No game thread?

[Local Shill]

interest at an a time low.

Remember when there was a reasonable expectation of having a shot to beat a top team in Piscataway?

Treading water is generous for the state of this program.

 

[bac2therac]

Prepare to be attacked Shill or maybe not since its been crickets here lately

a game like this used to draw 4-6K at the RAC...looks maybe 2K tops today

RU looks awful. They have no offense and no shooters. They are slower and their D isn't good. There isn't leadership and there doesn't seem to be any urgency

I said all this after the first game when they lost to SHU by 30..how does that happen and then after each blowout to SJU and FSU and I was put on full blast. Well there was a reason I was saying it. All that I was saying were warnings signs and they have continued all season long. Its safe to say its a mediocre team with players have disappointing season and with the younger players just not up to Rutgers standards.

Expectations are truly at an all time low and I wonder what the end game is here. The program is regressing and there is nothing coming in and with Copper/Hollovay gone this team will sink to the bottom 4 in the league.

Oh and Michigan State beat Minnesota 114-106. The idea that this game is about defense is long gone. You need shooters. Its very evident that the game has passed CVS by. She dominated when the game was different, the game has changed. I liken it to Theresa Grentz at the end of her days. Game changed, Grentz was still the same but she was overmatched and not recruiting well..ditto for CVS

and as I write this I just saw a total lack of effort on rebounding and toughness as Maryland just fights for the ball and easily wins and then nails a 3 to go up 18. RU used to have toughness, now they play passively and scared to make a mistake

 

[Fishky]

Well this is very sad so why bother. It's not a bad crowd here but it is a poor showing by the team and it may be time to start over.

 

[RUJMM78]

60--40 Maryland with 7 minutes remaining.Watching this game for one quarter Maryland clearly is bigger,stronger and better than Rutgers.Their dominance of Rutgers is very similar to past games with UConn in the Big East.

 

[andrewlobby]

My interest is at a low point; in fact, I decided to stay home this afternoon rather than see another home loss. After our present seniors graduate the optimism towards next season will decline sharply. I did watch Michigan State/Minnesota score a ton of points today and I wonder how most of these BIG teams have better talent than we have and know how to use it.

 

[RU MAN]

Yes, it's been quite evident to me for a long time that Stringer is over-matched as a coach now. Defense like hers has been figured out a decade ago. And after all of these years as a coach she still hasn't figured out that you need quality outside shooters, which she doesn't seem to want to recruit or needs to recruit. And she still hasn't figured out how to break down a zone. How many years have we we watched her teams just throw the ball around the perimeter as the clock ticks down forcing her players to chuck up a poor shot before the buzzer sounds? We saw it today. There is no sense on how to get the ball into the high or low post to make the defense honest. When it collapses you kick it out to shooters just like Maryland and UCONN do. Brenda Frese has schooled Stringer for years and Stringer is either too stubborn or too much in denial to see what needs to be done on the offensive side, because Rutgers poor offense cannot compensate for a mediocre defense. It amazes me how successful C Viv has been, but just like her mentor John Chaney, who never figured out that offense AND defense wins championships and not just one. The modern game passed Chaney by as it has done for C Viv.

And even though the score will show the game was close in the end (still a 14 point loss at home), Brenda called off the dogs, because Maryland could have easily won this game by 30+ points. We need a new coach of THIS ERA who gets how to play against the Geno's and Brenda's of the world. Stringer was great in her time, but not now.

She should be given all of the laudatory awards and honors for a GREAT CAREER. But I believe it's time for Hobbs to move into the future with a top notch coach and recruiter who gets what is needed to win a championship at Rutgers and yes, that includes great outside shooters on offense who can make the other team more hones, which opens up the lane.

