OT: LPR, Law Enforcement and Personal Freedom
- Thread starter RU4Real
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You want me to tell you how current generation travel time systems work? Because what you said here is completely wrong.
I think we should all do this:
http://hackaday.com/2014/04/04/sql-injection-fools-speed-traps-and-clears-your-record/
LOLOLOL. SQL Injection for LPRs. That's awesome.
Please share. I'm amazed how you find so much wrong when I said absolutely nothing about how its actually done.
I try to limit my exposure where I deem appropriate. I also try to control which methods can be used to track me. Of course it can't be done realistically if you want to live a normal life but if you control some of the ways you are tracked and are aware of the others you can make it much harder to track you if you need it to be hard.
Plus awareness and rejection alone are a huge distance from the "If you're not doing anything wrong why do you care?" mindset.
Absolutely hate the idea of big brother tracking and storing data regarding my whereabouts. I have nothing to hide (currently), but who's to say that this data could somehow be used against me in the future as the noose of big brother tightens?
I'll give you an example. I have a Honda Pilot(2013) with a Navigation system that includes real time traffic. The heart of the Navigation system is made up of two parts, a GPS receiver and a map database. The GPS receiver "receives" information from various GPS sats and determines my(actually my car's) location and then that is plotted on the map database and displayed on the screen. This requires exactly 0 outbound communications from my vehicle and the GPS transmitters on the sats know nothing about the fact that I have received the signal. I also stated that my Navigation system also has real time traffic. It gets that data from a series of FM transmitters that broadcast all of the traffic in the local area. My navigation system uses that data plots it on my display without ever broadcasting anything.
There are systems out there based on google maps, onstar/etc that require an outbound connection, but that is not all of them.
Of course you don't care about the collection. You're job is to collect it. You're part of the problem.
All you have to do is put constraints around it. LOL. Sure that will work. And you never looked up your neighbors or family either.
Where does it say "connected" here:
Only if phone based. a Garmin or a tomtom don't work that way. GPS sats send down what are essentially time stamps. your receiver deciphers the difference in time stamps and via black magic provides a location. You are not being tracked.
That's the statement - your statement - I responded to. You don't just get to change it around later and pretend it was correct and I'm the idiot. You were wrong, you doubled down on being wrong and now you've just tripled down on it in true a-hole fashion. I'd be angry, too, if I was that wrong, but mind your temper.
And your *corrected* argument might be technically accurate, but it's also useless. No one stickies an aftermarket nav system to their car window anymore and no one's going back that direction. So great, the gubment doesn't get data about your hiking activity. Thanks for contributing that nugget!
You didn't say anything about how it's actually done but you implied that it had something to do with GPS systems. It does not.
A little background is in order.
The very first "travel time" systems were very rudimentary and their scope of coverage was confined to major highways. The travel times were displayed only via DMS (Dynamic Message Systems, aka the signs - either fixed or portable - which flash messages at you on the highway). The data was obtained from 5th generation toll tags, known as "Mark 5". Tag readers were placed on the side of the road and read the Mk5 tags as they went by. The system automatically encrypts your tag ID using a basic encryption algorithm and stores it. The next time your tag is read, by the next reader up the road, time and distance are calculated to give average speed for the segment.
In early 2008 during the couple of years I spent with Telvent Transportation my team was given an RFI challenge by one of the state DOTs. The challenge was "design and implement a high-density travel time pilot program for secondary roadways without using Mk5 data".
The solution we came up with - Bluetooth.
We put it together in, literally, less than a week. It works exactly the same way as the Mk5-based travel time systems, except that it uses a simpler (and smaller and cheaper) receiver that receives the Bluetooth signals of every powered-on cell phone and headset and iPad and whatever that goes by. Each of these devices has a MAC address for Layer 2 connectivity and that MAC address is almost continually transmitted by the device, so as to maintain pair coupling. So we picked them off, ran them through the algorithms used by the tag-based systems and had a means to gather travel time data that was deployable anywhere and would work anywhere.
The data is open-source (by design) and so that's where your pretty colored lines on your Google map come from.
You mean, would manufactures ever build in a capability that they don't advertise? Like a chip that can receive radio on a phone, or near field communications that isn't implemented, an rfid tag that passes information when you enter a store, a radio chirp that indicates presence, those are a few ways. I bought an IP camera recently and put it behind a firewall to see what it did after reading some disturbing comments online. Sure enough, it opened multiple external connections on its own, including one to a foreign company. The camera was advertised as a device used in industrial applications and ATM's.
Your camera was connected to a network.
You're using that as an example to suggest that car manufacturers put 4G transmitters in their cars and don't tell anyone.
