselves and not for the University in any capacity.Originally posted by jcg878:
Right. Honestly Marc, I'm shocked to see you write that. You know far better than most how many voices there are within just one unit of the University. If the thought is that the University administration on the whole should be better at representing its own 'official voice', then I have no problem with that idea. But there are plenty of faculty, students, and others who will always disagree with what that voice is saying, and one of the intricacies that makes universities unique is that they have those open (often nasty) discussions even when it hurts the overall message that is ultimately portrayed.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
MKollar, what you propose is unrealistic. No matter who much an institution stresses to its employees that "you should refer all inquiries to the proper individuals," leaks happen anyway. Some employees may have their own agendas. Some may disagree with the "official version." Universities have the special problem that tenured and tenure-track professors can say what they like and can't be punished for it. Nor can students be punished. Rutgers does need to control the message better, but there's a limit to what the university can do. It helps when the university makes sound decisions that can attract support among the rank and file. Rutgers, though, doesn't seem so good at this.
Either could have been - or more likely - a combo. He had been rejected by is parents, then he goes to college and figures he can get a fresh start on his own terms, and gets outed there too.Originally posted by DJ Spanky:
Here's what fries me about this whole story - they, the loveable media, portray the roommate incident as what led Clementi to commit suicide. They completely refuse to report that he had come out to his parents right before heading to school, and that his mother rejected him for it. Now let's take a stab in the dark here and guess which incident was more traumatic.........hmmmmmmmm........Originally posted by derleider:
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
She's in a class with journalism students -- people who are interested in making contacts in the profession. She has to be careful. She doesn't need to spill her innermost thoughts.Originally posted by derleider:
Either could have been - or more likely - a combo. He had been rejected by is parents, then he goes to college and figures he can get a fresh start on his own terms, and gets outed there too.Originally posted by DJ Spanky:
Here's what fries me about this whole story - they, the loveable media, portray the roommate incident as what led Clementi to commit suicide. They completely refuse to report that he had come out to his parents right before heading to school, and that his mother rejected him for it. Now let's take a stab in the dark here and guess which incident was more traumatic.........hmmmmmmmm........Originally posted by derleider:
Thats certainly it - the problem is the press loves the simple, sensational story - Rutgers is a TURRIBLE place for gays - the roomate practically pushed the kid off the bridge- instead of the complex and mundane explanations that are the real world.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Well, the problem is that Rutgers just plain had bad luck. It's not every school that had a kid commit suicide after he was outed as gay on the internet by a roommate. And so people draw an inference from that about Rutgers, and it's hard for Rutgers to alter the image. . For better or worse, that's life. We just were unlucky. Luck does not seem to be one of this institution's friends. Perhaps we should remember the words of the great baseball man, Branch Rickey: "luck in the residue of design."
Camden - yes that was the issue with Rice. Ultimately the initial punishment likely did fit the crime - he was abusive, but if there were no video it would have been appropriately harsh. But there was a video and RU didnt seem to even consider the inevitable uproar. Poor understanding of the media by someone who was supposedly (but never struck me as) media savvy.
As for Hermann - meh - she was in a class and was being candid. If she cant be candid than why have her speak.
NIRH - PSU got huge coverage. People said alot about it for weeks and months. The issue isnt that no one said anything, its that the long term impact on the program was basically a net positive - they got a rallying around the flag affect AND an excuse for a couple of down years after Paterno was gone.
UNC is a different story - its news, but I really cant believe its not getting more press. I guess academics is ust boring scandals or plaudits.
You're certainly right that only the University can speak for the University. But that's not the problem. The problem is that others within the University will give their own account of what Rutgers is doing, and why it is doing it. There's no way to prevent that. And the media person is free to imply that their accounts are more correct than the "official version." After all, do you believe Obama necessarily when he says that we are doing X for reason Y. Others are free to say, "no really Obama is doing A for reason B." That's just part of the journalistic process.Originally posted by mkollar:
Without question, freedom of speech and the right to speak openly and frankly regarding opinions are absolutely sacrosanct. Faculty and students speaking or writing about research or writing content for articles on any topic related to their area of study is certainly acceptable. Likewise, if they have an opposing viewpoint to University policy or wish to express dissatisfaction with a decision made by the University administration, they are certainly welcome to state what they want. But, it needs to be made clear they are speaking exclusively for themselves and not for the University in any capacity.Originally posted by jcg878:
Right. Honestly Marc, I'm shocked to see you write that. You know far better than most how many voices there are within just one unit of the University. If the thought is that the University administration on the whole should be better at representing its own 'official voice', then I have no problem with that idea. But there are plenty of faculty, students, and others who will always disagree with what that voice is saying, and one of the intricacies that makes universities unique is that they have those open (often nasty) discussions even when it hurts the overall message that is ultimately portrayed.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
MKollar, what you propose is unrealistic. No matter who much an institution stresses to its employees that "you should refer all inquiries to the proper individuals," leaks happen anyway. Some employees may have their own agendas. Some may disagree with the "official version." Universities have the special problem that tenured and tenure-track professors can say what they like and can't be punished for it. Nor can students be punished. Rutgers does need to control the message better, but there's a limit to what the university can do. It helps when the university makes sound decisions that can attract support among the rank and file. Rutgers, though, doesn't seem so good at this.
