More of a reason for this season

[darkcheck]

Got to analyzing and I want all your opinions on these two choices. Granted there are many other choices but I used to think it was all A, but the more I think about it B plays a big part. What is more of a reason for this massively disappointing season:

A) the lack of talent brought in
Or
B) the lack of accountability, discipline and structure/schemes in the environment around the players

I used to think almost 100% A. But with time to think I’m more of a 60/40, 55/45 A.

What do you all think analytically? Thanks.

 

[NickRU714]

It's clearly B.

If it's 100% just the players, then what players are we supposed to bring in that would thrive in our offense of standing around while 1 guy dribbles the ball?

Who are all these talented players that are going thrive standing in the corner?

 

[Shelby65]

100% B.

Players' coach to the extreme. Always has been. Streetball offense allowing players to hunt shots rather than reel in their leashes. No guardrails. Only players with some semblance of restraint on offense are Acuff, Martini and Hayes, probably only because they are too slow to chuck.

This freestyle play might have been successful with better defenders like in the past, but this year there is no D because all this roster cares about is chucking. Shelby feels sorry for Martini on this team, coming from a place where the offense isn't a cesspool of selfish players who don't care enough about winning to play smarter, Bailey and Harper included.

 

[RAC93]

Got to analyzing and I want all your opinions on these two choices. Granted there are many other choices but I used to think it was all A, but the more I think about it B plays a big part. What is more of a reason for this massively disappointing season:

A) the lack of talent brought in
Or
B) the lack of accountability, discipline and structure/schemes in the environment around the players

I used to think almost 100% A. But with time to think I’m more of a 60/40, 55/45 A.

What do you all think analytically? Thanks.

After last night’s debacle and putting all the pieces of the puzzle together thru 25 games, it is definitely B. I would say about 70/30 B. I think a lot of better coaches would have done better with this roster with their accountability, discipline and schemes. We still grabbed lame talent in the portal, so there is that, and that would not change, but still say it’s 70/30 B.

 

[bac2therac]

B not sure how accountable could Pike make 2 nba players

 

[bethlehemfan]

They are all a factor but you’re missing inexperience and lack of continuity and leadership all of which are big factors in games that come down to one or two possessions imo.

 

[RUsojo]

It’s A.

B only really materialized because the season was lost so early. Ace and Dylan took a risk on RU and they got let down by the program not providing and adequate supporting cast. Once that was clear (season over, nothing to play for), I certainly agree motivation was not there and Ace and Dylan stopped putting their all into this.

Pike cannot hold them accountable because they are bigger and of more importance in the basketball world than Pike is. So while it may be happening (accountability/structureless/etc.) it’s the outcome, not the cause.

 

[RU MAN]

Got to analyzing and I want all your opinions on these two choices. Granted there are many other choices but I used to think it was all A, but the more I think about it B plays a big part. What is more of a reason for this massively disappointing season:

A) the lack of talent brought in
Or
B) the lack of accountability, discipline and structure/schemes in the environment around the players

I used to think almost 100% A. But with time to think I’m more of a 60/40, 55/45 A.

What do you all think analytically? Thanks.

Darkcheck, for me it's 55/45. First of all, Pikiell failed to bring in B1G type players that are tough as nails and willing to defend as well as score. With that stated, however, it's Pikiell and his coaching staff that have failed the players and us, the fans. Pikiell is absolutely clueless on how to run an offense. He relies on Brandon Knight, whose offense, IMO, is no offense at all. A few high ball screens and not real cutting and guys just standing on the perimeter is NOT an offense.

One would think after 32 years of coaching, Pikiell would have learned something, anything about how to run an offense. As a player, coach, and student of the game, I've seen better offenses run at the high school level. What we have here is an abomination.

I realize Pikiell will definitely be around next year and possibly the year after. But his failure this season, and I mean FAILURE, has crushed my spirit.

 

[RutgersChow]

Easy choice - B

 

[Shelby65]

B not sure how accountable could Pike make 2 nba players

Especially since the freedom to play AAU streetball to showcase their skills is what attracted them in the first place. That’s the sales pitch. And if two players play without any limitations, the others can’t either. It’s a Chinese fire drill with a basketball.

 

[Shelby65]

Darkcheck, for me it's 55/45. First of all, Pikiell failed to bring in B1G type players that are tough as nails and willing to defend as well as score. With that stated, however, it's Pikiell and his coaching staff that have failed the players and us, the fans. Pikiell is absolutely clueless on how to run an offense. He relies on Brandon Knight, whose offense, IMO, is no offense at all. A few high ball screens and not real cutting and guys just standing on the perimeter is NOT an offense.

