OT: Killing Cecil the Lion

[vkj91]

From the Washington Post
American tourists kill hundreds of lions for sport each year. And it's not cheap -- the cost of a lion-hunting safari can run into the tens of thousands of dollars. Walter Palmer, the dentist who allegedly killed Cecil the lion illegally in Zimbabwe, is said to have paid $54,000 for his hunting trip.

The number of African lion trophies taken by American hunters has doubled in recent years, according to the International Fund for Animal Welfare. Given the rising popularity and the amount of money at stake, African safari outfitters have begun aggressively marketing their packages in an attempt to stand out from the crowd.

Most outfitters advertise their prices in U.S. dollars. They promise danger and excitement, but also luxurious accommodations, including spas, well-stocked wine bars, and maid service. Most allow family members or other "observers" to tag along -- for a price. Some companies guarantee a trophy animal. Others promise discounted rates. Still others provide frills like the opportunity to hunt rare white lions, or to hunt from a vehicle if a hike is too much. Here's how a handful of them are selling their wares to would-be hunter-tourists online.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...erican-tourists-to-pay-50000-for-a-dead-lion/

 

[CuredbywinningRU]

I don't really get the outrage about what "is and isn't" hunting. Lion hunting is legal where he was and the only real question becomes was he aware the paid guides were luring the lion specifically to get it off of protected lands. If not, I really don't see the complaint..if so, I hope there is some way to punish him. Before people accuse me of some nonsense I don't hunt or own/like guns. Would you guys be this upset if someone caught a shark that tagged for that shark app?

To me the complaint is that you shouldn't kill animals (including fish) merely so you can enjoy a nice day with your kids or buddies. If you eat what you kill, that may be viewed as better but that's not why most people hunt and fish. It's for enjoyment and skill-testing. I know it's popular and members of my family have fished and I certainly don't advocate outlawing hunting or fishing but I have never personally understood the pleasure that's taken in an activity that involves killing fish or animals for any purpose as part of a nice day out in the sun with a beer family or buddies.

 

[Upstream]

I would bet that doesn't happen. Like all media outrage this will pass(especially if there are no criminal charges). Do you think he kept his hunting a secret from all his employees and patients? Do you think they thought he was going to Africa to watch rugby or surf?

The media outrage will pass. But his patients and the people who live in his community will remember him as the dentist who shot the lion. Even if he loses only 25% of his patients, that is enough to impact his business. He has already closed his practice and there are already protests outside his office. Even after the media fury dies down, the community is not going to forget who he is.

 

[vkj91]

The media outrage will pass. But his patients and the people who live in his community will remember him as the dentist who shot the lion. Even if he loses only 25% of his patients, that is enough to impact his business. He has already closed his practice and there are already protests outside his office. Even after the media fury dies down, the community is not going to forget who he is.

again, I would argue a good portion of his patient base already knew who he was. A guy who drops 50k a year to go to Africa probably talks a great deal about hunting with his patients, especially in Minnesota. If you go to the dentist twice a year I'd bet you know a great deal about yours? I know where mine lives, what her hobbies are, what her husband does, where her kids go to school, where she vacations, and how much she skis and I've only been going to her for 3 or 4 years.

 

[beaced]

rhinopotamus? or hipporocerous?

I pressed like .In a rectangle below it said :you like this". I POSITIVELY,ABSOLUTELY LIKE THIS!!!

 

[RUinPinehurst]

I suggest he serve time, three years at Turtle Island under the tutelage of Eustace Conway.

 

[RUJohnny99]

I don't really get the outrage about what "is and isn't" hunting. Lion hunting is legal where he was and the only real question becomes was he aware the paid guides were luring the lion specifically to get it off of protected lands. If not, I really don't see the complaint..if so, I hope there is some way to punish him.

The legal age of consent in Thailand is 15 yet Americans who go on sex safaris there are prosecuted in America.

 

[vkj91]

The legal age of consent in Thailand is 15 yet Americans who go on sex safaris there are prosecuted in America.

Is lion hunting illegal in the US?

 

[Blitz8RUCrazy]

Is lion hunting illegal in the US?

No, cougar hunting is legal in the US. In fact that is NYCBanker's favorite sport.

 

[Caliknight]

Hunting seems like a lame sport, if you want to call it that. This is especially true when considering majestic animals like lions. Having been on safari in Tanzania, I saw a ton of lions. It doesn't seem to challenging to kill one.

As lame as it is, it wasn't illegal. Also, Cecil died prematurely, but let's remember, lions are lucky to make it 10 years or so in the wild.

As for Kimmel, well choosing to take a stand on the lowest hanging fruit isn't exactly brave.

