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OT: $30 barrel oil best thing for USA since Steve Jobs

GeorgeStreet

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Jul 27, 2001
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Don't you believe the oil cartel shucksters. They've been feeding off America's banquet table for decades. Cheap oil is great for all the rest of us. I hope President Obama speaks to this in his State of the Union report tomorrow.
 
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I give you the same warning about this that I have given, consistently, for years.

We have problems now with Islamic radicalization. Imagine, if you will, the potential for serious trouble when they're all starving because their oil-based economies have gone to shit.

Be careful what you wish for. The whole notion of "independence from foreign oil" only works if the oil-producing economies have alternative methods for putting food in their peoples' mouths.
 
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We could do the smart thing and build up build up strategic oil reserves dramatically while it is cheap....
 
Funny,

Last I looked, we control the "foreign oil" in Iraq and control most of the Dictatorships and Kingdom's in the rest of the countries that we helped put in place.
 
This is actually very very bad for the U.S. The entire market, especially the S&P 500, is heavily invested/composed of Oil/Energy companies. Low oil prices spell disaster for these companies, especially those who assumed that oil would eventually come back up and level out around $50 a barrel. The market will continue to suffer until it can adjust to the idea that oil prices are going to remain low.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...bad-for-financial-markets-115120900133_1.html
 
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This is very bad for America. USA actually exports oil now so this will costs many Americans jobs. It also leads to deflation which hurts pricing in other sectors.
Also it's not like Americans are spending the money on goods. Just look at Macy's stock or gap or any retailer not named Amazon.
Also Why you may not care about the stock market the low oil prices have severely impacted the corporate bond markets especially the High yield market. Companies with zero ties to oil can't fund in this environment or are forced to fund at punitive rates. This hurts normal people and will lead to defaults in non energy companies and cost jobs.
 
The
This is actually very very bad for the U.S. The entire market, especially the S&P 500, is heavily invested/composed of Oil/Energy companies. Low oil prices spell disaster for these companies, especially those who assumed that oil would eventually come back up and level out around $50 a barrel. The market will continue to suffer until it can adjust to the idea that oil prices are going to remain low.
http://www.business-standard.com/ar...bad-for-financial-markets-115120900133_1.html





The impact is very negative for workers offshore and in the oil patch in Louisiana, Texas, North Dakota etc. These were relatively high paying jobs and there's no telling if/when they'll be back. The offshore guys typically work two weeks on and then get two weeks off. What do you think they did during those two weeks? Relatedly this is horrible news for hotels, restaurants and - ahem - other establishments in places like NOLA.
 
Cheap oil is a good thing. Anyone who argues otherwise must be in the energy market or just plain ignorant.
Oh thanks. That settles it then. Thanks for clearing this confusing stuff up for us.
 
Cheap oil is a good thing. Anyone who argues otherwise must be in the energy market or just plain ignorant.
I agree. All of manufacturing makes money as well as transportation of goods when oil drops in price. The way the stock market used to work was, when oil dropped, equities rose. Now it looks like Wall Street borrowed money to buy oil and they lost the bet.
 
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people in business make money off of the environment..some companies were ready for it and will prosper, other will not. You always have Highs, Lows, Flat periods in any market...its what you do next that matters..
 
Part of it is demand with China and other economies around the world weakening but part of it is the Saudis pumping like nobody's business creating oversupply and trying to push these "new" oil companies and such in the US/Canada out of business. The Exxons and Chevrons will survive as they always have through ups and downs of oil but the little and new players will have trouble. It takes oil at least around 50-60 barrel for a lot of those guys to break even to pull oil up out of the ground while it take the Saudis under 10 a barrel to break even. They're going to keep a firm grip on their market share over the market. I believe they're even exploring an IPO for Saudi Aramco.

So it does hurt jobs related to the energy industry here and it is somewhat a sign of weaker demand also which isn't a great harbinger for the economy. But there have been ups and downs in the past so I don't consider it all that unusual.
 
I give you the same warning about this that I have given, consistently, for years.

We have problems now with Islamic radicalization. Imagine, if you will, the potential for serious trouble when they're all starving because their oil-based economies have gone to shit.

Be careful what you wish for. The whole notion of "independence from foreign oil" only works if the oil-producing economies have alternative methods for putting food in their peoples' mouths.

With all those trillions the sheiks raked in over the past several decades, instead of building palaces in the desert they should have figured out how to turn sand into farmland. But, you know...hookers & blow make the world go round...
 
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Why exactly do you ignore Amazon? They're a retailer too.
They're a retailer but their greatest asset isn't their retail business it's their web services/cloud business where they're really making their money.