One would think after 32 years of coaching, Pikiell would have learned something, anything about how to run an offense. As a player, coach, and student of the game, I've seen better offenses run at the high school level. What we have here is an abomination.

I realize Pikiell will definitely be around next year and possibly the year after. But his failure this season, and I mean FAILURE, has crushed my spirit.

Oh, he sure as hell knows offense. It’s been his life. You think hs hack coaches know the game better than Pike and Knight ? Absurd. Roster dictates system. Sure, even middle school teams run various sets because lack of talent forces that. He has players do what they are best at. Look at our team. Do you want Sommerville, Derkack, Grant or Davis in a 5 player motion LOL ? That would be an abomination.

 

[NickRU714]

Oh, he sure as hell knows offense. It’s been his life. You think hs hack coaches know the game better than Pike and Knight ? Absurd. Roster dictates system. Sure, even middle school teams run various sets because lack of talent forces that. He has players do what they are best at. Look at our team. Do you want Sommerville, Derkack, Grant or Davis in a 5 player motion LOL ? That would be an abomination.

But HC Pike chose the players.
The offense fits the players because HC Pike picked the players to fit the offense he wanted.

Look at this way:
Would Iowa ever recruit a 25% 3pt shooter like Derkack or JWill? Or start a 25% 3pt shooter (until recently) like Davis?

If it was the players holding back the grand plan for the offense - then the offense would look different with different players. But it’s looked the same year over year.

 

[darkcheck]

Darkcheck, for me it's 55/45. First of all, Pikiell failed to bring in B1G type players that are tough as nails and willing to defend as well as score. With that stated, however, it's Pikiell and his coaching staff that have failed the players and us, the fans. Pikiell is absolutely clueless on how to run an offense. He relies on Brandon Knight, whose offense, IMO, is no offense at all. A few high ball screens and not real cutting and guys just standing on the perimeter is NOT an offense.

One would think after 32 years of coaching, Pikiell would have learned something, anything about how to run an offense. As a player, coach, and student of the game, I've seen better offenses run at the high school level. What we have here is an abomination.

I realize Pikiell will definitely be around next year and possibly the year after. But his failure this season, and I mean FAILURE, has crushed my spirit.

55/45 A RU Man?

Your second paragraph!!!!

 

[darkcheck]

Oh, he sure as hell knows offense. It’s been his life. You think hs hack coaches know the game better than Pike and Knight ? Absurd. Roster dictates system. Sure, even middle school teams run various sets because lack of talent forces that. He has players do what they are best at. Look at our team. Do you want Sommerville, Derkack, Grant or Davis in a 5 player motion LOL ? That would be an abomination.

Shelby, so much respect for you! But I have to agree to disagree. The offense RU runs is so simplistic, easy enough to guard, and has been the same for years regardless of personnel. Having talented kids run a system isn’t always to cover kids that can’t play. Some systems require a lot of skill to even execute. A weak link would kill the system but any talent can thrive in it. Also structure and systems produce wins.

I’ve spent a half a lifetime teaching kids to not stand still for more than 2-3 Mississippi, watching RU makes me pull the little hair I have left out of my head. And while I would agree Pike and Knight know a ton about offense in their brains, maybe it’s their inability to Put it into a a grand plan, or their inability to Be versed in enough teaching methods to relay it to their players so they’ll execute the vision. It is possible he has that skill for teaching defense but not offense. Defense is built on athleticism, aggression and organized chaos. Offense is more skill and finesse. It’s a different mindset.

Also beg to differ about your HS hack comment. Most hs coaches couldn’t hold a candle to Pike or Knights minds, I’m an example of one who certainly couldn’t. However I’ve known a few who id bet are just as sharp. I’ve witnessed their knowledge and teaching styles. Some were good college players, some pros, some trained under great coaches themselves (Hurley Sr for example). One of those bright minds taught me something once. “Attitude and effort beats talent alone everytime”. While that doesn’t display their offensive knowledge it does really apply to this years RU team and some of their head scratching losses.

Anyway. I’m not looking to Argue, and I respect your thoughts, just don’t put Pike and Knight too high on a coaching pedestal. Offensively they’ve proven they don’t deserve it. And please don’t sell short all HS coaches just because they didn’t coach in a power five Conf. There’s a few very good coaches out there at the hs level.

 

[Shelby65]

But HC Pike chose the players.
The offense fits the players because HC Pike picked the players to fit the offense he wanted.