 

[AntiG]

I'm as Libertarian-minded as one gets but killing for sport (other than for population control like we do with deer/food) is just ridiculous and should not be allowed anywhere in the world.

 

[ArminRU]

It should be illegal to go over there and hunt lions, rhinos or any endangered animal. Certain hunting practices should also be illegal.

 

[JPhoboken]

This Guy has been killing big game for sport for a long time(43 kills). Polar Bears are a threatened species, where do you hunt them for sport? And good god, who would shoot elephants anymore for sport trophies?

Kudos to the US wildlife services for this:

On Friday(April 2014), the US Fish & Wildlife Service (Service) announced that they will be halting all imports into the US of sport-hunted trophy tusks form the nations of Tanzania and Zimbabwe. And while this seems like a no-brainer given the frightening elephant poaching crisis currently happening in Africa, it is still a bold and commendable move by the Service.

“Questionable management practices, a lack of effective law enforcement and weak governance have resulted in uncontrolled poaching and catastrophic population declines of African elephants in Tanzania. In Zimbabwe, available data, though limited, indicate a significant decline in the elephant population. Anecdotal evidence, such as the widely publicized poisoning last year of 300 elephants in Hwange National Park, suggests that Zimbabwe’s elephants are also under siege.”

"Palmer has been hunting big game for many years. His kills are listed by Safari Club International, a big-game hunting group that claims 55,000 members worldwide. The club’s detailed record book lists 43 kills by Palmer, all by bow and arrow. His list includes moose, deer, buffalo, a polar bear and a mountain lion. A photo in the record book from 2005 shows him kneeling behind a dead lion, with his bow propped up against the animal. There is also a photo of him with an African elephant he shot in Zimbabwe in 2013.

 

[Upstream]

It's not his fault the average person doesn't realize you aren't paying 50k to roam around the bush and hopefully see a lion.

again, I would argue a good portion of his patient base already knew who he was. A guy who drops 50k a year to go to Africa probably talks a great deal about hunting with his patients, especially in Minnesota.

I would guess that the average patient who knows he hunts didn't realize that his version of hunting meant paying someone to lure a protected lion out of a protected area, and then wait for the guide to shine a spotlight on the lion so he could shoot it at point-blank range.

 

[Ole Cabbagehead]

My friend's father went "bear hunting" in Maine. Watched a video of it, his dad was in a tree stand, a bear approached to munch on the raw meat left below the stand, and his father put an arrow thru the bear (compound bow). He thought he did something very manly and got the head stuffed and a bear skin rug. I found it disgusting. Deer hunting in NJ is different. We need these guys to prevent an extreme overpopulation.

Well to be fair, that's the same reason we have the bear hunt. Its to control overpopulation. This is the opposite. Anyone who kills an endangered species for sport should be shot.

 

[vkj91]

I would guess that the average patient who knows he hunts didn't realize that his version of hunting meant paying someone to lure a protected lion out of a protected area, and then wait for the guide to shine a spotlight on the lion so he could shoot it at point-blank range.

I still think his average patient won't give a crap. He probably has a pic of him and that polar bear in his office. you think people believe he swam across some cold water, camped on ice and then snuck up on it? I'd guess a helicopter either dropped him off or he shot it from the air. Again, I'm not justifying his actions but what he did(unless they can prove he knew about the protected land) wasn't illegal. hell, this wasn't even his first lion.

 

[vkj91]

Well to be fair, that's the same reason we have the bear hunt. Its to control overpopulation. This is the opposite. Anyone who kills an endangered species for sport should be shot.

John Martins, owner of the Florida-based Discount African Hunts, a hunting broker company that specializes in African safaris.

With an ever-increasing African population, the chances of animal-to-human contact grows, meaning lions pose a threat to the local villagers and their precious cattle livestock.

'Not going to co-exist with those animals'

"Unless that village receives some compensation for the hunting of these animals, they don't have any value. And if they don't have any value they'll be gone. They'll kill them and eat them all.

"They'll either perceive them as a threat that are taking their wealth or killing their kids, or they're eating their food. So it's a threat. Unless there's compensation for that, they're not going to co-exist with those animals."

 

[vkj91]

It should be illegal to go over there and hunt lions, rhinos or any endangered animal. Certain hunting practices should also be illegal.

Quotas are set up by the government based on scientific research on sustainable usage, Martins said. Zimbabwe won't issue permits without conducting population studies, taking into account the number of lions they're seeing, and the number killed the previous year.

 

[vkj91]

remember when people were upset about her?

 

[ScarletRunner]

Quotas are set up by the government based on scientific research on sustainable usage, Martins said. Zimbabwe won't issue permits without conducting population studies, taking into account the number of lions they're seeing, and the number killed the previous year.