My issue is with those in administration and the differentiation that needs to be made between when a departmental administrator (dean, faculty chair, etc.) who is also a faculty member is attempting to speak for the University or claim to "speak for the faculty" under that title. Likewise, all - and by all I refer to everyone from a Custodial Agent III to the president - need to clearly understand they do not have any authority to speak on any topic unless specifically conveyed through prior written authorization.
The reality is that the AAUP/AFT unions make it adamantly clear that only the spokesperson for the union speaks for the union. Moreover, only those faculty or staff who are made available to the press are done so with very specific scripted comments in relation to a topic. That same approach needs to be taken by the University.
Do not want to speak for NIRH (and not sure if this is what you were asking) but I do know thru a job related connection to the show that nobody from "The Jersey Shore" does anything for free.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Let me just give one sentence of traditional PR advice: never argue with people who buy ink by the barrel. That's particularly true when they control how your story will be channeled to the public. We don't have to give into them; ignoring them at times is the best alternative, just as you say. If I were Barchi, I'd be getting the sense (finally!) that *I* have to be the spokesman for the university.
BTW, do you have data to support what you say about Snooki and other schools?
In the "real world" there are most certainly ways to prevent it or at least control the message by letting the person know the consequences of their actions.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
You're certainly right that only the University can speak for the University. But that's not the problem. The problem is that others within the University will give their own account of what Rutgers is doing, and why it is doing it. There's no way to prevent that. And the media person is free to imply that their accounts are more correct than the "official version." After all, do you believe Obama necessarily when he says that we are doing X for reason Y. Others are free to say, "no really Obama is doing A for reason B." That's just part of the journalistic process.Originally posted by mkollar:
Without question, freedom of speech and the right to speak openly and frankly regarding opinions are absolutely sacrosanct. Faculty and students speaking or writing about research or writing content for articles on any topic related to their area of study is certainly acceptable. Likewise, if they have an opposing viewpoint to University policy or wish to express dissatisfaction with a decision made by the University administration, they are certainly welcome to state what they want. But, it needs to be made clear they are speaking exclusively for themselves and not for the University in any capacity.Originally posted by jcg878:
Right. Honestly Marc, I'm shocked to see you write that. You know far better than most how many voices there are within just one unit of the University. If the thought is that the University administration on the whole should be better at representing its own 'official voice', then I have no problem with that idea. But there are plenty of faculty, students, and others who will always disagree with what that voice is saying, and one of the intricacies that makes universities unique is that they have those open (often nasty) discussions even when it hurts the overall message that is ultimately portrayed.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
MKollar, what you propose is unrealistic. No matter who much an institution stresses to its employees that "you should refer all inquiries to the proper individuals," leaks happen anyway. Some employees may have their own agendas. Some may disagree with the "official version." Universities have the special problem that tenured and tenure-track professors can say what they like and can't be punished for it. Nor can students be punished. Rutgers does need to control the message better, but there's a limit to what the university can do. It helps when the university makes sound decisions that can attract support among the rank and file. Rutgers, though, doesn't seem so good at this.
My issue is with those in administration and the differentiation that needs to be made between when a departmental administrator (dean, faculty chair, etc.) who is also a faculty member is attempting to speak for the University or claim to "speak for the faculty" under that title. Likewise, all - and by all I refer to everyone from a Custodial Agent III to the president - need to clearly understand they do not have any authority to speak on any topic unless specifically conveyed through prior written authorization.
The reality is that the AAUP/AFT unions make it adamantly clear that only the spokesperson for the union speaks for the union. Moreover, only those faculty or staff who are made available to the press are done so with very specific scripted comments in relation to a topic. That same approach needs to be taken by the University.
