OT: LeBron To LA Lakers

[Russ Wood]

Yes, and with similar results. Brady's contract has allowed NE to close other positional gaps and made them more competitive than they would be if he was paid his true value. And his lower-than-value salary is relatively recent, starting in 2013 - three years after James/Wade/Bosh took discounted salaries with the Heat in 2010.

The NFL is also structured differently, carrying many more roster players and a much higher salary cap - so a single player (or even 2 or 3) taking reductions isn't going to make as big a difference as it does in the NBA.

The practice of players taking less money than their value to form superteams leads to imbalance, and the salary cap has no provision to counter it. It is designed around player behavior following solely financial incentives - if they start foregoing compensation to follow other incentives (i.e. rings), it really isn't going to do much except collect more hardware for a few superstars and more money for the owners who get much higher value while paying less salary.

It doesn't seem like "solely financial incentives" to me. Sounds like some guys are willing to make financial sacrifices so that their team can bring in more talent and hopefully win a championship.

I am not going to fault any team for trying to improve so that their fans get more value for the tickets they paid for and so they have a better chance to compete for championships.

I just do not understand why an organization doing that bothers some people.

 

[Russ Wood]

Hoping the Durant to the Knicks rumor for next year have some validity. The NBA needs to institute a negotiating window before FA's can actually sign (similar to hockey) that will curtail the rampant tampering that goes on without any league repercussions.

Don't they have a negotiating window now? NBA Free agency began at 12 a.m. July 1, but players cannot sign until July 10.

 

[cyrock3]

The market for Cousins collapsed.

NO lost interest in him when the Lakers renounced Randle. They were able to snag Randle for a relatively affordable contract. Dallas used their cap space on DeAndre Jordan.

Nobody else in the league had much interest.

 

[RUinOhio]

I'm just tired of GS winning.

and as far as Cousins, GS can't be blamed for that move, the rest of the NBA is at fault for not signing him. Cousins has all year to get healthy since they don't need him....he can have a nice end of season, playoff run and get himself a huge contract. Brilliant move by him and GS.

 

[RUChoppin]

It doesn't seem like "solely financial incentives" to me. Sounds like some guys are willing to make financial sacrifices so that their team can bring in more talent and hopefully win a championship.

I am not going to fault any team for trying to improve so that their fans get more value for the tickets they paid for and so they have a better chance to compete for championships.

I just do not understand why an organization doing that bothers some people.

What I meant was that the concept of a salary cap relies on players always seeking at least their market value - if all players are paid according to their value, then the salary cap helps to create parity, as each team would have the same cap and the same resulting player value. Teams that go over the cap pay a penalty, and teams that overpay for players end up with less value for their money.

When players break out of that mold, though, the effectiveness of a salary cap breaks down. When players sacrifice financially in order to follow different incentives, then the salary cap becomes more toothless.

And the players are the driving force here, not the teams. The teams always have tried to get the most value for their buck, and that hasn't changed - what has changed is the players' willingness to take large salary cuts in exchange for better chances of winning championships. With the players being willing to accept contracts that don't match their value, the teams will gladly take advantage to pay less for a better product (and reap the profits).

Not saying that a lack of parity is necessarily a bad thing, though, on its face. Clearly there is fan interest in watching goliaths slug it out. But I also understand the "wake me for the playoffs" sentiment of a portion of the fanbase.

 

[MADHAT1]

I'm just tired of GS winning.

and as far as Cousins, GS can't be blamed for that move, the rest of the NBA is at fault for not signing him. Cousins has all year to get healthy since they don't need him....he can have a nice end of season, playoff run and get himself a huge contract. Brilliant move by him and GS.

No team should be blamed for trying to make themselves into a winning dynasty ,but the NBA and every pro league needs to make sure every team has a chance (baring incompetence) compete equaly and set rules that can keep every team competitive. Right now it's the halves vs the have slight chance and the have-nots and will continue to be that way .maybe signing more than FA for 1 year would drop that team 1 spot in the next year's draft .Teams drafting close to the end of 1'st round would have to wait till after the 10th 2nd round draft choice was made before being able to draft a player.
Not the greatest way to help competitive league-wide balance, but a start .

 

[TDIrish27]

If Chris Paul was healthy I believe the Rockets win the West.

Which is why I believe measuring the Warriors for rings in July is a big leap.

 

[Mr Magoo]

No problem with what the Warriors are doing. They drafted wisely and attracted too-tier player and coaching talent. It’s not like they are the Yankees with an an endless supply of cash.

There’s no reason other teams couldn’t have done the same. LeBron is probably kicking himself that he didn’t join them years ago.

