OT: Found: Deep Water Grave of 1000+ Australian WWII POWs

[ashokan]

I know a lot of folks here like WWII stuff.

Today I read a bunch of current and past articles article about a recently rediscovered Japanese wreck - the Montevideo Maru - it was carrying over 1000 POWs (mostly Australian) and was sunk by a US sub (USS Sturgeon) after stalking it for awhile in 1942.

The ship was found this month in the South China Sea in water deeper than the Titanic (1300m). The casualties stand as Australia's worst maritime disaster. The USS Sturgeon survived the war. It also sank a Japanese troop ship (Toyama Maru) carrying 6000 in 1944.

In 2003 the only known survivor of the event was a Japanese man ( Yoshiaki Yamaji) who gave an interview

Yamaji said while the bulk of prisoners were caught in the hold, some had been traveling on deck to manage the ship’s firewood. When the ship started to sink he heard the "death cries" of the men caught in the hold. Around 100 crew got away in lifeboats. Some prisoners ended-up in the water watching the ship sink

Yamaji said "There were more POWs in the water than crew members. The POWs were holding pieces of wood and using bigger pieces as rafts. They were in groups of 20 to 30 people, probably 100 people in all. They were singing songs. I was particularly impressed when they began singing Auld Lang Syne as a tribute to their dead colleagues. Watching that, I learnt that Australians have big hearts."

Reports are that the POWs in the water never survived. The Japanese crew made it to shore where rebels killed most of them

Wreck of ship that sank with hundreds of Australians discovered deeper than Titanic

Hundreds of Australians were killed when the Montevideo Maru sank during World War II, with its location remaining a mystery — until now.

www.abc.net.au

Death cries in a ‘sea of indifference’

*An adaption and update of an article first written by Max Uechtritz in 2017. Their end is ghastly. A thousand Australians screaming as oil smothers and scalds them, seawater gushes into their lung…

maxmoments.blog

USS Sturgeon and Toyama Maru

Yoshiaki Yamaji

Australian Wallaby Rugby Star - Mac Ramsay - who went down with the ship

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Sadly, I wonder what torture awaited them in a Japanese prison camp and what the survivability of that would be.

google result:

What was the survival rate of Japanese POW?

A look at the historical facts. During the Second World War, 27% of the prisoners of war held by the Japanese did not survive incarceration. This percentage of more than one in four is often unfavorably compared against a corresponding ratio of around 4% within the German POW camps.Sep 5, 2022

 

[ashokan]

The part that impressed me was a bunch of young dudes getting blown-up and watching their mates die while floating on pieces of wood and yet singing Auld Lang Syne.

This was not a Low-T crowd

 

[colbert17]

I went to the River Kwai and Hellfire Pass a few weeks ago. The conditions that POWs had to endure at the hands of the Japanese were brutal.

 

[ecojew]

I went to the River Kwai and Hellfire Pass a few weeks ago. The conditions that POWs had to endure at the hands of the Japanese were brutal.

I was there last October and totally agree with you. There are many other WW II sites in Southeast Asia that would be of interest to people, like myself, whose parents were the WW II generation. Corregidor in Manila Bay is one; the memorial to those who perished in the Sandakan Death March in the Malaysian state of Sabah on the north coast of Borneo is another.

I've often wished that Singapore had done more to preserve the POW camp at Changi where 1000s of colonial troops (Brits, Dutch, Aussies, Kiwis, and others) were kept in brutal conditions. Shogun author James Clavell's intense novel "King Rat" conveys that brutality very effectively, while simultaneously illustrating the prisoners' strong will to survive.

 

[colbert17]

I was there last October and totally agree with you. There are many other WW II sites in Southeast Asia that would be of interest to people, like myself, whose parents were the WW II generation. Corregidor in Manila Bay is one; the memorial to those who perished in the Sandakan Death March in the Malaysian state of Sabah on the north coast of Borneo is another.

I've often wished that Singapore had done more to preserve the POW camp at Changi where 1000s of colonial troops (Brits, Dutch, Aussies, Kiwis, and others) were kept in brutal conditions. Shogun author James Clavell's intense novel "King Rat" conveys that brutality very effectively, while simultaneously illustrating the prisoners' strong will to survive.