Who pays the bill? (just the first question of many that springs to mind)
You seem like the kind of person who might buy Reynolds Wrap in larger than usual quantities.
You describe receiving data, not the creation of it. If your system, includes bluetooth, See the post by RU4real, and thank you for your contribution to travel time data.
The difference being that travel time systems are anonymous. Even the BT-based systems still encrypt the MAC address data and, like the Mk5 systems before them, they throw it away within some brief period of time after last contact - that feature is actually a design requirement, because you have to be able to exclude from your TT calculations all those people who stop at rest areas, etc. So travel time systems aren't "collecting data" about people's movements, per se - and they're definitely not storing it, because they're not designed with any real storage capacity. DOTs don't have the kind of budget flexibility to buy Isilons.
Who said anything about 4G? You yourself described how you it took a week to build a government system of tracking private bluetooth data used without the knowledge or permission of the donors. Sure you weren't doing anything nefarious with the data, but it pretty clearly illustrates what can be done when disconnected electronics move around. A miscreant might collect that same data at a particular location over time and build a database for other purposes.
The discussion started with a statement that built-in navigation systems in cars transmit data and I was providing an example of a built-in navigation system that does not. Travel time information is a completely separate point.
This all comes comes down to a concern that we all have about not the collection of the data in the first place, but the risks associated with the long-term persistence of that data, whether those risk are commercial and monetary or more central to the principals of freedom/privacy that we think we have. The reality is that more and more of this data is going to be persisted and more and more ways are going to be found to make use of that data. I work in the software industry and these analytics are the number 1 topic of conversation in every firm I work with. What is imperative is that the conversation continue about how to balance the value of the use of the data with the levels of privacy we think we want.
I think Europe has it right with the right to be forgotten discussion. Its great to hear about companies self regulating, but not everyone is going to do that.
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I am for anything that helps keep us safer and to capture criminals . I have nothing to hide so I don't care . I know some say it's s privacy thing but I rather have s safer society.
I would agree with this point.
But it's interesting to note that one of the questions in the room when we whiteboarded the Bluetooth solution was "is there a mechanism common to automobiles that can provide high density transmissions?"
The answer is, of course, "no" - at least in 2008. Because OnStar isn't dense enough and the first car with a built-in LTE connection to the internet had yet to be conceived.
Cell phones were discussed - and ruled out. They were ruled out because they are, in a very real sense, licensed and controlled by the FCC and we didn't want to build regulatory requirements into the solution. So the answer that popped up pretty quickly was "bluetooth - they're pervasive devices and they're completely innocuous, from a regulatory perspective."
As a dad with an 18 year old that's been volunteering as both an EMT and firefighter for awhile, and is hoping to soon get some part time paid work doing one or both while he's in college, this is not making me feel all warm and fuzzy.
Well know I know you are ignorant. Example 3 is proactive and states there is no proof of a data breach just a flaw that could lead to a data breach. Example 2 is a data breach of aggregated data from the census bureau. No individual data but the same aggregated stuff they sell. The first was caused by lack of security by the tax preparer not the IRS.
Nice try but really really weak. Let me ask you a serious question, does a snowball in DC in the winter prove global warming is a myth?
Argument: Null HO_Starts with "Cars....ends"?[smoke]
But personally, I think as long as we have Life ...the other freedoms are overrated (e.g. Happiness/ Liberty....are relative terms) I.e. I think there's a benefit in STOPPING CRIME before it starts / apprehending terrorists & the like.
So I'd be willing to trade off some of the personal freedoms for life / hopefully a more secure society.
MO
Kim Jong-un likes these posts.
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." The ever-growing list of implied powers interpreted by Congress, the Supreme Court can certainly be considered extra-legal in many cases, if not unconstitutional by practically ignoring the last conjunction of the Tenth Amendment..
You're doubling down on ridiculous.
That thing you're calling "proactive"? Here's a quote from reporting in early June 2015 on the actual incident (from the same website):
"On Thursday afternoon, The U.S. Office of Personnel Management (OPM) said that it identified a “cybersecurity incident” in April 2015 that potentially exposed personnel data of upwards of 4 million current and former federal employees, including personally identifiable information (PII). "
I don't know about you, but that sounds an awful lot like an actual breach. Here's another quote from the same earlier article:
"There is a general notion that government agencies unilaterally have their act together when it comes to protecting their information assets; this is fundamentally false," Jay Kaplan, CEO of Synack and former NSA analyst, told SecurityWeek. "Government agencies have just as much trouble protecting sensitive data as the largest corporations in the world."
Of course, what would NSA analysts know about governmental digital security, eh?
The article I originally linked (in my last post to you) was from the same website, later in June and the number had been upped to about 18 million.