Look at this way:
Would Iowa ever recruit a 25% 3pt shooter like Derkack or JWill? Or start a 25% 3pt shooter (until recently) like Davis?

If it was the players holding back the grand plan for the offense - then the offense would look different with different players. But it’s looked the same year over year.

100%. Shelby agrees. The stem of the problem with the offense you see is the players he recruits. He knows offense and he doesn’t get outcoached game after game.

He’s limited in what he can run based on the players’ abilities. They are just plain shitty or unwilling passers. That’s why you see less motion and less of an emphasis on passing. He mostly recruits kids who can iso. Even Baker and RHJ were iso players not suited to passing. Geo was as ball dominant as DH and Ace are and also not a willing passer. How often did he run 15 seconds off the shot clock dribbling beyond the arc and then try to beat his defender with a pull up on the the elbows ? A lot.

So it’s fair to rip Pike for recruiting a certain skill set but then not logical to also slam him for running the optimal offense for those players to be successful.

We just don’t have players suited to run the kind of offense Iowa does.

 

[Shelby65]

Shelby, so much respect for you! But I have to agree to disagree. The offense RU runs is so simplistic, easy enough to guard, and has been the same for years regardless of personnel. Having talented kids run a system isn’t always to cover kids that can’t play. Some systems require a lot of skill to even execute. A weak link would kill the system but any talent can thrive in it. Also structure and systems produce wins.

I’ve spent a half a lifetime teaching kids to not stand still for more than 2-3 Mississippi, watching RU makes me pull the little hair I have left out of my head. And while I would agree Pike and Knight know a ton about offense in their brains, maybe it’s their inability to Put it into a a grand plan, or their inability to Be versed in enough teaching methods to relay it to their players so they’ll execute the vision. It is possible he has that skill for teaching defense but not offense. Defense is built on athleticism, aggression and organized chaos. Offense is more skill and finesse. It’s a different mindset.

Also beg to differ about your HS hack comment. Most hs coaches couldn’t hold a candle to Pike or Knights minds, I’m an example of one who certainly couldn’t. However I’ve known a few who id bet are just as sharp. I’ve witnessed their knowledge and teaching styles. Some were good college players, some pros, some trained under great coaches themselves (Hurley Sr for example). One of those bright minds taught me something once. “Attitude and effort beats talent alone everytime”. While that doesn’t display their offensive knowledge it does really apply to this years RU team and some of their head scratching losses.

Anyway. I’m not looking to Argue, and I respect your thoughts, just don’t put Pike and Knight too high on a coaching pedestal. Offensively they’ve proven they don’t deserve it. And please don’t sell short all HS coaches just because they didn’t coach in a power five Conf. There’s a few very good coaches out there at the hs level.

Not all hs coaches, obviously. Some are great hoops teachers. But by and large, college coaches are much more competent. It’s their profession and the cream rises to the top.

Most all hs coaches have a different day job in a classroom

 

[needmorecowbell]

After last night’s debacle and putting all the pieces of the puzzle together thru 25 games, it is definitely B. I would say about 70/30 B. I think a lot of better coaches would have done better with this roster with their accountability, discipline and schemes. We still grabbed lame talent in the portal, so there is that, and that would not change, but still say it’s 70/30 B.

basing you decision on the worst game of the year? Smart

 

[needmorecowbell]

Got to analyzing and I want all your opinions on these two choices. Granted there are many other choices but I used to think it was all A, but the more I think about it B plays a big part. What is more of a reason for this massively disappointing season:

A) the lack of talent brought in
Or
B) the lack of accountability, discipline and structure/schemes in the environment around the players

I used to think almost 100% A. But with time to think I’m more of a 60/40, 55/45 A.

What do you all think analytically? Thanks.

This year didn’t go as planned for sure. I said it early on. They would need time to gel and relying on freshmen rarely works. Well they never really gel’d (injuries, bad roster management, etc). It was a failed experiment. Pike needs to go back to what works for him. Athletic, long, defenders that can get out and run and defend. Get guys that buy into his system. He didnt do that with this roster. He tried to add individual pieces ( shooters and scorers) to Ace and Dylan but none of them really fit his system. Derkack is probably the closest fit but his shooting has made it difficult to play him. The roster was the biggest issue. Skill wasn’t the biggest issue, fit was.

 

[fluoxetine]

It’s A.