Actually, recently during this latest downturn so far this year the retailers like Walmart have been faring the strongest. WMT was actually one of the strongest performers this year after a huge drop last year, I actually had some but have since sold it last week. In a downturn everyone gets hit but the Walmarts of the world are places that on a relative basis don't do so bad as that's where people go to get the most bang for their buck. I wouldn't buy it now but if it dropped again I'd pick it up again.
 
With all those trillions the sheiks raked in over the past several decades, instead of building palaces in the desert they should have figured out how to turn sand into farmland. But, you know...hookers & blow make the world go round...

Yeah, but that's a lot not the point.
 
Does it really need explanation?
In short yes. Yes it does.

If you had said "it is good the sun didn't explode yesterday" that wouldn't require an explanation. Most would probably be cool with that.

But when you get into things like the price of a commodity that is an input for damn near everything we and other developed nations use in our societies and is an output for major national and international companies that employ millions of Americans, Canadians, Brazilians, Mexicans, Nigerians, Saudi Arabian, Iranians, Israelis, English, Indians etc etc and etc simple declarations like "good" and "bad" should go out the window IMO.
 
i was told by a commodities trader once that the gas price tends to move with the WTI. WTI was at it's peak in 2008-2009 timeframe at $140 per barrel. if i remember correctly, i think we paid $4 per gallon then. so, if it's $30 per barrel, shouldn't the gas be at 86 cents? the WTI has been sub $50 for nearly 6 months now. at $40 average, it should be around $1.15 per gallon.

i just paid $1.70 per yesterday. i am not complaining, but i think it's a myth that the gas price moves relative to cost of crude.

and agree with others. artificial price suppression has negative repercussions to the american macro economics.
 
i was told by a commodities trader once that the gas price tends to move with the WTI. WTI was at it's peak in 2008-2009 timeframe at $140 per barrel. if i remember correctly, i think we paid $4 per gallon then. so, if it's $30 per barrel, shouldn't the gas be at 86 cents? the WTI has been sub $50 for nearly 6 months now. at $40 average, it should be around $1.15 per gallon.

i just paid $1.70 per yesterday. i am not complaining, but i think it's a myth that the gas price moves relative to cost of crude.

and agree with others. artificial price suppression has negative repercussions to the american macro economics.

We did this already.

The cost of turning oil into gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene and plastic doesn't really change. 40 bucks a barrel is 95 cents a gallon. Suggesting that retail gasoline prices should be $1.15 means that you have an expectation that all costs associated with turning oil into gasoline, inclusive of profit, is 20 cents a gallon.

That's... ya know... wrong.
 
It takes oil at least around 50-60 barrel for a lot of those guys to break even to pull oil up out of the ground while it take the Saudis under 10 a barrel to break even. They're going to keep a firm grip on their market share over the market.

Saudi Arabia apparently needs $106/barrel to break even. Kuwait is the closest to breaking even at $45/barrel, followed by Qatar. A lot of the other countries need $80/barrel. Though another article says Iran needs closer to $130/barrel.
 
In the short run - yeah, feel great at the pump. And, certainly no one should feel sorry for the oil companies. But, it's never so clear cut as it seems.

US frackers have had a decade windfall based on new technology (a bit) and near zero interest rates (mostly). They've gone heavily in to debt - because they profit on what they pump and sell. We're probably heading to a mini-S&L-like melt-down of frackers in the next few years with most going out of business. The Saudi are happy to flood the market with oil in the short term to kick the Frackers out of the market and punish the Russians and Iranians.

Stable $40-$50 oil would have been good for all of us --- but, this $30 oil is likely to be a short-term windfall. Enjoy it now. Talk to me in 24 months.........
 
Saudi Arabia apparently needs $106/barrel to break even. Kuwait is the closest to breaking even at $45/barrel, followed by Qatar. A lot of the other countries need $80/barrel. Though another article says Iran needs closer to $130/barrel.
When I say break even I'm not referring to a fiscal break even price for the country which is what you're talking about and the article you linked refers. I'm talking about what it costs them to produce a barrel of oil and that figure is something under 10 dollars/barrel. So if oil is above 10/barrel they're above break even and making money, that's what I mean. It's why I refer to the Saudis putting some of these "new" or smaller oil companies out of business where it can be costly to pull oil out of the ground with some of these newer methods and for them pulling oil out of the ground can cost 50-60 bucks a barrel.

As far as fiscal break even for the country yes they need to have oil much higher and that number could be around 100/barrel as your article says. I don't pay attention to that part of it as much to know. That's part of the reason they're exploring an IPO of Saudi Aramco... so they can raise money for the country's fiscal needs. Dubai seems like the only one over there that has tried to diversify their economy away from sole reliance on oil by making itself more of a business and tourist hub.
 
In the short run - yeah, feel great at the pump. And, certainly no one should feel sorry for the oil companies. But, it's never so clear cut as it seems.

