On the Banks: Comparing the Rutgers Basketball Rebuild Part I: Seton Hall

[dpwhite]

With Steve Pikiell a year into his massive overhaul of the Rutgers Scarlet Knights basketball program, Aaron and I are going to take a look at some other rebuilds that have happened during the 21st century. How long they took, what went into them, and how they relate to the Scarlet Knights.

The first one we should look at is one of the closest to Rutgers—both in proximity and type of rebuild.

The Seton Hall Pirates.

 

[RUJMM78]

A Rutgers rebuild is far more difficult than at other schools because of the sustained losing .Many recruits have never seen Rutgers play even in the NIT no less the NCAA.
Perception matters in any rebuild and that includes facilities,media attention,league rankings,won/loss record and post season participation.Seton Hall had a easier rebuild because mens basketball is the main sport for that school while at Rutgers football dominates.

 

[sct1111]

A Rutgers rebuild is far more difficult than at other schools because of the sustained losing .Many recruits have never seen Rutgers play even in the NIT no less the NCAA.
Perception matters in any rebuild and that includes facilities,media attention,league rankings,won/loss record and post season participation.Seton Hall had a easier rebuild because mens basketball is the main sport for that school while at Rutgers football dominates.

I honestly think once the facilities are built, we become the better program. Right now they have the better facilities. At the Seton Hall RU game at Prudential this year there were probably more Rutgers fans there. We actually have the larger fan base. You're right that they have the better institutional support but I think we even that out in a few years and even surpass that with full membership into the Big Ten.

The recruits shunning us and going to Seton Hall will take a much harder look at us when we have the practice facility.

 

[dpwhite]

The point of this series will be to illustrate not what programs are better and why but how long their rebuilds took and if they happen in straight lines.

 

[TODDB33]

One of the things I keep hearing is "facilities matter" and I don't disagree, however take a look at the facilities at Gonzaga. They had a 4000 seat arena which I think has been expanded to 6000, they don't have a separate practice facility and they have gone to the dance 16 years in a row. So how are they doing it? How do they get top recruits? Obviously winning helps and also I think their total enrollment Is around 7000 . Bringing this up just as a point of reference that what we have now is probably more than what Gonzaga has.

 

[greenknight]

Location, location location

 

[lwyrup]

At the Seton Hall RU game at Prudential this year there were probably more Rutgers fans there.

No.

 

[MADHAT1]

One of the things I keep hearing is "facilities matter" and I don't disagree, however take a look at the facilities at Gonzaga. They had a 4000 seat arena which I think has been expanded to 6000, they don't have a separate practice facility and they have gone to the dance 16 years in a row. So how are they doing it? How do they get top recruits? Obviously winning helps and also I think their total enrollment Is around 7000 . Bringing this up just as a point of reference that what we have now is probably more than what Gonzaga has.

Gonzaga's 6,000 seats :All seats are individual and have arm and backrests.
The practice facility is in the works , groundbreaking was Sept. 2016 and part of the Gonzaga Will fundraising campaign launched in 2015 that had raised $212 million toward its $250 million goal by Nov of 2016.
But I think you're right about the Zags ( until the 3 story 51,240 square feet Volkar Center is completed ) not having a practice facility and having to hold their practices attheir home court : the McCarthey Athletic Center.

 

[dpwhite]

Gonzaga's 6,000 seats :All seats are individual and have arm and backrests.
The practice facility is in the works , groundbreaking was Sept. 2016 and part of the Gonzaga Will fundraising campaign launched in 2015 that had raised $212 million toward its $250 million goal by Nov of 2016.
But I think you're right about the Zags ( until the 3 story 51,240 square feet Volkar Center is completed ) not having a practice facility and having to hold their practices attheir home court : the McCarthey Athletic Center.

You also have to remember that college basketball was very different when these teams started winning and once you start winning it's easier to recruit. At least that's my opinion... I could be wrong.

 

[MADHAT1]

You also have to remember that college basketball was very different when these teams started winning and once you start winning it's easier to recruit. At least that's my opinion... I could be wrong.

dp, how much do you think the Zags overseas recruiting helped them compete and become a constant NCAA tourney program.
I think Few's coaching is a major factor, but it seems like Gonzaga always has a big man from overseas making them tough to beat.

