OT: "A Date Which Will Live in Infamy"

[Kbee3]

I know I have mentioned this before.. but my Dad signed up for the Marines at 16 years old before Pearl Harbor, as we were ramping up for war (in Europe, I assume). He told some stories about guys and drinking a few celebrities.. Eddie Albert (Green Acres guy who saved many of his fellow Marines on Tarawa)... a household name celeb that he called a cowardly officer who he got busted in rank for punching out (cannot verify who but you'd be surprised)... Anne Miller who he got to Jitterbug with.. and someone who opened his house in California to Marines.. I forget who.. maybe Edward Arnold? .. Drinking with MOH winner Johnny Basilone... those were the only stories we'd get and.. being kids.. were always moving on to the next thing rather quickly.

He'd have a list of 5 beach landings he'd mention.. like a resume of companies you worked at. It is so long ago I forget the order... but among them were Guam, Bougainville, Tarawa, Saipan, Tinian... I think that's it.. but he was given some "rest" on Saipan where his duty became driving supplies from beach head port to the airstrip and during one of these trips a "Jap" jumped out into the road and threw a grenade and sent him and his truck and supplies of aircraft tires over the ledge here he laid half-blown up until the next truck found him.

That's the how he got injured and had a metal plate in his head and leg story. Then when a TV show or movie showed war souvenirs his story as to why he had none to speak of was mentioned... while recovering at the beachhead base and waiting for a hospital ship troop transport to take him home.. his stuff got loaded on the ship but he was in such bad shape they kept him immobile and would wait for the next one (they expected he'd die). That ship that he was supposed to be on.. got sunk.

When we was very old and battling parkinsons, an old war movie came on the TV. For years my mom would insist we change the channel is my dad was around. He had night terrors occasionally of which we kids were largely unaware... the scene was of a "dirty jap" playing dead on the beach and then getting up and shooting some Marines in the back. So I jokingly asked him if that ever happened to him and he answered:

"Well, sometimes you had to play dead. They'd walk over you. There was a lot of back and forth."

Chilling.

The greatest generation, indeed. From the Great Depression to securing the future for American Freedom and Democracy... if we can keep it.

I've heard many stories from WWII vets and your father's is one of the best. And he was one of the lucky ones. Storming those beaches you mentioned was mostly a losing bet....especially for the first wave. The debt we owe those guys can never be repaid.
My father just got shot in the leg during the Battle Of The Bulge and got a Purple Heart. And never talked about the war. His brother was in that outfit in A Bridge Too Far that parachuted into the midst of a panzer outfit, was surrounded, captured, and spent the rest of the war in a p-o-w camp. Uncle Harry was always out there parading on Veterans' Day.
The trick to getting some of the WWII vets to talk was to hang at the VFW, befriend them, and buy them shots.
BTW, that trick also worked for a couple of guys I knew who were in Desert Storm. It also helps if you're a likeable guy like me.

 

[PiscatawayMike]

Here's a link to the thread:

OT: War Stories

Thank you for linking the thread. I've added to it.

 

[Kbee3]

Yamamoto knew that it couldn't happen. He was hoping that the Navy would have their carriers there. Without them we would have been defenseless all the way to the Golden Gate.
On that day the US had only three carriers in the Pacific.
Lexington was on it's way to Midway to deliver planes. Some of it's planes actually arrived back at Pearl during the attack.
Enterprise was returning from Wake Island after doing the same.
Saratoga was in San Diego.

How the Navy's most important ships avoided destruction at Pearl Harbor

The attack on Pearl Harbor was a massive blow to the US Navy, destroying planes, sinking ships, and killing sailors. But not all was lost.

www.businessinsider.com

I read in several places that Yamamoto had been to the U.S. and had seen the ship-building and industrial sites around this big country at that time. He was very impressed and knew Japan could not win a war against America. But he was unable to convince his superiors...some of whom were dead set on war with the U.S.

 

[colbert17]

Yamamoto attended Harvard

 

[mdk01]

Yamamoto attended Harvard

Shhh.... There will be demonstrations celebrating Pearl Harbor.

 

[Kbee3]

Yamamoto attended Harvard

And i'm guessing Tojo attended Liberty University.

