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McConnell fouled on last shot

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BillyC80

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Oct 23, 2006
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Just watched the replay and after Geo misses his last 3 pointer, McConnell grabs the board and makes a move to the hole, it appears that Stevens completely hacked him, bringing his right arm down across Caleb’s shoulders and face.

I wonder if anyone on here had a good angle on that, maybe from behind the RU bench?

At one point I freeze-framed it on my tv and it looks like Stevens is completely hanging on top of Caleb with his arm moving downward for an obvious foul, which would explain why CMac missed so badly.

Not a fan of letting refs decide the outcome, but with them swallowing the whistle there, aren’t they in fact deciding anyway? From the angle I saw, looked like Caleb should’ve gone to the line for a chance to win it for us.
 
BillyC80 said:
Just watched the replay and after Geo misses his last 3 pointer, McConnell grabs the board and makes a move to the hole, it appears that Stevens completely hacked him, bringing his right arm down across Caleb’s shoulders and face.

I wonder if anyone on here had a good angle on that, maybe from behind the RU bench?

At one point I freeze-framed it on my tv and it looks like Stevens is completely hanging on top of Caleb with his arm moving downward for an obvious foul, which would explain why CMac missed so badly.

Not a fan of letting refs decide the outcome, but with them swallowing the whistle there, aren’t they in fact deciding anyway? From the angle I saw, looked like Caleb should’ve gone to the line for a chance to win it for us.
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There was a lot in that game that wasn't whistled. As I said in another thread, Myles was in the paint for the last 12 seconds of the game with no whistle, too - even if he'd put the ball in the hoop on that last shot, it shouldn't have counted. Should have been a 3-second turnover before McConnell even made his final attempt.
 
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RUChoppin said:
There was a lot in that game that wasn't whistled. As I said in another thread, Myles was in the paint for the last 12 seconds of the game with no whistle, too - even if he'd put the ball in the hoop on that last shot, it shouldn't have counted. Should have been a 3-second turnover before McConnell even made his final attempt.
Click to expand...
It’s not 3 seconds if there are shots going up
 
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He was fouled. He’s not bricking a shot from that range that badly on his own.
 
there was no foul, stop

the Big 10 is not the Big East, I think are fans are not aware of that. Alot of contact is let go

yesterday there was a play in the first half where Caleb was body brushed and no foul call and on the ensuing play Caleb body brushed the dribbler with no foul called.

late in the game they certainly were not going to call any touch fouls, it would have to be a hard contact foul which clearly did not happen in the last few seconds
 
KnightTerrors said:
Shot was blocked.
Click to expand...
I have a screenshot of it. He was hacked. Stevens basically gets all arm no ball.

With that said refs let alot go last nighg. Stevens tossed eugene and dunked it and immediately montez just threw a guy off him for an and 1
 
Ok, just watched the last sequence again. Myles was in the paint the last 11.5 seconds. But Geo’s shot went up at 8.5 and there was a long rebound that was in the air for 2 seconds, then grabbed by McConnell at 5.5 and then McConnell shot it at 3.5 and Myles got the rebound/putback which was blocked.

I don’t think any of that would have warranted a 3-second violation with the ball flying around on shots and rebounds.

On the other hand, the foul on McConnell appeared to be blatant and obvious and should have been called, imo.

That said, the real mistake was Geo not aggressively taking the ball into the lane and to the rim to at least draw a foul. Instead he settled for a three, which, especially on this night for him, was not a good choice.
 
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bac2therac said:
there was no foul, stop

the Big 10 is not the Big East, I think are fans are not aware of that. Alot of contact is let go

yesterday there was a play in the first half where Caleb was body brushed and no foul call and on the ensuing play Caleb body brushed the dribbler with no foul called.

late in the game they certainly were not going to call any touch fouls, it would have to be a hard contact foul which clearly did not happen in the last few seconds
Click to expand...
Sorry Bac, there was. You’re arguing brush fouls versus an obvious hack. Look, I’m satisfied we had our chances and by no means am I blaming the refs, I was just pointing out something I hadn’t noticed before.
 
Kyk ,
Do you have a screenshot ? Would love to send to my brothers who both went to penn st
 
I have a screenshot that shows the ball out of Caleb’s hand and no contact but I’m too big of a moron to figure out how to post it. So bottom line is you win!

Definitely contact after the ball leaves his hand but that shot missed because the guy closer to the basket blocks it.
 
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Happens all the time in b-ball. A guy releases the shot and then get bumped, hacked or hammered after the release. When all the refs are focused on the shooter that foul is usually called.

I look at it this way, what would the players say? Our guys are good sports and not excuse-makers. Caleb would likely say, “Yeah, I got fouled, but it’s part of the game, so no excuses. They beat us fair and square.” And as a fan I’m satisfied with that.

Doesn’t change the fact that Caleb got fouled, nor does it preclude anyone on this board from pointing it out. It’s over and done so like the players do, we’re better off just accepting it and moving on. Sorry I even brought it up.
 