 

[bac2therac]

oh i bet someone will come back with stats that show 3 point shooting is up. Well yes it is but that's not what we mean. Rarely do the RU 3 point shooters step up in a big game. Gonzalez got hurt and that sucked but she was a player who basically came in for a few minutes and that was it because CVS didn't like her D. You have to recruit the ponytails who can drain those 3s. Even Maryland has one. The fact that CVS cant develop its freshmen players to meaningfully make a difference in a game is inexcusable. Freshmen are coming in and making big contribution right away. Sanders and Jeune look tentative and scared, that's not the way to play. Parker is incredibly spotty and by senior year she should be solid. How about the RU bigs both of them...cant handle the ball at all off their hands, our entry passes are terrible and we have no spacing. I see other teams easily get the ball in to their big girl for layups. Whatever happened to the 55? Has that been retired

I wanted to watch the Michigan State presser the other night but apparently RU athletics doesn't put up pressers on the site after a loss so Im not sure a Maryland presser would be up either although I really want to hear what CVS said after Mich State

 

[RUTrack94]

lose to Purdue, spilt one of the last 2, then lose in the first round . . . decline the NIT . . . descend into irrelevance

 

[RutgersDon]

Time for a change!!!

 

[richthedentist]

Agreed we have been discussing this the last few years and the longer we stick with CVS the more it will set us back. Hobbs has to delicately navigate this change

 

[shields]

have to have kids who can shoot the ball. The girl who scored 60 for Minnesota had 9 threes in that game. Do we get 9 threes in like 4 games combined?

 

[MADHAT1]

Oh well, game thread short but disappointing.
Hoped for upset, but won't say I expected one.
Like I said in another thread need to win 2 of last 3 games, this was the 1 probable loss.
Surprised to see some looking like they expected a W.
I admire your optimism. [cheers]

 

[nirrad]

Yes, it's been quite evident to me for a long time that Stringer is over-matched as a coach now. Defense like hers has been figured out a decade ago. And after all of these years as a coach she still hasn't figured out that you need quality outside shooters, which she doesn't seem to want to recruit or needs to recruit. And she still hasn't figured out how to break down a zone. How many years have we we watched her teams just throw the ball around the perimeter as the clock ticks down forcing her players to chuck up a poor shot before the buzzer sounds? We saw it today. There is no sense on how to get the ball into the high or low post to make the defense honest. When it collapses you kick it out to shooters just like Maryland and UCONN do. Brenda Frese has schooled Stringer for years and Stringer is either too stubborn or too much in denial to see what needs to be done on the offensive side, because Rutgers poor offense cannot compensate for a mediocre defense. It amazes me how successful C Viv has been, but just like her mentor John Chaney, who never figured out that offense AND defense wins championships and not just one. The modern game passed Chaney by as it has done for C Viv.

And even though the score will show the game was close in the end (still a 14 point loss at home), Brenda called off the dogs, because Maryland could have easily won this game by 30+ points. We need a new coach of THIS ERA who gets how to play against the Geno's and Brenda's of the world. Stringer was great in her time, but not now.

She should be given all of the laudatory awards and honors for a GREAT CAREER. But I believe it's time for Hobbs to move into the future with a top notch coach and recruiter who gets what is needed to win a championship at Rutgers and yes, that includes great outside shooters on offense who can make the other team more hones, which opens up the lane.

And who would you suggest?

 

[RU Husky]

Addition by subtraction

 

[RocktheRac]

Let the season play out folks

 

[Abro1975]

The announcers said if RU wins it's last 2 games (Purdue, Michigan) C Viv should get another invite to the NCAAs. First round Big 10 game winnable as well. Last 2, Maryland and Mich St, were pretty good teams.

 

[wngarbarini]

NCAAs? You must be joking. Our lack of man to man defense today was so evident it was embarrassing. They shot 50% or over because no one guarded them and they shot wide open shots. Try a zone as it can't get any worse than what I saw man to man

 

[dmd78]

interest at an a time low.

Remember when there was a reasonable expectation of having a shot to beat a top team in Piscataway?

Treading water is generous for the state of this program.

seriously, shill, did you really care whether or not there was a game thread, or were you just stirring the pot as you usually do? if you actually cared, you would have started an actual game thread. but you hate the coach, always did, and can't wait to see her gone so that you can celebrate ... right?