 

[dpwhite]

dp, how much do you think the Zags overseas recruiting helped them compete and become a constant NCAA tourney program.
I think Few's coaching is a major factor, but it seems like Gonzaga always has a big man from overseas making them tough to beat.

I think they knew they were going to get blue chip talent here. It had to help a ton.

 

[NewJerseyHawk]

Unfortunately, it is impossible to chart any others program and their rebuild, without the context of recruiting (or lack thereof), the consistency of the coaching staff beyond the head coach in place, unique players that were landed etc.

I know it's not popular but losing games doesn't mean you are consistently going to lose and breaking through and winning games, doesn't mean you are on an uptick or destined to turn the proverbial corner...

Facilities help, but only indicate a willingness to spend or allocate money towards the program.

The bottom line is coaching and the assistant coaches are 85-90% responsible for the growth and development of the relationships/player recruitment/player development and ultimately winning.

There are too many other factors missing from the SHU report or overview....it really should be in context of one of their experts that have followed their recruiting wins/misses and other factors that really are beyond what games were won or lost.

RU could in theory make the NCAA's Last Four in next season with three to four additions this spring and I would not call that a rebuild, it would be a creation of somewhat "right place/right time" circumstances, where you can add a Blake Harris, Cam Johnson, Mamadou Doucoure and a 5th year PF/C that has the ability to play sound defense.

One of the lost items and why I don't believe SHU has been "rebuilt", is they have an entire recruiting class of 5 players from their 2015 recruiting class, completely flushed out of the program....that means not one recruit/transfer from less than 2 years ago, is currently on the roster. It's practically impossible to sustain any long term consistency, when you essentially have an entire class of 5 players gone from your roster.

SHU was essentially built on the recruiting of former HS coach Tiny Morton, who engineered the landing of Whitehead to their program....the other associated players like Desi Rodriguez and Carrington followed and Angel Delgado was landed by former SHU assistant coach Orlando Antigua.....Antigua eventually left for USF to join his brother on his staff and ultimately landed USF under recruiting violations and they were eventually fired....

That one recruiting class has carried SHU for the last 3 seasons and will do so again next year, as that one recruiting class are seniors next year....one could argue that with that "winning", that recruiting for SHU would be on a significant uptick locally, which has not actually taken place for a program that has made 2 straight NCAA's and will make a 3rd straight NCAA next year as well. There hasn't been that uptick, which is perhaps more of a "quick fix", more than a rebuild.

All RU has to do is pay the existing coaching staff and keep it in place for 3 straight recruiting cycles and continue to grind on the recruiting trail and seek the right transfers (not necessarily the most talented) that fill in the gaps. RU's staff can coach on game days and that is truly the key for the rebuild.....when you have a good coach, keep him and pay him to develop a consistent program and you will land on the bubble and get to a point where you are in the discussion most years for an NCAA birth.

 

[sct1111]

No.

Yep.

Seton Hall has a tiny fanbase.

 

[LC-88]

NJH, you are 100% right. Pay the coaches.

 

[bac2therac]

I honestly think once the facilities are built, we become the better program. Right now they have the better facilities. At the Seton Hall RU game at Prudential this year there were probably more Rutgers fans there. We actually have the larger fan base. You're right that they have the better institutional support but I think we even that out in a few years and even surpass that with full membership into the Big Ten.

The recruits shunning us and going to Seton Hall will take a much harder look at us when we have the practice facility.

lol what game were you at...this is wrong, SHU had 80% of the fans in the building

its going to take more than facilities to push RU past SHU. Its a basketball school first and their support has dwarfed RU for almost 3 decades in every way

 

[Russ Wood]

SHU was essentially built on the recruiting of former HS coach Tiny Morton, who engineered the landing of Whitehead to their program....the other associated players like Desi Rodriguez and Carrington followed and Angel Delgado was landed by former SHU assistant coach Orlando Antigua.....Antigua eventually left for USF to join his brother on his staff and ultimately landed USF under recruiting violations and they were eventually fired...