Originally posted by e5fdny:
In the "real world" there are most certainly ways to prevent it or at least control the message by letting the person know the consequences of their actions.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
You're certainly right that only the University can speak for the University. But that's not the problem. The problem is that others within the University will give their own account of what Rutgers is doing, and why it is doing it. There's no way to prevent that. And the media person is free to imply that their accounts are more correct than the "official version." After all, do you believe Obama necessarily when he says that we are doing X for reason Y. Others are free to say, "no really Obama is doing A for reason B." That's just part of the journalistic process.Originally posted by mkollar:
Without question, freedom of speech and the right to speak openly and frankly regarding opinions are absolutely sacrosanct. Faculty and students speaking or writing about research or writing content for articles on any topic related to their area of study is certainly acceptable. Likewise, if they have an opposing viewpoint to University policy or wish to express dissatisfaction with a decision made by the University administration, they are certainly welcome to state what they want. But, it needs to be made clear they are speaking exclusively for themselves and not for the University in any capacity.Originally posted by jcg878:
Right. Honestly Marc, I'm shocked to see you write that. You know far better than most how many voices there are within just one unit of the University. If the thought is that the University administration on the whole should be better at representing its own 'official voice', then I have no problem with that idea. But there are plenty of faculty, students, and others who will always disagree with what that voice is saying, and one of the intricacies that makes universities unique is that they have those open (often nasty) discussions even when it hurts the overall message that is ultimately portrayed.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
MKollar, what you propose is unrealistic. No matter who much an institution stresses to its employees that "you should refer all inquiries to the proper individuals," leaks happen anyway. Some employees may have their own agendas. Some may disagree with the "official version." Universities have the special problem that tenured and tenure-track professors can say what they like and can't be punished for it. Nor can students be punished. Rutgers does need to control the message better, but there's a limit to what the university can do. It helps when the university makes sound decisions that can attract support among the rank and file. Rutgers, though, doesn't seem so good at this.
My issue is with those in administration and the differentiation that needs to be made between when a departmental administrator (dean, faculty chair, etc.) who is also a faculty member is attempting to speak for the University or claim to "speak for the faculty" under that title. Likewise, all - and by all I refer to everyone from a Custodial Agent III to the president - need to clearly understand they do not have any authority to speak on any topic unless specifically conveyed through prior written authorization.
The reality is that the AAUP/AFT unions make it adamantly clear that only the spokesperson for the union speaks for the union. Moreover, only those faculty or staff who are made available to the press are done so with very specific scripted comments in relation to a topic. That same approach needs to be taken by the University.
That's not true. Leaks and non-conforming statements happen in *every* organization, be it a university, a governmental agency or a corporation. Finding out who leaked is terribly difficult. Indeed, every presidential administration works on ending or punishing leaks, and it never works. There is always going to be some anonymous source that can't be easily tracked down. It is worse in a university, where norms of academic freedom prevail, but the problem happens everywhere.
I once worked at a firm that had a small committee that was privy to proprietary trade secret information. The team was referred to as the "Death Pool" because it was know if the information leaked everyone on the team would be fired.Originally posted by e5fdny:
In the "real world" there are most certainly ways to prevent it or at least control the message by letting the person know the consequences of their actions.
In most organizations, this is impracticable because of the need to share information with a relatively large number of people, and you can't fire them all if one leaks. And my guess would be that there was lots of other information management wouldn't want shared other than proprietary trade secret information.Originally posted by srru86:
I once worked at a firm that had a small committee that was privy to proprietary trade secret information. The team was referred to as the "Death Pool" because it was know if the information leaked everyone on the team would be fired.Originally posted by e5fdny:
In the "real world" there are most certainly ways to prevent it or at least control the message by letting the person know the consequences of their actions.
When you're already in trouble with person A, the last thing you ought to do is provoke them.Originally posted by derleider:
Let me add this about Hermann - the media (or rather elements within it) was after her long before her classroom talk. In a very real way, she has and had nothing to lose - the people in the media who dont like her would find something else to hang her on - but in reality none of it matters for her - she will be kept or fired based on ability to raise money for much needed improvements and even more so on the on field performance of Flood, Jordan, and possibly their predecessors if they get canned in the next year or two.
Basically she didnt pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel - she merely continued one that was ongoing.
Or she can do whatever she is gonna do and ignore them, which is what she seems to be doing now.Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
When you're already in trouble with person A, the last thing you ought to do is provoke them.Originally posted by derleider:
Let me add this about Hermann - the media (or rather elements within it) was after her long before her classroom talk. In a very real way, she has and had nothing to lose - the people in the media who dont like her would find something else to hang her on - but in reality none of it matters for her - she will be kept or fired based on ability to raise money for much needed improvements and even more so on the on field performance of Flood, Jordan, and possibly their predecessors if they get canned in the next year or two.
Basically she didnt pick a fight with people who buy ink by the barrel - she merely continued one that was ongoing.