 

[Knight Time Fan]

Yes, it's been quite evident to me for a long time that Stringer is over-matched as a coach now. Defense like hers has been figured out a decade ago. And after all of these years as a coach she still hasn't figured out that you need quality outside shooters, which she doesn't seem to want to recruit or needs to recruit.

Rutgers is non-the-less 1st or 2nd in both scoring and field goal defense in the B1G. While the scoring defense is what would have been an unacceptable 60ish over-all it is really only like 2 points a game from being 30 something. We allow somewhere in the high 50's per game.

I also disagree with posters about defense not mattering anymore. Actually, UConn plays tremendous defense. They are almost always close to the top in defense. And have been for years.

Actually, I see an awful lot of very low scores throughout the power conference games. Whether it is all bad offense or good defense I surely don't know, but those who think I'm making this up, feel free to check.

The biggest difference between the current RU team and teams in the past to me is talent. As coaches get older, I think it does become more difficult to recruit, for a variety of reasons, which may lead to worse performance, leading to more difficulty in recruiting, etc.

I don't buy into games passing coaches by. I think aging coaches ability to put a top product on the floor decreases towards the end of their careers. When it becomes unacceptable to the school, they are gone, for example, Andy Landers last year. It doesn't mean teams are "bad", just that the best the coach can do decreases at least partly for reasons not 100% under their control.

 

[ecojew]

Oh well, game thread short but disappointing.
Hoped for upset, but won't say I expected one.
Like I said in another thread need to win 2 of last 3 games, this was the 1 probable loss.
Surprised to see some looking like they expected a W.
I admire your optimism. [cheers]

I did not go in there expecting a W but I did expect to see a good effort on RU's part. But that didn't happen and several of the other posts in this thread have pointed to some of the problems with this team. The most glaring deficiency was the lack of a shooter. Despite UMd's obvious strength under the basket - they repeatedly wrestled rebounds out of the hands of RU players with position - we continued to try to force the ball inside and frequently passed up clear looks from 3-point land. It was a puzzling game, in some ways like watching the football continue to try to run up the middle against Ohio State (and with a similar result).

The crowd was quite enthusiastic until it was taken out of the game by the play of our team. Surprisingly, unlike at football games, nearly everyone remained till the end.

A highlight was the halftime introduction of so many cancer survivors and the nice welcome they received from the crowd.

 

[RocktheRac]

Unfortunately Hobbs better make a decision pronto as RUWBB as we knew will be in the abyss soon. Once we get there it will take a long time digging out. Its a cryin shame how far we have fallen .

 

[RU MAN]

Rutgers is non-the-less 1st or 2nd in both scoring and field goal defense in the B1G. While the scoring defense is what would have been an unacceptable 60ish over-all it is really only like 2 points a game from being 30 something. We allow somewhere in the high 50's per game.

I also disagree with posters about defense not mattering anymore. Actually, UConn plays tremendous defense. They are almost always close to the top in defense. And have been for years.

Actually, I see an awful lot of very low scores throughout the power conference games. Whether it is all bad offense or good defense I surely don't know, but those who think I'm making this up, feel free to check.

The biggest difference between the current RU team and teams in the past to me is talent. As coaches get older, I think it does become more difficult to recruit, for a variety of reasons, which may lead to worse performance, leading to more difficulty in recruiting, etc.

I don't buy into games passing coaches by. I think aging coaches ability to put a top product on the floor decreases towards the end of their careers. When it becomes unacceptable to the school, they are gone, for example, Andy Landers last year. It doesn't mean teams are "bad", just that the best the coach can do decreases at least partly for reasons not 100% under their control.