 

[Russ Wood]

What I meant was that the concept of a salary cap relies on players always seeking at least their market value - if all players are paid according to their value, then the salary cap helps to create parity, as each team would have the same cap and the same resulting player value. Teams that go over the cap pay a penalty, and teams that overpay for players end up with less value for their money.

When players break out of that mold, though, the effectiveness of a salary cap breaks down. When players sacrifice financially in order to follow different incentives, then the salary cap becomes more toothless.

And the players are the driving force here, not the teams. The teams always have tried to get the most value for their buck, and that hasn't changed - what has changed is the players' willingness to take large salary cuts in exchange for better chances of winning championships. With the players being willing to accept contracts that don't match their value, the teams will gladly take advantage to pay less for a better product (and reap the profits).

Not saying that a lack of parity is necessarily a bad thing, though, on its face. Clearly there is fan interest in watching goliaths slug it out. But I also understand the "wake me for the playoffs" sentiment of a portion of the fanbase.

Admit it, you want parity. It's okay lots of people want that.

I don't, but that's just me.

 

[RUChoppin]

Admit it, you want parity. It's okay lots of people want that.

I don't, but that's just me.

I'm not a big day-to-day NBA fan, so I'm not their target audience. Parity wouldn't really matter much to me, since I don't watch much of the regular season (unless there's a match up of likely conference finals contenders). I have zero interest in watching games between, say, Brooklyn and New Orleans. Golden State and Houston, though, I'd watch during the regular season (unless they were resting their stars, for whatever reason). I don't have a "team" I follow - I like watching good games.

If anything, the games I tune in to see are the result of the lack of parity - I'm one who likes watching superstars clash against each other. But I also find the regular season a bit of a yawner because 90% of the games are against teams that don't have enough firepower to matter. Would parity make me watch more games? Maybe - but doubtful.

The interest I have in the NBA regular season next year comes down to what the Lakers do to build around Lebron, and possibly how Cousins fits into the GS chemistry. Once the playoffs start, they have my attention.

What I prefer, though, is a separate discussion. It doesn't change the point that recent player behavior has undermined relevancy/effectiveness of the salary cap, because they are motivated by incentives that the salary cap can't control for.

 

[LotusAggressor]

There are great players that have had their careers belittled for NOT winning championships. Now we're criticizing players for trying to maximize their chances of winning them?

For all the whining about the Warriors getting Cousins, it's not exactly unprecedented. In 1982, the Lakers acquired Bob McAdoo, adding a 3 time scoring champion and future Hall Of Famer to a team that had already won a title and was one of the best teams in the NBA. A few years later, the Celtics added Dennis Johnson, one of the best guards in the NBA at the time and an eventual Hall of Famer, to a team that had just won a title.

 

[HeyHuey]

After Klutch Sports Group announced on July 1 the four-time MVP was joining the franchise on a four-year contract, it tweeted a picture of James signing the $153 million deal with Lakers general manager Rob Pelinka on Monday: $38M/per?

What did he walk away from in Cleveland?

 

[SkilletHead2]

This is an interesting question. For decades, the Yankees just bought what they wanted because they had the money to do so, and the NY market to recoup on their investment.

When dynasties are built on a team having a great coach or a terrific organization, that's fine by me (e.g., Green Bay back in the Lombardi days, Boston Celts under Auerbach), but I'm less of a fan of the richest team simply being able to buy the best players. Of course, when you're as dumb as the Knicks have been ("the future is now, baby") then money doesn't necessarily help.

Right now, the NBA just seems to be bizarre.

 

[RUChoppin]

What did he walk away from in Cleveland?

Dan Gilbert?

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

 

[MADHAT1]

Dan Gilbert?

:stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:

that and he felt Cleveland's time as a contender had ended.
LeBrom is probably thinking he needs a title or two more to be considered as one of the greatest of all time and maybe the greatest if he can bring the title to the Lakers , making it three teams he made champions.
Don't think he won't be credited with doing that.
LeBron is the man thought to have made the Heat Champions with Wade and Bosh in supporting roles.
With Cleveland it was him with a help from Irving and others.
Now it's LA that it will be King James leading it to the Holy Grail, with a little help from friends.
Adding to many looking on James as the greatest of all times and cementing himself in NBA lore

 

[RUChoppin]

that and he felt Cleveland's time as a contender had ended.
LeBrom is probably thinking he needs a title or two more to be considered as one of the greatest of all time and maybe the greatest if he can bring the title to the Lakers , making it three teams he made champions.
Don't think he won't be credited with doing that.
LeBron is the man thought to have made the Heat Champions with Wade and Bosh in supporting roles.
With Cleveland it was him with a help from Irving and others.
Now it's LA that it will be King James leading it to the Holy Grail, with a little help from friends.
Adding to many looking on James as the greatest of all times and cementing himself in NBA lore

Just looked it up. There are just two players with championships across 3 different teams: Robert Horry (Rockets x2, Lakers x3, Spurs x2) and John Salley (Pistons x2, Bulls, Lakers) - and neither of them were stars on their championship squads.