 

[ashokan]

Storming those beaches you mentioned was mostly a losing bet....especially for the first wave. The debt we owe those guys can never be repaid.

Just the other say I found a Taylor Swift song about her Lt Col Marine grandfather who landed on Pacific Island beaches. She knew some stories from her father. As she wrote the song during pandemic, she tied-in doctors/nurses helplessly watching people die as her gramps did on the beaches. The standard Swifties didn't quite take to the song in the usual massive way but military and doctors/nurses liked it a lot. Recorded in upstate Hudson Valley

This Taylor Swift Song Is a Tribute to Her Marine Grandfather's Service at Guadalcanal

Written during the early days of the COVID-19 pandemic, "Epiphany" explores the similar emotions experienced by soldiers during war and health-care workers on the front lines of the worst health emergency they have ever seen.

www.military.com

 

[RU Diesel07110]

I know I have mentioned this before.. but my Dad signed up for the Marines at 16 years old before Pearl Harbor, as we were ramping up for war (in Europe, I assume). He told some stories about guys and drinking a few celebrities.. Eddie Albert (Green Acres guy who saved many of his fellow Marines on Tarawa)... a household name celeb that he called a cowardly officer who he got busted in rank for punching out (cannot verify who but you'd be surprised)... Anne Miller who he got to Jitterbug with.. and someone who opened his house in California to Marines.. I forget who.. maybe Edward Arnold? .. Drinking with MOH winner Johnny Basilone... those were the only stories we'd get and.. being kids.. were always moving on to the next thing rather quickly.

He'd have a list of 5 beach landings he'd mention.. like a resume of companies you worked at. It is so long ago I forget the order... but among them were Guam, Bougainville, Tarawa, Saipan, Tinian... I think that's it.. but he was given some "rest" on Saipan where his duty became driving supplies from beach head port to the airstrip and during one of these trips a "Jap" jumped out into the road and threw a grenade and sent him and his truck and supplies of aircraft tires over the ledge here he laid half-blown up until the next truck found him.

That's the how he got injured and had a metal plate in his head and leg story. Then when a TV show or movie showed war souvenirs his story as to why he had none to speak of was mentioned... while recovering at the beachhead base and waiting for a hospital ship troop transport to take him home.. his stuff got loaded on the ship but he was in such bad shape they kept him immobile and would wait for the next one (they expected he'd die). That ship that he was supposed to be on.. got sunk.

When we was very old and battling parkinsons, an old war movie came on the TV. For years my mom would insist we change the channel is my dad was around. He had night terrors occasionally of which we kids were largely unaware... the scene was of a "dirty jap" playing dead on the beach and then getting up and shooting some Marines in the back. So I jokingly asked him if that ever happened to him and he answered:

"Well, sometimes you had to play dead. They'd walk over you. There was a lot of back and forth."

Chilling.

The greatest generation, indeed. From the Great Depression to securing the future for American Freedom and Democracy... if we can keep it.

My father was on a lot of those islands we have a booklet ‘Welcome to the Marianna’s ‘. Atomic bomb was stored on tinian.

 

[colbert17]

And i'm guessing Tojo attended Liberty University.

My point being that Yamamoto was well aware of what a formidable enemy the U.S. would be if there was a war.

 

[Kbee3]

My point being that Yamamoto was well aware of what a formidable enemy the U.S. would be if there was a war.

Yeah....I got your point. Thanks. It's a good one.
I honestly didn't know that Yamamoto went to Harvard. I've just read that he had been to this country and knew all about its industrial and ship-building capacity. And that he knew that Japan had no chance against the U.S.

 

[RUTGERS95]

just saw my 100yr old grandfather this week, signed up on his 18th bday and fought with Patton the entire war. The war troubled him his entire life, especially as they got into Germany and the things needed to be done to win.

of note and of particular interest to this thread. Yesterday would have been the last day any banging or sounds came from the hull of the Arizona and it's presumed that by Jan 1, all those trapped were dead

never forget..............Merica!!!!!!!!