BillyC80 said:
Happens all the time in b-ball. A guy releases the shot and then get bumped, hacked or hammered after the release. When all the refs are focused on the shooter that foul is usually called.

I look at it this way, what would the players say? Our guys are good sports and not excuse-makers. Caleb would likely say, “Yeah, I got fouled, but it’s part of the game, so no excuses. They beat us fair and square.” And as a fan I’m satisfied with that.

Doesn’t change the fact that Caleb got fouled, nor does it preclude anyone on this board from pointing it out. It’s over and done so like the players do, we’re better off just accepting it and moving on. Sorry I even brought it up.
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I hear ya and totally see your point. But think about the flip side. If we were defending in that situation and that gets called on us...would we not all be freaking out?

It’s tough. I wish the ref saw what you did. I’m still sick from last night!
 
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bethlehemfan said:
It’s not 3 seconds if there are shots going up
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BillyC80 said:
Ok, just watched the last sequence again. Myles was in the paint the last 11.5 seconds. But Geo’s shot went up at 8.5 and there was a long rebound that was in the air for 2 seconds, then grabbed by McConnell at 5.5 and then McConnell shot it at 3.5 and Myles got the rebound/putback which was blocked.

I don’t think any of that would have warranted a 3-second violation with the ball flying around on shots and rebounds.
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Not sure where in the rules that "not 3 seconds if there are shots going up" idea comes from.

Section 9. Three Seconds In The Lane
Art. 1. The three-second lane is the area in the front court that is bounded by the end line, the free-throw lane lines and the free-throw line, and includes such lines.
Art. 2. It is a violation for a player to have any part of his body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his frontcourt.
a. The three-second violation rule is not in effect when a team is in control of the ball for a throw-in.
Art. 3. The three-second count is suspended when a player who, having been in the three-second lane for less than three seconds, dribbles or moves in immediately to try for field goal. The player shall not pass the ball instead of trying for goal. In this case, it is a violation.

Nothing about people shooting the ball other than the person who is in the lane. Not saying it's always (or even usually) called, but Johnson was in the lane for ~10 seconds before he had it in his hands to shoot it - and once he entered the lane at >11 seconds, he had no intention of leaving it. Pretty clear cut violation, imo. Once he passed the ball out, he needed to leave the lane and then reestablish himself.
 
This was a very loosely called game with regard to contact - the level of contact on McConnell's last shot went uncalled at least 5-10 other times during the game, too. While it is a foul "in a vacuum", or in a more tightly called game, the no call fell pretty much in line with the way the rest of the game was called.
 
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Choppin, very surprised those rules don’t mention shots going up and guys scrambling for rebounds as a nullifier if the 3-second call.

We’ve seen situations where a team gets 3 or 4 offensive rebounds in a row, where shots and misses are going up in rapid succession but in total continues for 10 seconds or so. I’ve never seen a 3-second call in that situation, but I could be wrong.

Thanks for posting the rules.
 
BIG officiating is awful, every game. Don’t even bother trying to figure what is a foul and what isn’t. It’s random. Watkins can hammer Harper and it’s considered a clean “block” yet Myles breathes on Watkins on the other end and it’s a foul. The fact that Bo took 5 mins to confirm the hook and hold against EO should tell you everything you need to know. That was probably the most textbook obvious example of a hook and hold you’ll ever see. even the guys calling the game were joking this would be used in future officiating tapes. Even Chambers jokes in the post game how he was glad they were unwilling to call a foul during the last seconds.
 
The problem with 3 refs is that they have a hard time deciding how the want to call the game . You usually get one ref who just wants to be the show and call a bunch of stuff while the other two want to let them play. Very hard for three refs to get on the same page as they all have different views on how to call a game which leads to a lot of inconsistent calls
 
So
KnightTerrors said:
I have a screenshot that shows the ball out of Caleb’s hand and no contact but I’m too big of a moron to figure out how to post it. So bottom line is you win!

Definitely contact after the ball leaves his hand but that shot missed because the guy closer to the basket blocks it.
Click to expand...
post it.
 
RUChoppin said:
Not sure where in the rules that "not 3 seconds if there are shots going up" idea comes from.

Section 9. Three Seconds In The Lane
Art. 1. The three-second lane is the area in the front court that is bounded by the end line, the free-throw lane lines and the free-throw line, and includes such lines.
Art. 2. It is a violation for a player to have any part of his body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his frontcourt.
a. The three-second violation rule is not in effect when a team is in control of the ball for a throw-in.
Art. 3. The three-second count is suspended when a player who, having been in the three-second lane for less than three seconds, dribbles or moves in immediately to try for field goal. The player shall not pass the ball instead of trying for goal. In this case, it is a violation.

Nothing about people shooting the ball other than the person who is in the lane. Not saying it's always (or even usually) called, but Johnson was in the lane for ~10 seconds before he had it in his hands to shoot it - and once he entered the lane at >11 seconds, he had no intention of leaving it. Pretty clear cut violation, imo. Once he passed the ball out, he needed to leave the lane and then reestablish himself.
Click to expand...