If James could pick up a ring with the Lakers, that would break some new ground in the legacy discussion.

 

[SkilletHead2]

that and he felt Cleveland's time as a contender had ended.
LeBrom is probably thinking he needs a title or two more to be considered as one of the greatest of all time and maybe the greatest if he can bring the title to the Lakers , making it three teams he made champions.
Don't think he won't be credited with doing that.
LeBron is the man thought to have made the Heat Champions with Wade and Bosh in supporting roles.
With Cleveland it was him with a help from Irving and others.
Now it's LA that it will be King James leading it to the Holy Grail, with a little help from friends.
Adding to many looking on James as the greatest of all times and cementing himself in NBA lore

I'd say LeBron has "one of the greatest of all time" securely wrapped up at this point. If you look at the great teams, there were always another great player or two on the team.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I'd say LeBron has "one of the greatest of all time" securely wrapped up at this point. If you look at the great teams, there were always another great player or two on the team.

Welcome back from TOS wasteland of inactivity! Yes, LeBron has to be considered one of the greatest of all time. Top 10 isn't debatable, Top 5 probably isn't either.

 

[SkilletHead2]

Welcome back from TOS wasteland of inactivity! Yes, LeBron has to be considered one of the greatest of all time. Top 10 isn't debatable, Top 5 probably isn't either.

I post on both sites regularly. The premium board is popular there, but not the other boards.

 

[LotusAggressor]

This is an interesting question. For decades, the Yankees just bought what they wanted because they had the money to do so, and the NY market to recoup on their investment.

When dynasties are built on a team having a great coach or a terrific organization, that's fine by me (e.g., Green Bay back in the Lombardi days, Boston Celts under Auerbach), but I'm less of a fan of the richest team simply being able to buy the best players. Of course, when you're as dumb as the Knicks have been ("the future is now, baby") then money doesn't necessarily help.

Right now, the NBA just seems to be bizarre.

The Celtic dynasties of the '60s and '80s were built on Red Auerbach fleecing fellow GMs.

 

[SkilletHead2]

The Celtic dynasties of the '60s and '80s were built on Red Auerbach fleecing fellow GMs.

Met him once. Small guy. Amazing mind.

 

[LotusAggressor]

Met him once. Small guy. Amazing mind.

A genius. Got Bill Russell, Robert Parish, and Dennis Johnson in trades. Drafted Larry Bird as a college junior.

 

[Mr Magoo]

A genius. Got Bill Russell, Robert Parish, and Dennis Johnson in trades. Drafted Larry Bird as a college junior.

Don’t forget, that in the 1980 trade that got them Parrish, he dealt the 1st and 13th pick to the Warriors for the 3rd pick that also got the Celtics Kevin McHale. The first pick was Joe Barry Carroll, who was an absolute bust when compared to McHale.

 

[shields]

Leonard to Raptors, very good. Keep away from Lakers.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Leonard to Raptors, very good. Keep away from Lakers.

I agree. It also think it's funny that the Spurs are shipping him to Toronto for a year..be careful what you wish for. I don't like what he did...but I don't care for Popovich either. It's a "lose-lose" for both of them (and LeBron).

 

[RUChoppin]

Decent chance that Leonard is a one year rental with Toronto and ends up in LA anyway the following season - without the Lakers having to give up as much in trade to get him.

 

[LotusAggressor]

Don’t forget, that in the 1980 trade that got them Parrish, he dealt the 1st and 13th pick to the Warriors for the 3rd pick that also got the Celtics Kevin McHale. The first pick was Joe Barry Carroll, who was an absolute bust when compared to McHale.

He built one of the greatest front lines in NBA history with a few smart moves. Amazing.

 

[TDIrish27]

Decent chance that Leonard is a one year rental with Toronto and ends up in LA anyway the following season - without the Lakers having to give up as much in trade to get him.

Decent chance he's a 1 year rental ?

It's guaranteed------with what taxes will do to a max deal in Canada he cannot sign with them.

That said Leonard walked away from a ton of money by not agreeing to go to Philly

 

[RUinOhio]

disagree, I want a team to be able to compete with GS, even if it has to be Lebron's Lakers. did I just say that?