Corregidor is on my list of places I want to go to. A few years ago I was in Sandakan on a trip to see the orangutans. Did not know that there was a POW site there.

 

[ashokan]

I went to the River Kwai and Hellfire Pass a few weeks ago. The conditions that POWs had to endure at the hands of the Japanese were brutal.

I don't know enough about old Japanese military culture to understand where the brutality came from. To this day China is still mad that there was no Nuremberg type event to investigate and punish Japanese war crimes in China. Things like Nanking (officially denied by Japan in 1990) and Unit 731 still constitute strong grudges. Of course Mao and Co had no Nuremberg either that I'm aware of.

Now my main exposure to Japanese culture comes via young Americans fascinated by cute (every American girl knows Kuwaii) anime characters, Lolita fashion and cars. Quite a pivot.

 

[ecojew]

Corregidor is on my list of places I want to go to. A few years ago I was in Sandakan on a trip to see the orangutans. Did not know that there was a POW site there.

Corregidor is definitely worth the day trip. I regret that I didn't also have time to go along the Bataan Death March route. If you are in the Manila area, I recommend visiting the US military cemetery there. With 25,000 fallen soldiers, it is the largest US military cemetery anywhere in the world.

I also did not know about Sandakan and, like you, was there to visit the orangutans.

On a different trip, in 2010, I visited a UN cemetery in Busan, South Korea, where there were only a few US soldiers interred, amidst thousands of South Koreans, Turks, Brits, and others. Since we had the greatest number of foreign troops engaged in the Korean War, I wondered how this could be. So I asked at the museum on the site and was told that, after WW II, the US policy changed and all US troops who died fighting abroad were repatriated to the US for burial. The 6 or so there in Busan had passed away much later and had requested burial there.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I don't know enough about old Japanese military culture to understand where the brutality came from. To this day China is still mad that there was no Nuremberg type event to investigate and punish Japanese war crimes in China. Things like Nanking (officially denied by Japan in 1990) and Unit 731 still constitute strong grudges. Of course Mao and Co had no Nuremberg either that I'm aware of.

Now my main exposure to Japanese culture comes via young Americans fascinated by cute (every American girl knows Kuwaii) anime characters, Lolita fashion and cars. Quite a pivot.

McCarthur had a lot of blood on his hands.

 

[ashokan]

McCarthur had a lot of blood on his hands.

Cars, baseball and military history are things I should have been into but never really was.I cant say a lot about the general but he always seemed more heat than light. "I shall return" and the famous retirement speech seem to be his substance (along with corncob pipes, sunglasses).

I know he wrecked the Army in Korea, and then left as the war was about to collapse until Matthew Ridgway came to save the Army. He flipped the script and started fighting offensively and not defensively as they were

VDH writes about Ridgway in "Savior Generals." He writes that there are some generals that politicians and other military dont quite like but are brought in when the messes are big and all seems lost. These generals then save the day even though they dont win the war necessarily.

 

[e5fdny]

The part that impressed me was a bunch of young dudes getting blown-up and watching their mates die while floating on pieces of wood and yet singing Auld Lang Syne.

This was not a Low-T crowd

Considering the lineage, I’m not surprised.

 

[RU to the Core]

just got back from the pacific war museum in Fredricksburg Texas. Power stuff. Have the shell casing of a Fatman atomic bomb there. Really large and extensive museum for being for that specific front of the war.

 

[Source]

Cars, baseball and military history are things I should have been into but never really was.I cant say a lot about the general but he always seemed more heat than light. "I shall return" and the famous retirement speech seem to be his substance (along with corncob pipes, sunglasses).

I know he wrecked the Army in Korea, and then left as the war was about to collapse until Matthew Ridgway came to save the Army. He flipped the script and started fighting offensively and not defensively as they were

VDH writes about Ridgway in "Savior Generals." He writes that there are some generals that politicians and other military dont quite like but are brought in when the messes are big and all seems lost. These generals then save the day even though they dont win the war necessarily.

Rutgers played at West Point on October 11, 1913 and got shut out 29-0. The undergraduate football manager who was just starting his West Point career was Matthew Ridgway. During his military career, he became Army Chief of Staff. Future four star general James Van Fleet played in the Rutgers-Army game the year before when he became lifelong friends with Rutgers player/ future coach/A.D. Harry Rockafeller. They were together in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive near the end of WWI. After WWII, Van Fleet would visit Rockafeller at Rutgers and inspect the Rutgers R.O.T.C. cadets.