John Martins, owner of the Florida-based Discount African Hunts, a hunting broker company that specializes in African safaris.

With an ever-increasing African population, the chances of animal-to-human contact grows, meaning lions pose a threat to the local villagers and their precious cattle livestock.

'Not going to co-exist with those animals'

"Unless that village receives some compensation for the hunting of these animals, they don't have any value. And if they don't have any value they'll be gone. They'll kill them and eat them all.

"They'll either perceive them as a threat that are taking their wealth or killing their kids, or they're eating their food. So it's a threat. Unless there's compensation for that, they're not going to co-exist with those animals."

Are you quoting this obviously biased source (owner of "Discount African Hunts") to illustrate how absurd his argument sounds, or are you actually trying to lend some credence to what he's saying in those quotes?

 

[vkj91]

Are you quoting this obviously biased source (owner of "Discount African Hunts") to illustrate how absurd his argument sounds, or are you actually trying to lend some credence to what he's saying in those quotes?

I'm simply posting what was written. You think it's absurd but to hunters it's a valid explanation for the hunts. People here were talking about killing deer for population. The article states African government only allows a certain number of hunts based on permits and studies. His quotes aren't going to be any less biased than the people who are outraged by hunting. Are they?

 

[RedSpartan]

I'm simply posting what was written. You think it's absurd but to hunters it's a valid explanation for the hunts. People here were talking about killing deer for population. The article states African government only allows a certain number of hunts based on permits and studies. His quotes aren't going to be any less biased than the people who are outraged by hunting. Are they?

I think you're confusing explanation with rationalization.

 

[vkj91]

I think you're confusing explanation with rationalization.

People who don't agree with someone or are against hunting will consider all explanations as rationalizations. Are you saying the government doesn't offer permits based on data? Or do you not believe the locals would have no use for Lions if there wasn't a financial interest?

 

[jmc11201]

This was a CNN story a few months ago about a black rhino hunt. I'm not a hunter and don't get it, but it is another point of view.

http://www.cnn.com/videos/world/201...deo/playlists/controversial-black-rhino-hunt/

It goes through the process a bit and some of the thought process behind the hunts. That being said, if the guy who shot the lion didn't follow the rules, then he deserves whatever he has coming to him.

 

[RULaw11]

remember when people were upset about her?

WOOD

 

[JPhoboken]

The media outrage will pass. But his patients and the people who live in his community will remember him as the dentist who shot the lion. Even if he loses only 25% of his patients, that is enough to impact his business. He has already closed his practice and there are already protests outside his office. Even after the media fury dies down, the community is not going to forget who he is.

He will forever be known as " The Dentist who shot Cecil" Nothing he can do about it now. He will definitely lose patients, I am thinking more than 25%. He is not the only American doing this either.

I hope this brings so much awareness that they figure out a way to stop it. I am not against hunting for sustenance, but shooting Big game by luring it out in the open with slabs of meat, killing it, then chopping its head off for a trophy and leaving the carcus to rot does not sound like sustenance eating to me.

 

[seels2662]

I am an avid hunter, and I think this is wrong. No reason to kill an endangered species.

 

[RUSK97]

I am an avid hunter, and I think this is wrong. No reason to kill an endangered species.

Seels, granted we both agree shooting a threatened species is unethical, but as a hunter, do you think shooting the lion with a high powered rifle (aim placed correctly of course) would've allowed Cecil a quicker death? Or do you think an arrow bolt could've done the job if placed correctly?

 

[seels2662]

Seels, granted we both agree shooting a threatened species is unethical, but as a hunter, do you think shooting the lion with a high powered rifle (aim placed correctly of course) would've allowed Cecil a quicker death? Or do you think an arrow bolt could've done the job if placed correctly?

An arrow could have killed it. I did not read the whole story, I am hoping he is an experienced bow hunter that practices often so that the odds were in his favor to make the right shot.

I also read your previous post, you are right, if this animal was killed over a bait pile while spotlighting its not hunting. I spend a long time finding the right spot to hunt before I hunt the area. I have already made a 8 hour drive to spend time in the woods this year and placed my treestand for a hunt that will not happen until the first week of November. Even if I don't get anything I will be satisfied because I hunted. Hunting is not killing there is alot more to it.

 

[vkj91]

An arrow could have killed it. I did not read the whole story, I am hoping he is an experienced bow hunter that practices often so that the odds were in his favor to make the right shot.

I also read your previous post, you are right, if this animal was killed over a bait pile while spotlighting its not hunting. I spend a long time finding the right spot to hunt before I hunt the area. I have already made a 8 hour drive to spend time in the woods this year and placed my treestand for a hunt that will not happen until the first week of November. Even if I don't get anything I will be satisfied because I hunted. Hunting is not killing there is alot more to it.

like freezing your balls off [roll]

 

[RUJohnny99]

John Martins, owner of the Florida-based Discount African Hunts, a hunting broker company that specializes in African safaris.