Leonard to Raptors, very good. Keep away from Lakers.

 

[koleszar]

Is this a serious post?

I really don't understand why this bothers people so much. It's called free agency.

I actually like it. It's a bunch of players being unselfish taking pay cuts to win it all. Nothing says others can't do it as well. Being a Giants fan I was hoping Eli did the same but alas he chose the other route, take as much as you can get and get your ass kicked because they can't afford an Oline to protect you. Short sighted and stupid IMO. Endorsements and TV spots are where you make that up. Tom Brady did exactly what these guys are doing, it's turning out pretty good for him as well.

 

[Mr Magoo]

disagree, I want a team to be able to compete with GS, even if it has to be Lebron's Lakers. did I just say that?

I'm ok with Golden State and others keeping LeBron from getting another title for as long as possible,

 

[RUChoppin]

I'm ok with Golden State and others keeping LeBron from getting another title for as long as possible,

Better for Durant to get more titles, I guess?

I'm interested to see how all the shuffling settles out. Lakers will use this year to see what their chemistry is like and to bring their young players along, and then they'll look to bring in Leonard in 2019 to try to become a legitimate threat to make the Finals.

Will also be interesting to see if Durant/Thompson take pay cuts to keep GS together after this season, or if they go for max contracts that force GS to shuffle their lineup. Green and Iguodala are both up in 2020, too, and Green has said he won't be taking another pay cut next time.

 

[shields]

Tired of these guys teaming up.

 

[Mr Magoo]

Better for Durant to get more titles, I guess?

I'm interested to see how all the shuffling settles out. Lakers will use this year to see what their chemistry is like and to bring their young players along, and then they'll look to bring in Leonard in 2019 to try to become a legitimate threat to make the Finals.

Will also be interesting to see if Durant/Thompson take pay cuts to keep GS together after this season, or if they go for max contracts that force GS to shuffle their lineup. Green and Iguodala are both up in 2020, too, and Green has said he won't be taking another pay cut next time.

Yes, for me I’d rather see Durant win a bunch more titles than LeBron. LeBron started this nonsense taking his talent to “South Beach” and promising “not one, not two, not three” etc championships.

LeBron has left a team 3 times now in search for more championships while seemingly having a lot of input as to who should and shouldn’t play with him.

Durant has done it once.

Golden State is playing entirely within the rules of the NBA. Any other team with enough foresight could have done exactly the same thing with the right management. It’s not like Golden State had any of the advantages of being in a market like NY or LA or the mystique of the Celtics. Good for them.

On the other hand, this GS dynasty probably won’t last as long as people think it will. Egos and money get in the way, players get hurt, etc. In the meantime, I enjoy watching this team.

 

[RUChoppin]

Yes, for me I’d rather see Durant win a bunch more titles than LeBron. LeBron started this nonsense taking his talent to “South Beach” and promising “not one, not two, not three” etc championships.

LeBron has left a team 3 times now in search for more championships while seemingly having a lot of input as to who should and shouldn’t play with him.

Durant has done it once.

Golden State is playing entirely within the rules of the NBA. Any other team with enough foresight could have done exactly the same thing with the right management. It’s not like Golden State had any of the advantages of being in a market like NY or LA or the mystique of the Celtics. Good for them.

On the other hand, this GS dynasty probably won’t last as long as people think it will. Egos and money get in the way, players get hurt, etc. In the meantime, I enjoy watching this team.

So, an overhyped announcement show and a pep rally is more damning than joining the team you couldn't beat. Okay. To each their own, I guess.

I don't find switching teams to be that big of a deal. Shaq played for six different teams in his career, and that doesn't take away from his legacy for me. Again, though, to each their own.

It's interesting, though, that you pivot immediately to "GS is playing entirely within the rules of the NBA" after getting on James for also playing entirely within the rules of the NBA. When a team does it, "good for them"... when a player does it, "screw that guy", I guess.

I like watching GS play - particularly Curry and Thompson. It's a fun brand of basketball, and it's fun to watch a bunch of all stars come together. I also enjoy watching James play. I'd love to see the Lakers clash with the Warriors in the playoffs this year, and each of the next several years.

 

[Mr Magoo]

So, an overhyped announcement show and a pep rally is more damning than joining the team you couldn't beat. Okay. To each their own, I guess.

I don't find switching teams to be that big of a deal. Shaq played for six different teams in his career, and that doesn't take away from his legacy for me. Again, though, to each their own.