US frackers have had a decade windfall based on new technology (a bit) and near zero interest rates (mostly). They've gone heavily in to debt - because they profit on what they pump and sell. We're probably heading to a mini-S&L-like melt-down of frackers in the next few years with most going out of business. The Saudi are happy to flood the market with oil in the short term to kick the Frackers out of the market and punish the Russians and Iranians.

Stable $40-$50 oil would have been good for all of us --- but, this $30 oil is likely to be a short-term windfall. Enjoy it now. Talk to me in 24 months.........
I think this massive drop in oil is short term as well but what does short term mean that I don't know. A few years maybe, a little more or a little less could be. I don't know. But part of the issue is oversupply not just weakened demand and I can't see the Saudi's pumping oil at this rate forever without it hurting them as well. Judging from the article above and the possible IPO of Saudi Aramco it's affecting them to a degree already. Also don't know that it will go back to those crazy peaks any time soon but maybe around 50-70 a barrel a handful of years down the line.
 
I give you the same warning about this that I have given, consistently, for years.

We have problems now with Islamic radicalization. Imagine, if you will, the potential for serious trouble when they're all starving because their oil-based economies have gone to shit.

Be careful what you wish for. The whole notion of "independence from foreign oil" only works if the oil-producing economies have alternative methods for putting food in their peoples' mouths.
It'd actually be an opportunity. But we'd screw it up like we always do.

The Chinese would fall all over themselves providing massive aid packages to any struggling countries. With virtually no strings attached. Meanwhile, the U.S. would be slow to get something similar going, aid-wise, and would attach lots of condescending conditions to any aid package.
 
I give you the same warning about this that I have given, consistently, for years.

We have problems now with Islamic radicalization. Imagine, if you will, the potential for serious trouble when they're all starving because their oil-based economies have gone to shit.

Be careful what you wish for. The whole notion of "independence from foreign oil" only works if the oil-producing economies have alternative methods for putting food in their peoples' mouths.
I disagree. Once the oil money runs out, they are no more dangerous than radical Africans. Boko Haram and Al Shabbab are big problems if you live in Nigeria and East Africa. They are somewhat of a problem in Europe by the secondary effect of spurring migrant waves. In the US - no one even knows who they are. It takes money to plan and execute these kinds of things, and oil money is whats keeping it going.

I would much rather have a world where Islamic fundamentalist are mostly contained to fighting among themselves and with other Muslims because they cant afford to go further afield, than the world where Saudi Arabia (and Saudi Arabians) have a ton of money to spread around.
This is very bad for America. USA actually exports oil now so this will costs many Americans jobs. It also leads to deflation which hurts pricing in other sectors.
Also it's not like Americans are spending the money on goods. Just look at Macy's stock or gap or any retailer not named Amazon.
Also Why you may not care about the stock market the low oil prices have severely impacted the corporate bond markets especially the High yield market. Companies with zero ties to oil can't fund in this environment or are forced to fund at punitive rates. This hurts normal people and will lead to defaults in non energy companies and cost jobs.
Americans are saving there money. Which is good. They are also spending alot of it on Amazon - which is a retailer. The fact that brick and mortar are failing is a consequence of increasingly easy online shopping.

In the long term cheaper energy is good for regular people. Better than a grwoing housing Yes - its gonna hurt an economy that was overly invested in energy. Thats life. Just like cheaper housing is better for regular people than more expensive housing - the bubble wasnt good for ordinary people.

Incidentally, GM is introducing an all electric that gets 200 miles per charge and costs under $30,000 after the tax rebate. 200 miles really starts to reduce range anxiety, at a cost that isnt luxury. I dont know if its a game changer, but its at worst a big step towards mass adoption of electric vehicles. I suspect that within 15 years no one will really be making non-electric passenger vehicles.
 
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It'd actually be an opportunity. But we'd screw it up like we always do.

The Chinese would fall all over themselves providing massive aid packages to any struggling countries. With virtually no strings attached. Meanwhile, the U.S. would be slow to get something similar going, aid-wise, and would attach lots of condescending conditions to any aid package.
The Chinese put WAY more strings on their aid packages - but they are different than our strings. But you know what - let them. They can take all of the US dollars they have stacked up in the past 30 years being our factory floor and use it to prop up the third world.
 
From link:

Drilling a Deep Hole
The specter of bankruptcy is looming closer for a significant chunk of the U.S. oil industry. Crude-oil prices plunged more than 5% yesterday to trade near $30 a barrel and continued to slide this morning as traders built up short positions in the midst of crumbling confidence in the Chinese economy and a growing global glut. Meanwhile, Nigeria said today that some OPEC members are pushing for an emergency meeting. Three major investment banks now expect the price of oil to dip into $20 territory in short order as a result of China’s slowdown, the U.S. dollar’s appreciation and the fact that drillers won’t quit pumping. Energy companies that took on huge debt loads to finance their slice of the U.S. drilling boom have no choice but to keep pumping in order to generate revenue to service their debt. But as they do, they are drilling themselves into a deeper hole.
 