But during the Korean conflict President Harry Truman replaced Douglas MacArthur with Matthew Ridgway as Supreme Commander, Van Fleet was promoted to Ridgway’s spot. Truman later said Van Fleet was, “The greatest general we ever had. I sent him to Greece and he won the war. I sent him to Korea and he won the war.” Van Fleet died in 1992 at the age of 100½.

 

[newell138]

I don't know enough about old Japanese military culture to understand where the brutality came from. To this day China is still mad that there was no Nuremberg type event to investigate and punish Japanese war crimes in China. Things like Nanking (officially denied by Japan in 1990) and Unit 731 still constitute strong grudges. Of course Mao and Co had no Nuremberg either that I'm aware of.

Now my main exposure to Japanese culture comes via young Americans fascinated by cute (every American girl knows Kuwaii) anime characters, Lolita fashion and cars. Quite a pivot.

A good read on the whole Japanese mindset during that time is “Killing The Rising Sun” by Bill O’Reilly.

 

[brgRC90]

Sadly, I wonder what torture awaited them in a Japanese prison camp and what the survivability of that would be.

google result:

What was the survival rate of Japanese POW?

A look at the historical facts. During the Second World War, 27% of the prisoners of war held by the Japanese did not survive incarceration. This percentage of more than one in four is often unfavorably compared against a corresponding ratio of around 4% within the German POW camps.Sep 5, 2022

No idea where that number about Germany comes from. I've read that of 4.5 million Soviet POWs taken by the Germans fewer than a million returned home. They treated POWs terribly.

 

[colbert17]

No idea where that number about Germany comes from. I've read that of 4.5 million Soviet POWs taken by the Germans fewer than a million returned home. They treated POWs terribly.

You're absolutely correct about their treatment of Soviet prisoners as they were considered sub human. Not many Soviet prisoners made it home after the war and many who did were killed by Stalin as traitors.
On the other hand other Allied prisoners (U.S., U.K. France) had a very high survivability rate in German camps.

 

[e5fdny]

Rutgers played at West Point on October 11, 1913 and got shut out 29-0. The undergraduate football manager who was just starting his West Point career was Matthew Ridgway. During his military career, he became Army Chief of Staff. Future four star general James Van Fleet played in the Rutgers-Army game the year before when he became lifelong friends with Rutgers player/ future coach/A.D. Harry Rockefeller. They were together in the Meuse-Argonne Offensive near the end of WWI. After WWII, Van Fleet would visit Rockefeller at Rutgers and inspect the Rutgers R.O.T.C. cadets.

But during the Korean conflict President Harry Truman replaced Douglas MacArthur with Matthew Ridgway as Supreme Commander, Van Fleet was promoted to Ridgway’s spot. Truman later said Van Fleet was, “The greatest general we ever had. I sent him to Greece and he won the war. I sent him to Korea and he won the war.” Van Fleet died in 1992 at the age of 100½.

Different guy (and spelling) but also a Loyal Son…

Harry Rockafeller - Recipient -

valor.militarytimes.com

Harry J. Rockafeller, II (D) | Asbury Park High School Hall of Fame

Harry J. Rockafeller, II (D) graduated from Asbury Park High School in 1934, and was inducted to the Asbury Park High School Hall of Fame in 2021.

www.aphshalloffame.com

MAJOR GENERAL HARRY ROCKAFELLER : Wall Township, NJ — Fisher Sculpture

www.fishersculpture.com

 

[ashokan]

But during the Korean conflict President Harry Truman replaced Douglas MacArthur with Matthew Ridgway as Supreme Commander, Van Fleet was promoted to Ridgway’s spot. Truman later said Van Fleet was, “The greatest general we ever had. I sent him to Greece and he won the war. I sent him to Korea and he won the war.” Van Fleet died in 1992 at the age of 100½.

The way Victor Davis Hanson tells it, the "savior generals" don't "win" the wars per se - they save the wars at moments of looming critical defeas - then others can win the wars after saving them

The savior generals are often resented because they aren't shy about expressing what they think of bad ideas (like sending paratroopers into Rome - an Idea Ridgway ridiculed as a disaster. It was scotched.).