All I can say is: REALLY? Sorry, but I've heard these weak retorts for years defending Stringer. I have NEVER questioned her defensive brilliance. It's her inability to understand how to coach an offense. You bring up all of these points, but NEVER address her major flaw as a coach, which is offense. It's not just talent, it's the offensive schemes you run. Passing the ball around the perimeter until the shot clock winds down to five seconds and then chucking up the ball, is NOT offense. Breaking down a zone with timely passes inside and out to your high and low post players, and scoring inside is what forces an opponent's coach to go back to man-to-man on defense. That in a general way without getting into the minutiae is how to break down a zone defense, whether it's a 1-3-1, a 2-3 or 1-4. The reason why so many teams play zone against us is because they no how horrible we are at breaking down a zone and scoring off it.

Can you honestly tell me when was the last time you saw a Stringer team break down a zone and score forcing the other team back to man-to-man?

And I completely disagree with you that the game doesn't pass coaches by. I gave you an example with Chaney. Stringer's mentor had the same issues as she does now. The game has changed. It's not just about one side of the ball, which in Stringer is defense and hope to get enough turnovers and fastbreaks to offset mediocre offensive schemes. The reason why UCONN is so good is NOT just talent, but Geno's ability to understand how to attack an opponent's weakness whether they play man-to-man or zone against them. Yes, it's talent, but it's also the way an offense is run and if Stringer doesn't have an All-American shooting from outside like Cappie then everything breaks down.

I watched much of yesterday's game against Maryland. Aside from Hollivay, the other Bigs we have were terrible at getting open within the zone, setting screens, catching the ball and looking to shoot or catching the ball and looking to dish it outside to an open player. It appeared as if their entire reason for being on the floor was to get rid of the "hot potato" as fast as they can. And if one wants to tout "defense" where was it from the bigs we have? It was non-existent. I didn't see them move their feet or double team or block out. I saw a lot of reach-ins. I saw a lot of our women out of place and trailing the player they're supposed to be guarding. I saw a lot of give and go's against them allowing smaller players to get inside and shoot uncontested layups.

Today's game is about proficiency on offense and not just defense. Sure we have good stats on scoring defense. Stringer's teams have always had that and have been famous for it. But when was the last time a Stringer team was ranked at the top of a conference in offensive scoring? YOu need both. That's why in my humble opinion Stringer has never won a championship. The teams that do, are excellent on both sides of the ball.

 

[Local Shill]

seriously, shill, did you really care whether or not there was a game thread, or were you just stirring the pot as you usually do? if you actually cared, you would have started an actual game thread. but you hate the coach, always did, and can't wait to see her gone so that you can celebrate ... right?

I don't hate her but it will benefit RU sports as a whole when the sport she coaches isn't by far the biggest money loser in the department. Even you would have to admit the salary is insane vis à vis the revenue her program brings in and the level of success its had since 2009. This program is a smidge above average in 2016 (and that might be generous).

How many times can someone be rewarded for the same accomplishments?

 

[Tango Two]

oh i bet someone will come back with stats that show 3 point shooting is up. Well yes it is but that's not what we mean. Rarely do the RU 3 point shooters step up in a big game. Gonzalez got hurt and that sucked but she was a player who basically came in for a few minutes and that was it because CVS didn't like her D. You have to recruit the ponytails who can drain those 3s. Even Maryland has one. The fact that CVS cant develop its freshmen players to meaningfully make a difference in a game is inexcusable. Freshmen are coming in and making big contribution right away. Sanders and Jeune look tentative and scared, that's not the way to play. Parker is incredibly spotty and by senior year she should be solid. How about the RU bigs both of them...cant handle the ball at all off their hands, our entry passes are terrible and we have no spacing. I see other teams easily get the ball in to their big girl for layups. Whatever happened to the 55? Has that been retired

I wanted to watch the Michigan State presser the other night but apparently RU athletics doesn't put up pressers on the site after a loss so Im not sure a Maryland presser would be up either although I really want to hear what CVS said after Mich State

Maryland Post Game Pressconference:

 