The bold part basically implies that the 3-second clock resets after a shot, since the ball is no longer in the control of that player's team.
 
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RUChoppin said:
Not sure where in the rules that "not 3 seconds if there are shots going up" idea comes from.

Section 9. Three Seconds In The Lane
Art. 1. The three-second lane is the area in the front court that is bounded by the end line, the free-throw lane lines and the free-throw line, and includes such lines.
Art. 2. It is a violation for a player to have any part of his body remain in the three-second lane for more than three consecutive seconds while the ball is in control of that player’s team in his frontcourt.
a. The three-second violation rule is not in effect when a team is in control of the ball for a throw-in.
Art. 3. The three-second count is suspended when a player who, having been in the three-second lane for less than three seconds, dribbles or moves in immediately to try for field goal. The player shall not pass the ball instead of trying for goal. In this case, it is a violation.

Nothing about people shooting the ball other than the person who is in the lane. Not saying it's always (or even usually) called, but Johnson was in the lane for ~10 seconds before he had it in his hands to shoot it - and once he entered the lane at >11 seconds, he had no intention of leaving it. Pretty clear cut violation, imo. Once he passed the ball out, he needed to leave the lane and then reestablish himself.
Click to expand...

Pretty straightforward:
When the ball is in the air, the team is not in control of the ball and the three second count would restart when the ball is back in the team's possession
 
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this is my opinion too, and I complain about refs a lot. I have to add there was a walk after Stevens got a rebound, he just walked with it and even announcer said he walked but didn't replay it. RU got away with couple calls.... overall well officiated even with Greene.


1984 said:
I actually really liked the way that game was called last night. Only really bad call I saw was the out of bounds given to PSU oh and that screen on Baker.

Great to see the let them play mode.
Click to expand...
 
Bottom line the referees really didn't decide the outcome of the game.In 40 minutes there will be questionable plays/calls pro and con.What mattered was the abysmal first half,the non scoring by key players and the inability to finish around the basket.
 
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Loyal_2RU said:
Pretty straightforward:
When the ball is in the air, the team is not in control of the ball and the three second count would restart when the ball is back in the team's possession
Click to expand...

Interesting - I wasn't aware of the rule distinction between "control" and "possession".

Section 9. Control—Player, Team
Art. 1. A player shall be in control when:
a. Holding a live ball; or
b. Dribbling a live ball while inbounds.
Art. 2. A team shall be in control when:
a. A player of the team is in control;
b. A live ball is being passed between teammates including when the pass is muffed by the receiving teammate;
c. A player of that team has disposal of the ball for a throw-in; or
d. During an interrupted dribble. (See Rule 4-15.a.3 and Rule 4-24.)
Art. 3. Team control shall continue until the ball is in flight during a try for goal, an opponent secures control or the ball becomes dead. (See Rule 4-24.)

So, this was not as egregious as it at first appeared. He first stepped into the paint at 12.2 seconds, and Geo's shot went up at 8.5 seconds... which is a hair-splitting difference past 3 seconds that would never be called live at game speed.
 
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Forget the screenshots since no one will put them up. Heres the video and the last play started at the 4:40 mark

 
Tico, great highlight video, thanks for posting it. Man, at 66-60 I thought we were done for. Then Caleb nails a huge 3 and Myles with the ridiculous tap in. That was nuts. Then to have multiple shots at the win, after being down 20, was unbelievable.
 
the 3 that PSU made on that rebound and ball winds up in the corner for the open 3 was CRITICAL in this game..yes Caleb got it back next possession, but RU would have the extra time to complete this comeback, in a game like this each possession takes on importance and given us a greater margin of error. If this game went on another minute, Rutgers would have won it
 
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Yeah, that was a lucky bounce for PSU and to their credit they sunk a three ball. Thought for sure we were doomed. Then two freshmen step up in a huge spot. Caleb is smooth and he has ice in his veins. I have no doubt if a foul is called on his last shot he would have calmly gone to the line and made both for the win.
 
bac2therac said:
the 3 that PSU made on that rebound and ball winds up in the corner for the open 3 was CRITICAL in this game..yes Caleb got it back next possession, but RU would have the extra time to complete this comeback, in a game like this each possession takes on importance and given us a greater margin of error. If this game went on another minute, Rutgers would have won it
Click to expand...

As soon as it fell, I said "that same goddamn corner!" to my wife. Glad McConnell got it right back, but agree that it lost precious time.
 
Scarlet83 said:
Choppin, a shot resets the 3 seconds for offensive players in the lane. This is a basic rule of basketball at all levels for a really long time.
Click to expand...

It's so rarely called, I really had no idea. Just saw on the replay that Johnson was standing under the basket for 12+ consecutive seconds. The only stretch that was over 3 seconds was from the time he entered until Baker's shot, but it was only about 4 seconds and not something that ever would be called in that moment.
 
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