 

[Kbee3]

I've read so much about how the U.S. leadership knew that war with Japan was on the horizon and inevitable. Yet I've never understood how they could have been caught with their pants down (and their planes lined up) in Hawaii and the Philippines. I've also never understood how MacArthur's snoozing never tarnished his image.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I've read so much about how the U.S. leadership knew that war with Japan was on the horizon and inevitable. Yet I've never understood how they could have been caught with their pants down (and their planes lined up) in Hawaii and the Philippines. I've also never understood how MacArthur's snoozing never tarnished his image.

or his refusal to attack japanese airfields prior disobeying orders

the attack on pearl was not expected due to logistics and more. saboteurs at Pearl were a bigger concern

 

[ashokan]

My father was on a lot of those islands we have a booklet ‘Welcome to the Marianna’s ‘. Atomic bomb was stored on tinian.

Tinian in the news

To counter China, US revamps airbase that launched nuclear bombings of Japan

Beijing’s growing influence in the Pacific is spurring the recovery of a slew of abandoned runways at Tinian island airfield.

www.scmp.com

 

[RU to the Core]

War of the pacific theater in Texas is really well done. It’s in fredricksburg and large and really well done. Gives a timeline type walk through the museum so you can really feel the mood at the time. They have full size planes and other artifacts there. Musemes like this are important so generations far removed don’t forget.

 

[mdk01]

My point being that Yamamoto was well aware of what a formidable enemy the U.S. would be if there was a war.

A quote attributed to Yamamoto right after Pearl Harbor, knowing the carriers weren't there was:

"I am afraid that all I have done is awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I've read so much about how the U.S. leadership knew that war with Japan was on the horizon and inevitable. Yet I've never understood how they could have been caught with their pants down (and their planes lined up) in Hawaii and the Philippines. I've also never understood how MacArthur's snoozing never tarnished his image.

The lined up part is easily explained.. they fear local Japanese sabotage so they put all the planes together in middle or runway to more easily watch them. Pair that with eh rounding up of Japanese Americans, even in the states, can you can see the fear was real, if not the threat.

 

[mdk01]

I've read so much about how the U.S. leadership knew that war with Japan was on the horizon and inevitable. Yet I've never understood how they could have been caught with their pants down (and their planes lined up) in Hawaii and the Philippines. I've also never understood how MacArthur's snoozing never tarnished his image.

The Phillipines was considered the likely target. Pearl Harbor was a surprise.

 

[ashokan]

Misremembering Pearl Harbor

Victor Davis Hanson American Greatness Most Americans once were mostly in agreement about what happened on December 7, 1941, 80 years ago this year. But not so much now, given either the neglect of America’s past in the schools or woke revisionism at odds with the truth. The Pacific war that...

victorhanson.com

 

[Kbee3]

Misremembering Pearl Harbor

Victor Davis Hanson American Greatness Most Americans once were mostly in agreement about what happened on December 7, 1941, 80 years ago this year. But not so much now, given either the neglect of America’s past in the schools or woke revisionism at odds with the truth. The Pacific war that...

victorhanson.com

Sorry, I don't read chit from The National Review or other off-the-wall right wing nonsense.

 

[ashokan]

Sorry, I don't read chit from The National Review or other off-the-wall right wing nonsense.

I see - well he spent a lot of space supporting a Dem president from back in the day (when they could still tell boys from girls.)

 

[ashokan]

An alternative view of Pearl from Col Macgregor.

He said the warships had been conducting a simulated war exercise based of Japanese ships.
Macgregor said that the US ships usually went back to their permanent bases after the exercises but Roosevelt kept the ships at Pearl. Navy Admirals objected and actually told FDR that the ships could be sitting ducks at Pearl (and US had enacted an embargo against Japan). The fleet commander was "apoplectic."


New vid about 2.00 in

 

[RUTGERS95]

Sorry, I don't read chit from The National Review or other off-the-wall right wing nonsense.

do you have kids in school today?

 

[colbert17]

Kbee you surprise me. You might not agree with VDH's views on current politics but he is one of the greatest American historians of all time. You should read the article . It's history and analysis. Nothing political about it.

 

[mdk01]

Sorry, I don't read chit from The National Review or other off-the-wall right wing nonsense.