With an ever-increasing African population, the chances of animal-to-human contact grows, meaning lions pose a threat to the local villagers and their precious cattle livestock.

'Not going to co-exist with those animals'

"Unless that village receives some compensation for the hunting of these animals, they don't have any value. And if they don't have any value they'll be gone. They'll kill them and eat them all.

"They'll either perceive them as a threat that are taking their wealth or killing their kids, or they're eating their food. So it's a threat. Unless there's compensation for that, they're not going to co-exist with those animals."

As you know, my current au pair's family runs a wildlife preserve in South Africa, that includes lions. They have gotten several 5 figure offers from Americans who want to bag a lion. Of course they've turned every one down, even though it's pretty much life changing money to them.

This guy is full of $@!t and the government of Zimbabwe is full of $#!t. All you have to do is google Zimbabwe genocide to see that country is now doing to the lions what it did to the farmers.

btw, she said an arrow won't do much to a lion. Their skin is too tough. You have to put buckshot in the head to put them down.

 

[seels2662]

like freezing your balls off [roll]

Hehe that is true

 

[RU848789]

If the Cubs are going to die anyway they should allow people to hunt them half price.

Hey now, just because the Cubbies haven't won a World Series in 107 years doesn't mean they should be subjected to that kind of treatment...

 

[OldTownPepe]

I'm also a hunter, but any way you look at it, there's something wrong with this guy to get enjoyment out of the suffering this creature went through. And no - baiting from a jeep isn't hunting. He's apparently an experienced big game hunter who should have known the rules by now, and should answer for his lazy, shameless actions.
I signed three different petitions to have him extradited to Zimbabwe should they press charges.

 

[ScarletRunner]

I'm simply posting what was written. You think it's absurd but to hunters it's a valid explanation for the hunts. People here were talking about killing deer for population. The article states African government only allows a certain number of hunts based on permits and studies. His quotes aren't going to be any less biased than the people who are outraged by hunting. Are they?

What you posted was a quote from a guy who runs an African tour hunting company that completely ignore Zimbabwe's atrocious record on lion hunting. The quote has no merit, and there is no reason to post them other than to prop up a flimsy devil's advocate argument. See RUJohnny's and others' posts above (or just Google) for background on the topic.

It seems like a good amount of the criticism coming this guy's way in this thread is coming from other hunters, so the idea that the other side of the argument is equally biased is also baseless.

 

[SkilletHead2]

As you know, my current au pair's family runs a wildlife preserve in South Africa, that includes lions. They have gotten several 5 figure offers from Americans who want to bag a lion. Of course they've turned every one down, even though it's pretty much life changing money to them.

This guy is full of $@!t and the government of Zimbabwe is full of $#!t. All you have to do is google Zimbabwe genocide to see that country is now doing to the lions what it did to the farmers.

btw, she said an arrow won't do much to a lion. Their skin is too tough. You have to put buckshot in the head to put them down.

You have an au pair whose family runs a wildlife preserve in South Africa? Who knows about hunting with bow and arrow, and what it takes to bring down a lion? I'm rarely at a loss for words....

 

[Scarlet_Scourge]

The loin was an attraction at a sanctuary at a national park, they lured him off the sanctuary and killed him.

This would be like someone walking into a Zoo in the US and freeing a Panda and then killing it as soon as it left the zoo.

This had nothing to do with population control.

 

[fg7321]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/walter-palmer-extradition_55b8ce10e4b0a13f9d1ad47d

I wonder how the jail accommodations are like in Zimbabwe. AIDs is epidemic in many parts of Africa and in a jail it must be very catchy don't you think? ...that would be justice a long protracted case of AIDs.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/walter-palmer-extradition_55b8ce10e4b0a13f9d1ad47d

 

[Knight_Light]

Jimmy Kimmel said it best

View embedded media

.

Its hard to buy those tears...something Kimmel never does when a human is hunted down like a pet lion, similar to the senseless murder of 32 year old Kathryn Steinle, who was just walking on San Francisco Pier with her Father when she was murdered for the hell of it by the illegal alien who had been deported 5 times and recently released from SF Jail because they classify themselves as a "sanctuary city", i.e. US Laws do not count.

No tears for a human.

 

[RU4Real]

You have an au pair whose family runs a wildlife preserve in South Africa? Who knows about hunting with bow and arrow, and what it takes to bring down a lion? I'm rarely at a loss for words....

I have been fortunate to spend time in the company of this young woman.

Johnny's typical au pair rotation is a year, but I think this one should stay.