You mean Oliver Antigua, Orlando was not at Seton Hall.

Also, to my knowledge, USF doesn't have any recruiting violations. The NCAA started an investigation of potential academic fraud at the school last July, but there still has not been a Notice Of Allegations handed down by the NCAA.

 

[RUInFlorida]

I'm sorry but even after some of you educated me about how unlikely a new or upgraded RAC is in the near future, I can't sit here and agree that a practice facility will send recruits to Rutgers instead of Seton Hall or another school. Our arena is still substandard and will drive recruits away in my humble opinion. Then again, all it takes is 1 or 2 special players committing to turn this thing around. I have confidence that if anyone can do it, Coach Pikiell can. He has my full support!

 

[scarletrat]

Their "rebuild" is as Hawk put it--all driven by "selling" or "renting out" Assistant Coach positions...yeah, I know it is now happening at Missouri...I'm not passing judgement--when you haven't been to the dance since 1991, can't do that--simply pointing out how shoe did it...

 

[lwyrup]

Yep.

Seton Hall has a tiny fanbase.

No question Seton Hall has a smaller fanbase than Rutgers. However, there were not more Rutgers fans at that particular game. I obviously have no way of proving this with exact numbers but Seton Hall averages 7k fans per home game while Rutgers is sub 5,000, outside the top 100 in average attendance in the country, and you're telling me there were MORE Rutgers fans at a Seton Hall home game, where the capacity is 10,353? No.

 

[sct1111]

lol what game were you at...this is wrong, SHU had 80% of the fans in the building

its going to take more than facilities to push RU past SHU. Its a basketball school first and their support has dwarfed RU for almost 3 decades in every way

I'm partly trolling the Seton Hall fans but at the same time no way it was 80 20. There were A LOT of Rutgers fans there. At least 3k but probably more. The only other game I got to this season was the Wisconsin game at the Garden. THAT was probably 90/10. When walking the concourse at Prudential, I felt like it was pretty even in the number of red and blue shirts.

We probably didn't have more but it was no where near 80 20.

 

[batts]

I didn't draw too many parallels between Willard / SHU and Pykell / RU. What worked for Willard may not work for Pykell. I hate to overstate the obvious but RU needs to be very patient with Pykell and allow him to make steady progress towards respectability. His recruiting will improve once recruits realize that the Program is getting better, particularly since he has good assistant coaches who work the recruiting trail hard.

 

[dpwhite]

I didn't draw too many parallels between Willard / SHU and Pykell / RU. What worked for Willard may not work for Pykell. I hate to overstate the obvious but RU needs to be very patient with Pykell and allow him to make steady progress towards respectability. His recruiting will improve once recruits realize that the Program is getting better, particularly since he has good assistant coaches who work the recruiting trail hard.

Agree. We are going to look at a bunch of rebuilding efforts to see what we can glean from them as Pikiell starts his process.

 

[knights1212]

The game vs. SHU was no where near 80% SHU fans. The RU fans were louder for the game except for the last few minutes. I would say that RU had anywhere from 33% to 40% of the crowd. I was there and there were many RU fans in red at that game. I attend every RU home game and as many of the away games that I can get to. I went to the Stony Brook game on Long Island, the Fordham & Wisconsin games at MSG, the SHU game at the PRU Center and the Big Ten Tournament in Washington DC.

 

[batts]

The game vs. SHU was no where near 80% SHU fans. The RU fans were louder for the game except for the last few minutes. I would say that RU had anywhere from 33% to 40% of the crowd. I was there and there were many RU fans in red at that game. I attend every RU home game and as many of the away games that I can get to. I went to the Stony Brook game on Long Island, the Fordham & Wisconsin games at MSG, the SHU game at the PRU Center and the Big Ten Tournament in Washington DC.

33% to 40% would be a fair range of RU fans in the Arena.

 

[rubaseball78]

I'm sorry but even after some of you educated me about how unlikely a new or upgraded RAC is in the near future, I can't sit here and agree that a practice facility will send recruits to Rutgers instead of Seton Hall or another school. Our arena is still substandard and will drive recruits away in my humble opinion. Then again, all it takes is 1 or 2 special players committing to turn this thing around. I have confidence that if anyone can do it, Coach Pikiell can. He has my full support!