It's interesting, though, that you pivot immediately to "GS is playing entirely within the rules of the NBA" after getting on James for also playing entirely within the rules of the NBA. When a team does it, "good for them"... when a player does it, "screw that guy", I guess.

I like watching GS play - particularly Curry and Thompson. It's a fun brand of basketball, and it's fun to watch a bunch of all stars come together. I also enjoy watching James play. I'd love to see the Lakers clash with the Warriors in the playoffs this year, and each of the next several years.

So, you do make a good point about playing within the rules (teams vs. players), and I'm not denying the fact that I don't particulary care for LeBron. You are correct that I do not have an issue with a team trying to create the best team they can. After all, that's what they are supposed to do. You are also correct that I do have an issue when a player tries to become bigger than the game and takes it upon himself to "create" a team. That's what LeBron did with Wade and Bosh. I think it's different than what Durant did. Durant joined the Warriors by himself, after they already were a championship team, and after LeBron had his circus side-show that starteed this nonsense several years earlier.

LeBron is already one of the two best players ever but, like some people get tired of watching the Warriors dominate, I get tired of LeBron making move after to move chasing rings and seemingly dictating roster moves to be perceived as the greatest player ever. I'm sure he'll "hand-pick" his players in LA also.

 

[RUChoppin]

So, you do make a good point about playing within the rules (teams vs. players), and I'm not denying the fact that I don't particulary care for LeBron. You are correct that I do not have an issue with a team trying to create the best team they can. After all, that's what they are supposed to do. You are also correct that I do have an issue when a player tries to become bigger than the game and takes it upon himself to "create" a team. That's what LeBron did with Wade and Bosh. I think it's different than what Durant did. Durant joined the Warriors by himself, after they already were a championship team, and after LeBron had his circus side-show that starteed this nonsense several years earlier.

LeBron is already one of the two best players ever but, like some people get tired of watching the Warriors dominate, I get tired of LeBron making move after to move chasing rings and seemingly dictating roster moves to be perceived as the greatest player ever. I'm sure he'll "hand-pick" his players in LA also.

Lebron's moves in Miami basically paved the way for Durant to join Golden State. If not for the James/Wade/Bosh moves, it's possible that the "Hampton's Five" wouldn't have happened later. Without those guys taking salary cuts to play together, it's possible that Green wouldn't have taken one to make room for Durant. That's a whole other conversation around the effectiveness of a salary cap, though (and, really, imo, an argument for its removal).

In the end, Durant took an easier path to rings than James did - he joined a championship team that he couldn't beat in the Western Conference Finals, and basically guaranteed himself at least one (and likely multiple) rings. James has taken a harder road than that in each move - trying to win championships with a Miami organization that hadn't won a playoff game in 4 years, coming back to a strained ownership situation to try to bring a championship to Cleveland, and now trying to rebuild a down Lakers squad. To me, I have more respect in taking the harder path than the easier one, but ymmv.

As far as the side show, I know that rubbed people the wrong way. I thought "The Decision" was dumb - and just feeding into the ESPN hype machine - which he carefully avoided in both subsequent moves. I think he wanted the HS-kid-choosing-a-college moment that he never got, but it was all just too much. The pep rally didn't bother me - those are things you're supposed to say at a pep rally - but I know it also irritated some people, especially coming on the heels of The Decision.

But there are no shortage of egos and showboating around the NBA, either - so none of that really bothers me much. Some people have a problem with Steph Curry's antics, too, but I don't. To me, you're allowed to talk when you're one of the best players in the league.

 

[RUinOhio]

certainly you're entitled to your opinion, I just can't stand Curry and his antics, and KD couldn't beat them so he joined them. lame imo. I agree tho that they haven't done anything wrong.

Yes, for me I’d rather see Durant win a bunch more titles than LeBron. LeBron started this nonsense taking his talent to “South Beach” and promising “not one, not two, not three” etc championships.

LeBron has left a team 3 times now in search for more championships while seemingly having a lot of input as to who should and shouldn’t play with him.

Durant has done it once.

Golden State is playing entirely within the rules of the NBA. Any other team with enough foresight could have done exactly the same thing with the right management. It’s not like Golden State had any of the advantages of being in a market like NY or LA or the mystique of the Celtics. Good for them.

On the other hand, this GS dynasty probably won’t last as long as people think it will. Egos and money get in the way, players get hurt, etc. In the meantime, I enjoy watching this team.

 

[cyrock3]

I don’t see Leonard sticking around in Toronto. With that said, he should stick around. They have everything set up there to win. The only bad thing about Toronto is the weather, and even then, in a large city, you very likely live in a swanky apartment where the effect of weather is minimized.