From link:

Drilling a Deep Hole
The specter of bankruptcy is looming closer for a significant chunk of the U.S. oil industry. Crude-oil prices plunged more than 5% yesterday to trade near $30 a barrel and continued to slide this morning as traders built up short positions in the midst of crumbling confidence in the Chinese economy and a growing global glut. Meanwhile, Nigeria said today that some OPEC members are pushing for an emergency meeting. Three major investment banks now expect the price of oil to dip into $20 territory in short order as a result of China’s slowdown, the U.S. dollar’s appreciation and the fact that drillers won’t quit pumping. Energy companies that took on huge debt loads to finance their slice of the U.S. drilling boom have no choice but to keep pumping in order to generate revenue to service their debt. But as they do, they are drilling themselves into a deeper hole.
The same analysis goes for OPEC nations. None of them have a real incentive to back off, since I think its relatively easy to get those shale oil wells back and running again, I think. In other words, if they cut production, raise prices, they will lose market share as American wells come back online.
 
i was told by a commodities trader once that the gas price tends to move with the WTI. WTI was at it's peak in 2008-2009 timeframe at $140 per barrel. if i remember correctly, i think we paid $4 per gallon then. so, if it's $30 per barrel, shouldn't the gas be at 86 cents? the WTI has been sub $50 for nearly 6 months now. at $40 average, it should be around $1.15 per gallon.

i just paid $1.70 per yesterday. i am not complaining, but i think it's a myth that the gas price moves relative to cost of crude.

and agree with others. artificial price suppression has negative repercussions to the american macro economics.

We did this already.

The cost of turning oil into gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene and plastic doesn't really change. 40 bucks a barrel is 95 cents a gallon. Suggesting that retail gasoline prices should be $1.15 means that you have an expectation that all costs associated with turning oil into gasoline, inclusive of profit, is 20 cents a gallon.

That's... ya know... wrong.
 
Americans are saving there money. Which is good. They are also spending alot of it on Amazon - which is a retailer. The fact that brick and mortar are failing is a consequence of increasingly easy online shopping.

In the long term cheaper energy is good for regular people. Better than a grwoing housing Yes - its gonna hurt an economy that was overly invested in energy. Thats life. Just like cheaper housing is better for regular people than more expensive housing - the bubble wasnt good for ordinary people.

Incidentally, GM is introducing an all electric that gets 200 miles per charge and costs under $30,000 after the tax rebate. 200 miles really starts to reduce range anxiety, at a cost that isnt luxury. I dont know if its a game changer, but its at worst a big step towards mass adoption of electric vehicles. I suspect that within 15 years no one will really be making non-electric passenger vehicles.
Americans maybe saving money but I wonder just how much and how many. I think the savings rate has increased after the great recession but then I saw an article a week or two ago where a survey from bankrate said 60% of couldn't handle an unexpected $500 dollar bill and I was a little surprised that the percentage was that high.

If the job numbers continue to be good then cheap oil is a good thing. But job numbers are a little bit of a lagging indicator. If the job numbers weaken then counterinuitively cheap oil might not be the best thing because it's somewhat of a sign of weaker demand meaning slowing economy. Auto sales have been strong but I always wonder how much of that is a sign of all the newer financing options available these days that weren't as ubiquitous in the past.
 
Americans maybe saving money but I wonder just how much and how many. I think the savings rate has increased after the great recession but then I saw an article a week or two ago where a survey from bankrate said 60% of couldn't handle an unexpected $500 dollar bill and I was a little surprised that the percentage was that high.

If the job numbers continue to be good then cheap oil is a good thing. But job numbers are a little bit of a lagging indicator. If the job numbers weaken then counterinuitively cheap oil might not be the best thing because it's somewhat of a sign of weaker demand meaning slowing economy. Auto sales have been strong but I always wonder how much of that is a sign of all the newer financing options available these days that weren't as ubiquitous in the past.

Oil is at its lowest level since Dec 2003. It will continue to be volatile but, generally, lower oil prices are good for America. Chavez was able to keep his terrible system going almost completely because of the rapid rise in oil prices before his died. PDVSA production continuously dropped as he replaced capable oil men with political cronies. He took from the rich and gave to the poor (after taking a sizable cut himself). Large productive farms were ruined, price controls removed any incentive to produce creating shortages of basics, and, who would believe it, the economy has collapsed. Long live the revolution!!!
 
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