I don't see playing at the Prudential center where they curtain off the top level being any kind of draw for recruits. That facility, while nice, had absolutely no mistique. .

 

[BoroKnight]

Who needs mystique? It's a great facility and provides a lot of fan comfort.

Look, different programs offer different things. You think Cameron is some kind of basketball palace? On that basis, UNC should outrecruit Duke, but Duke has Coach K and all those banners. Gonzaga has two decades of routine NCAA appearances to make you forget where you are living for four years. The RAC will not be a detriment to recruiting once we can show recruits what it feels like when it's full. Until then, it will be, since not only have we lacked a practice facility but the "arena" isn't exactly state of the art. When you have neither, you're kind of in trouble. But again, a name coach, tradition or location could help you out.

All of which is why our situation is so damn tough.

 

[RutgersDon]

The detriment is the 25 years of under-funding of Rutgers athletics and putting money into pyramid building and poor computer systems and an over stocking of high paid amateur admins.

 

[bowlgoal]

Yep.

Seton Hall has a tiny fanbase.

No question Seton Hall has a smaller fanbase than Rutgers. However, there were not more Rutgers fans at that particular game. I obviously have no way of proving this with exact numbers but Seton Hall averages 7k fans per home game while Rutgers is sub 5,000, outside the top 100 in average attendance in the country, and you're telling me there were MORE Rutgers fans at a Seton Hall home game, where the capacity is 10,353? No.

I was at the game and there were not more Rutgers fans but Rutgers fans showed up big time and were scattered all over the arena. There's a resurgence right now and I think we can continue that momentum. I disagree that the practice facility isn't going to be a factor and that the RAC is going to hurt us. I believe that Hobbs will do a great job in renovating the exterior and maybe adding a new concourse and some additional seats on the end to connect and make a bowl shape. With the new practice center do will really still need pull out bleachers or can we replace with more permanent seating? As far as the court, there's nothing wrong with it and the new air conditioning was a huge improvement. I'm not sure recruits are going to care much about the old bathrooms or concession stands. If they want to replace the court with new wood; that's fine. To me; it's mostly the exterior and some minor improvements that could make the RAC and adequate arena with a great practice center attached. The locker room and new weight room are nice and most importantly, we have a real coaching staff. I'm not worried about hoops at this moment. I think the student body and dedicated fans are both going to rapidly expand under Pikiell. Sure, we need to recruit now and it's takes a few years but it will happen. I just hope when the time comes; we have the money to pay Pikiell and keep him here. I think it's going to require about $3 million a year to do so once he produces an NCAA team.

 

[rubaseball78]

Who needs mystique? It's a great facility and provides a lot of fan comfort.

Look, different programs offer different things. You think Cameron is some kind of basketball palace? On that basis, UNC should outrecruit Duke, but Duke has Coach K and all those banners. Gonzaga has two decades of routine NCAA appearances to make you forget where you are living for four years. The RAC will not be a detriment to recruiting once we can show recruits what it feels like when it's full. Until then, it will be, since not only have we lacked a practice facility but the "arena" isn't exactly state of the art. When you have neither, you're kind of in trouble. But again, a name coach, tradition or location could help you out.

All of which is why our situation is so damn tough.

Discussion was whether it was a draw for recruits, not whether it was comfy for fans. From s fan perspective I agree it is a nice facility.

 

[koleszar]

One of the things I keep hearing is "facilities matter" and I don't disagree, however take a look at the facilities at Gonzaga. They had a 4000 seat arena which I think has been expanded to 6000, they don't have a separate practice facility and they have gone to the dance 16 years in a row. So how are they doing it? How do they get top recruits? Obviously winning helps and also I think their total enrollment Is around 7000 . Bringing this up just as a point of reference that what we have now is probably more than what Gonzaga has.

Playing in the West Coast Conference doesn't exactly hurt either. It's a lot easier to move up the rungs there then it is in the former Big East or B1G. Win the conference your in the tourney get in the tourney you get better recruits.