I guess you're cancelling the section of the article that shoots down the theory that FDR lured Japan into attacking. So I guess FDR WAS responsible and the theory that he was not is right wing nonsense,

 

[MADHAT1]

Call the reason for Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor anything you like and blame America not giving Japan what they wanted if you want to blame America for Japan starting a war with the USA.
FDR was helping friendly nations in their fight against ajaapan and Germany by refusing to do business with those nations.
Japan needed the material the US could supply in the effort to take over China and all of the Far East, while driving American allies like Britain and France out the the territories they controled.
FDR and Congress refused to help Japan's fight against countries friendly to America
by selling them what they needed to help defeat France. England and China .
What America did was stand by it's friends instead of making a profit by selling Japan what it despertaly needed to take over the far east.
Then get strong enough to look at the USA as a possible aquisition if Germany took control of Europe.
Too many people try to blame America for Japan's attacking Pearl Harbor and the Philippines American bases.
But the truth is FDR did what was nessary to support America's friends and deserves no blame whatsoever .
He tried to keep America out of the war , but also made sure the USA didn't help Japan on its war aainst Countries thatAmerica considered friends.

I'm tired of the America brought WW2 on itself BS.
America was attacked for not helpng a country fight America's friends .

 

[mdk01]

I'm tired of the America brought WW2 on itself BS.
America was attacked for not helpng a country fight America's friends .

That's pretty much what VDH said but according to Kbee that's off the wall right wing nonsense.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I've read so much about how the U.S. leadership knew that war with Japan was on the horizon and inevitable. Yet I've never understood how they could have been caught with their pants down (and their planes lined up) in Hawaii and the Philippines.

I think part of that was the US military still hadn't accepted that the aircraft carrier was the future and the battleship was outdated tech. They did not understand about the ability to project power via an aircraft carrier task force, so couldn't comprehend that the Japanese could essentially move floating airfields close to Hawaii and bomb the island.

 

[ashokan]

That's pretty much what VDH said but according to Kbee that's off the wall right wing nonsense.

VDH is an independent but was a Dem up until a few years ago. His farming family (3 generations) are all Dems and hate the opposition. VDH's father was a bomber pilot who flew 40 missions over Japan. Hanson says that the missions were so far and long that the crew was made to take Benzedrine. Hanson said that when the war was over it took his father 2 years to settle down his nervous system

 

[Kbee3]

I guess you're cancelling the section of the article that shoots down the theory that FDR lured Japan into attacking. So I guess FDR WAS responsible and the theory that he was not is right wing nonsense,

So much for your guessing. I don't think FDR lured Japan. Or that he WAS responsible for Pearl Harbor. But I have had my fill of right-wing nonsense. And if I wanna read more about WWII and its causes I won't be consulting The National Review or any of its reactionary contributors.......even if there are parts of their story that are accurate.
BTW, there was a time back when I was working towards my degree in Political Science/History at Rutgers when I was actually a subscriber to that magazine. I've gotten better perspectives to read since then.
Thank you, RU.

 

[Kbee3]

I think part of that was the US military still hadn't accepted that the aircraft carrier was the future and the battleship was outdated tech. They did not understand about the ability to project power via an aircraft carrier task force, so couldn't comprehend that the Japanese could essentially move floating airfields close to Hawaii and bomb the island.

I've heard that explanation. And I do think there's a bit of truth to it.
However, leadership in America was pretty much aware that conflict with the Japanese Empire was an inevitability. And that the Philippines, Midway, and Pearl Harbor were obvious first targets. And they also should have known that Japan had a history of attacking other countries without advance notice. Why they weren't better prepared for what came is on the military leadership.
Literally caught with their pants down.

 

[RUTGERS95]

Japan was wrong, we were right, LeMay won the war

Merica!

 

[RUforester72]

Excellent book I'm reading right now...."Ghosts of Honolulu: a Japanese spy, a Japanese, American spy hunter, and the untold story of Pearl Harbor" by Mark Harmon and Leon Carroll Jr. Japanese had a growing spy network in Hawaii for many years prior to bombing us.

 

[Kbee3]

I recommend Malcolm Gladwell's The Bomber Mafia.

 

[Kbee3]

Japan was wrong, we were right, LeMay won the war

Merica!

Stop showing off that Rutgers education.