[Tango Two]

oh i bet someone will come back with stats that show 3 point shooting is up. Well yes it is but that's not what we mean. Rarely do the RU 3 point shooters step up in a big game. Gonzalez got hurt and that sucked but she was a player who basically came in for a few minutes and that was it because CVS didn't like her D. You have to recruit the ponytails who can drain those 3s. Even Maryland has one. The fact that CVS cant develop its freshmen players to meaningfully make a difference in a game is inexcusable. Freshmen are coming in and making big contribution right away. Sanders and Jeune look tentative and scared, that's not the way to play. Parker is incredibly spotty and by senior year she should be solid. How about the RU bigs both of them...cant handle the ball at all off their hands, our entry passes are terrible and we have no spacing. I see other teams easily get the ball in to their big girl for layups. Whatever happened to the 55? Has that been retired

I wanted to watch the Michigan State presser the other night but apparently RU athletics doesn't put up pressers on the site after a loss so Im not sure a Maryland presser would be up either although I really want to hear what CVS said after Mich State

Michigan State post Game Press Conference:

 

[Knight Time Fan]

All I can say is: REALLY? Sorry, but I've heard these weak retorts for years defending Stringer. I have NEVER questioned her defensive brilliance. It's her inability to understand how to coach an offense. You bring up all of these points, but NEVER address her major flaw as a coach, which is offense.

And I completely disagree with you that the game doesn't pass coaches by. I gave you an example with Chaney. Stringer's mentor had the same issues as she does now. The game has changed. It's not just about one side of the ball, which in Stringer is defense and hope to get enough turnovers and fastbreaks to offset mediocre offensive schemes. The reason why UCONN is so good is NOT just talent, but Geno's ability to understand how to attack an opponent's weakness whether they play man-to-man or zone against them.

Today's game is about proficiency on offense and not just defense. Sure we have good stats on scoring defense. Stringer's teams have always had that and have been famous for it. But when was the last time a Stringer team was ranked at the top of a conference in offensive scoring? YOu need both. That's why in my humble opinion Stringer has never won a championship. The teams that do, are excellent on both sides of the ball.

We have some agreement and some strong disagreement.

First - I addressed defense not as a defense of CVS but in answer to someone who said it was poor this year. I personally don't think it is great, because unlike in the past we don't get a stop when we need it consistently, but it wasn't as bad as the poster implied.

A poster implied that defense was no longer so important. I think it is vital. UConn has great offense, but it also has great defense. The elite teams almost always have both.

What RU lacks is a consistent or strong offense. Always has, even in the good years, when it was "good enough" with stellar defense to make the Final Four. I think CVS's offense runs best with heady players. Most of today's recruits (although not all) lack a strong BB IQ, which is a problem. I don't need to break down details like you to know it is a fact. In fact, I don't think any RU fan thinks the offense is or has been stellar.

I continue to disagree that the game passes coaches by, as a terminology. As I stated, older coaches are less able to recruit (variety of reasons, including fading fame, increasingly poor results because it becomes circular, perceived upcoming end of career, etc.). They may become obsessed with winning at all costs (I always thought that was Cheney's issue, but not Viv's). They may not be able to communicate as well with players (generation(s) gap). In general, as coaches age and their career moves to a close, they usually become less effective, and I accept that CVS is in this general trend. I disagree that the she doesn't understand the game, or, with the right players, would be unable to be successful.

Separately, I just don't see that another year or two will have a material affect on RU's long term future.

 

[Knight Time Fan]

I don't hate her but it will benefit RU sports as a whole when the sport she coaches isn't by far the biggest money loser in the department. Even you would have to admit the salary is insane vis à vis the revenue her program brings in and the level of success its had since 2009. This program is a smidge above average in 2016 (and that might be generous).

How many times can someone be rewarded for the same accomplishments?

Well, with the current contract amounts, anyone you can hire for less will be extremely risky. With the pay cuts in her current contract, she is no way out of range of a successful experienced coaches salary such as she was when she came here or you would hope her successor would be.

Or would you prefer the program not continue to be successful?