B only really materialized because the season was lost so early. Ace and Dylan took a risk on RU and they got let down by the program not providing and adequate supporting cast. Once that was clear (season over, nothing to play for), I certainly agree motivation was not there and Ace and Dylan stopped putting their all into this.

Pike cannot hold them accountable because they are bigger and of more importance in the basketball world than Pike is. So while it may be happening (accountability/structureless/etc.) it’s the outcome, not the cause.

From the standpoint of a player/competitor, the season is not over until it’s actually over i.e. even winning out the regular season would not give you a chance at a bid.

If we win out we are likely in and if we absorb one more loss there is still a shot, now obviously this is extremely unlikely but if they are true competitors this is how they should be thinking.

 

[fluoxetine]

Er I am so checked out I forgot that was our 13th loss, so everything I said above except we need to win out to have a chance and one more loss completely kills it

 

[NickRU714]

It’s A.

B only really materialized because the season was lost so early. Ace and Dylan took a risk on RU and they got let down by the program not providing and adequate supporting cast. Once that was clear (season over, nothing to play for), I certainly agree motivation was not there and Ace and Dylan stopped putting their all into this.

Pike cannot hold them accountable because they are bigger and of more importance in the basketball world than Pike is. So while it may be happening (accountability/structureless/etc.) it’s the outcome, not the cause.

2023-2024: 9th in the Big Ten with a different A
2023-2024: 12th in the Big Ten with a different A
2024-2025: currently 14 in the Big Ten with a different A

Seems B may have materialized a little earlier.

Unless A has been getting worse year over year.
In which case it's actually back to B being a problem (since B picks A).

 

[fluoxetine]

2023-2024: 9th in the Big Ten with a different A
2023-2024: 12th in the Big Ten with a different A
2024-2025: currently 14 in the Big Ten with a different A

Seems B may have materialized a little earlier.

Unless A has been getting worse year over year.
In which case it's actually back to B being a problem (since B picks A).

The current team is better than last year’s team.

 

[darkcheck]

The current team is better than last year’s team.

Sadly though im not sure their record will be.

 

[365Poster24Seven]

It’s clearly A we do not have a roster full of Big Ten players and you cheap fans and some alums don’t donate squat to NIL so you conveniently bash Pike. It’s just another bash thread like the in game threads are. Again 95% of you offer up your opinion and nothing else $$$$$$.

 

[RUsojo]

2023-2024: 9th in the Big Ten with a different A
2023-2024: 12th in the Big Ten with a different A
2024-2025: currently 14 in the Big Ten with a different A

Seems B may have materialized a little earlier.

Unless A has been getting worse year over year.
In which case it's actually back to B being a problem (since B picks A).

OOC resume worse

 

[seansherm]

It's clearly B.

If it's 100% just the players, then what players are we supposed to bring in that would thrive in our offense of standing around while 1 guy dribbles the ball?

Who are all these talented players that are going thrive standing in the corner?

I'm not sure what I think about this. We brought in players that should, theoretically thrive just standing in the corner on offense. Martini. Hayes. They don't do anything else offensively. Talent level isn't in question, it's not extremely high. We all knew we were bringing in two ball dominant guys. We surrounded them with mostly one dimensional players.

 

[Shelby65]

I'm not sure what I think about this. We brought in players that should, theoretically thrive just standing in the corner on offense. Martini. Hayes. They don't do anything else offensively. Talent level isn't in question, it's not extremely high. We all knew we were bringing in two ball dominant guys. We surrounded them with mostly one dimensional players.

'Standing in the corner' only works with guards who can create offense for them. Ours don't: Harper, Williams, Davis, our Derkack-of-no-trades occasional guard shot hunters. Simpson and Geo were no better, only hero-ballers.

Griffiths has other glaring deficiencies, but he's another one who could have been better here if guards created good looks for him. But instead he often stood in the corner watching Davis and Simpson throw the ball at the backboard.

 

[seansherm]

'Standing in the corner' only works with guards who can create offense for them. Ours don't: Harper, Williams, Davis and our Derkack-of-no-trades occasional guard shot hunters. Simpson and Geo were no better, only hero-ballers.

Agree, and theoretically, Dylan should be able to do that. Even JWill who can get in the paint. But you are right, they have to be willing ball sharers.

 

[Shelby65]

Agree, and theoretically, Dylan should be able to do that. Even JWill who can get in the paint. But you are right, they have to be willing ball sharers.

and they are not willing. and Harper or Bailey either. It's obviously how Pike wants to run offense. Isolation. Not because he or Knight don't know anything else, but because thinks we can out-athlete most other teams.