Eisenhower resented Ridgway so much the actual events in Korea were "adjusted" in the recording. Eisenhower wrote a book about Korea and said that Van Fleet re-took Seoul when it was Ridgway who did it - Van Fleet hadn't even been appointed yet.

VDH says the savior generals are often "closeted" in that nobody likes them so they are kept in a closet. Then when there is a great need they are brought out of the closet where they succeed - just to be put back in the closet afterwards. Patton, LeMay and Sherman were other examples of savior generals.

Ridgway comments 37:30 in

 

[Source]

I corrected the above. His full name was Harry Joseph Rockafeller (not Rockefeller). Since your links say the WWII honoree was Harry J. Rockafeller, Jr., I'm wondering if that was the former Rutgers head coach's son?

Even as he went into retirement, Harry Rockafeller still had one last sports responsibility in the summer of 1961. He served as director of physical training for 61 volunteers who graduated August 25, 1961 and were sent to Columbia.

They were the very first class trained and ready to go into the newly created Peace Corps.

 

[Morrischiano]

I went to the River Kwai and Hellfire Pass a few weeks ago. The conditions that POWs had to endure at the hands of the Japanese were brutal.

I never knew how savage the Japanese were until I read the book “The Flyboys”. WW2 brutality was astounding.

 

[RUTGERS95]

I never knew how savage the Japanese were until I read the book “The Flyboys”. WW2 brutality was astounding.

did you grow up under a rock?

 

[colbert17]

I never knew how savage the Japanese were until I read the book “The Flyboys”. WW2 brutality was astounding.

I've seen estimates of 15 to 20 million civilian deaths in China alone

 

[Morrischiano]

did you grow up under a rock?

Yes.

 

[colbert17]

The way Victor Davis Hanson tells it, the "savior generals" don't "win" the wars per se - they save the wars at moments of looming critical defeas - then others can win the wars after saving them

The savior generals are often resented because they aren't shy about expressing what they think of bad ideas (like sending paratroopers into Rome - an Idea Ridgway ridiculed as a disaster. It was scotched.).

Eisenhower resented Ridgway so much the actual events in Korea were "adjusted" in the recording. Eisenhower wrote a book about Korea and said that Van Fleet re-took Seoul when it was Ridgway who did it - Van Fleet hadn't even been appointed yet.

VDH says the savior generals are often "closeted" in that nobody likes them so they are kept in a closet. Then when there is a great need they are brought out of the closet where they succeed - just to be put back in the closet afterwards. Patton, LeMay and Sherman were other examples of savior generals.

Ridgway comments 37:30 in

View embedded media

Example:

 

[colbert17]

Ike served under MacArthur in both Washington and the Philippines in the 1930's.
They weren't particularly fond of each other as illustrated by what they said about each other during the war.
MacArthur on Ike - "He was the best clerk I ever had."
Ike on MacArthur - "I studied dramatics under MacArthur for seven years."

 

[ashokan]

Example:

View embedded media

VDH said the best battle generals understood that they were facing killers who had to be killed first.
Patton was like that.
Ike was more of an administrator.
MacArthur was the aristocratic type with a military lineage.

When Ridgway got to Korea he found a mess.
The soldiers had poor winter clothing and little hot food.
Morale was low and tactics were defensive
The flag officers were far back from the fighting
UN posts were scattered all over the place.

Ridgway got the troops better clothes, hot food and mail delivery
He made a clear, country-wide boundary between US forces and enemy
He made flag officers come to the front
He went on the offensive and drove Chinese out of S. Korea
He desegregated and integrated forces
He was a salt-of-the-earth type that the troops loved.
On the other hand, MacArthur seemed derelict by contrast

This is how Ridgway saved a failing Army so others could win with it

"I shall go to my grave humbly proud of the fact that on at least four occasions I have stood up at the risk of my career and denounced what I considered to be ill-considered tactical schemes, which I was convinced would result in useless slaughter." M. Ridgway

Gen. Matthew Ridgway Turned The Korean War's Tide

Matthew Ridgway had enough of military life growing up on bases. He had no plans to enter West Point, but did so to please his dad. It's a good thing... Read More

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