 

[2bornot2b]

Some teams will take a quick 3 if you slack on them and believe it is going in. Ohio St and Minn are somewhat like this. This is a coaching philosophy that gives players confidence to shoot. RU players don't see each other when they do shoot it- I guess because they are so surprised their teammate would "jack it up" just because they have a decent look from 3. And so there is nobody attacking the offensive glass quickly enough. So they feel really dumb when they take a chance and miss. CVS is still a good coach, but I really hope RU looks for a coach with a faster game pace approach, when the time comes. This is about the entertainment value of the game, as much as it is about the winning. RU got to the NC game with awesome defense. I hope the next time it's with awesome offense. JMHO.

 

[bac2therac]

Hollivay, Scaife, and Copper are players who exceed anything other school has talent wise in the Big 10 except Maryland and Ohio State yet why is RU in 10th place..ditto for last year when we had 5 such players...and Im not even including Canty yet RU finished 7th. It was a huge disappointment and underachievement last year

 

[RU MAN]

We have some agreement and some strong disagreement.

First - I addressed defense not as a defense of CVS but in answer to someone who said it was poor this year. I personally don't think it is great, because unlike in the past we don't get a stop when we need it consistently, but it wasn't as bad as the poster implied.

A poster implied that defense was no longer so important. I think it is vital. UConn has great offense, but it also has great defense. The elite teams almost always have both.

What RU lacks is a consistent or strong offense. Always has, even in the good years, when it was "good enough" with stellar defense to make the Final Four. I think CVS's offense runs best with heady players. Most of today's recruits (although not all) lack a strong BB IQ, which is a problem. I don't need to break down details like you to know it is a fact. In fact, I don't think any RU fan thinks the offense is or has been stellar.

I continue to disagree that the game passes coaches by, as a terminology. As I stated, older coaches are less able to recruit (variety of reasons, including fading fame, increasingly poor results because it becomes circular, perceived upcoming end of career, etc.). They may become obsessed with winning at all costs (I always thought that was Cheney's issue, but not Viv's). They may not be able to communicate as well with players (generation(s) gap). In general, as coaches age and their career moves to a close, they usually become less effective, and I accept that CVS is in this general trend. I disagree that the she doesn't understand the game, or, with the right players, would be unable to be successful.

Separately, I just don't see that another year or two will have a material affect on RU's long term future.

Your points are well taken, and your third paragraph regarding recruiting is very true. But in C. Viv's case she had 5 All-Americans last year and 3 this year, yet they continue to underachieve. It reminds me of April Sykes. She was considered the 2nd best player in HS and when she got to RU I firmly believe that Stringer ruined her. If she had gone and played for Geno or Brenda or any of the other top coaches she would have been a star scorer. Stringer wants everyone to play defense first and offense second, believing that a superb defense causes turnovers, which leads to fastbreaks, which leads to easy layups. All well and good when you're playing average to below average teams. But when you're playing top 25 teams they are able to overcome much of those unforced errors and that's when having a stout offense to go along with a stout defense is so important. Stringer, as brilliant of a defensive mind as she is, is just the opposite when it comes to offense. She doesn't have a clue how to get the best out of her players. What we see in many of them is a tentativeness (see April Sykes) that if they shoot and miss, they'll be yanked out of the game, which is true. I was hoping when Stringer got that top class several years ago, she would have changed her coaching philosophy just a bit to allow one of her assistants to take over the offense and guide them into an exciting brand of BB. We know that didn't happen and we know what happened next with the transfers, and it wasn't just homesickness, etc. Stringer had beaten the offense out of them, stripped them down and tried to rebuild them in her defensive mold. This generation doesn't want to go there and believes that offense is just as important as defense. They balked. Stringer held her ground and the entire top notch class fell a part.

I wish Stringer well. She has been an awesome coach and leader on and off the court. But with that said, her time has come. She needs to bow out gracefully and allow the next generation of Brenda's or Geno's to take over the program. Rutgers needs a new and exciting brand of BB, which includes a great offense matched with a great defense. That by the way is what we will see with Chris Ash in football. We now need to see that in women and men's BB. That way I'm confident we will see the RAC come alive for both programs. Sadly the RAC is dead and that's a huge shame.