Not sure how you define "proactive" or "ignorant". But calling an actual data-breach affecting 18 million government employees, including some that work in situations where the breach compromised both people and operations in life-threatening ways "proactive" sounds pretty ignorant to me.
If you knew the least thing about data security, you'd know the that bottom line is that if a device is connected to the internet, then that device can be breached. The only way to be non-breachable is to non-reachable (physically disconnected, and even that's not 100% secure for various human issues). This is a well-known axiom in the web security world.
And I'm telling you that I know, from professional experience, that there have been far more breaches than have been reported or even detected.
Tell us some more about how safe all our data accessible to the internet is. You can keep calling me ignorant if it makes you feel better, and I can keep pulling up lots of examples of data breaches proving my points. I think maybe you ought to rethink this one.
Well even when that happens, remember I am not part of "us". I'm a "them" at that point.;)
In your brain was this point so profound as to require being enlarged and multi-colored?
Bingo.
I am not currently doing anything illegal; so it theoretically should not be much of an issue whether the police state and the global marketing complex are tracking my every move and collecting and storing a data portrait of me.
My concern is what will happen if my personal values, morals, and decision-making process do not "evolve" along with the rest of society to the point that someday, someone with access to this data decides to mischaracterize it, to intentionally draw the wrong conclusions from it or simply to fabricate data to use it as leverage to force me to conform my beliefs and way of life to whatever society sees fit at that moment.
People will abuse any system for personal gain and power.
The problem isn't necessarily local ownership of the info its national and the impact it may have on the lives of ordinary Americans. Not a huge fan of the source but they get it right sometimes...
Firefighting has its own inherent risks, obviously. When you add the element of public interaction a la EMS, the risks increase. You get a lot of training on how to be safe but very occasionally a situation pops up that requires what could best be described as a "fighting retreat".
Where to start???
There are significant data breaches every year. Do you know that less than .5% of those victims ever have fraud against them.
Do you know that 40% of people will have fraud committed against their credit card or debit card. However I am sure the next time you go to the restaurant you will gladly give your card to a stranger that takes it into the back room.
As I stated above credit bureaus are the backbone of lending in every country on the planet. Should we get rid of them because they continuously have security issues? Credit and debit cards are the backbone of commerce in every country on the planet and fraud is so rampant that 40% of users will get victimized annually. Should we get rid of them?
As stated above, your phone has a GPS and at some level is tracking you, should we get rid of our phones? Do you surf the internet, someone is tracking you? Maybe we should get rid of the internet also.
If there are tools that help police do a better job, we should allow them to use them and put safeguards against their abuse. If you have no faith in government being able to do so as stated above, then maybe you need to find a different place to live. A place with no credit bureaus, no internet, no credit cards, no government, no computers, etc. Ted Kaczynski can help you find that place.
On the topic of safety vs. personal liberty: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker
"A New York woman says her family's interest in the purchase of pressure cookers and backpacks led to a home visit by six police investigators demanding information about her job, her husband's ancestry and the preparation of quinoa...
"I felt a sense of creeping dread take over. What else had I looked up? What kind of searches did I do that alone seemed innocent enough but put together could make someone suspiciou?...Mostly I felt a great sense of anxiety. This is where we are at. Where you have no expectation of privacy. Where trying to learn how to cook some lentils could possibly land you on a watch list. Where you have to watch every little thing you do because someone else is watching every little thing you do. All I know is if I'm going to buy a pressure cooker in the near future, I'm not doing it online. I'm scared. And not of the right things."
"A New York woman says her family's interest in the purchase of pressure cookers and backpacks led to a home visit by six police investigators demanding information about her job, her husband's ancestry and the preparation of quinoa...
"I felt a sense of creeping dread take over. What else had I looked up? What kind of searches did I do that alone seemed innocent enough but put together could make someone suspiciou?...Mostly I felt a great sense of anxiety. This is where we are at. Where you have no expectation of privacy. Where trying to learn how to cook some lentils could possibly land you on a watch list. Where you have to watch every little thing you do because someone else is watching every little thing you do. All I know is if I'm going to buy a pressure cooker in the near future, I'm not doing it online. I'm scared. And not of the right things."
Agree with what some posters already mentioned re: privacy: horse is out of the stable.
So the real issue isn't whether or not we accept tracking, but to what extent.
As Screw suggests, we still hold the answer to that as individuals for the most part.
We can have our modern conveniences (internet, cell phones, vehicles, air travel, etc.) or we can choose to live an Amish-style existence in an off grid earthship:
So the real issue isn't whether or not we accept tracking, but to what extent.
As Screw suggests, we still hold the answer to that as individuals for the most part.
We can have our modern conveniences (internet, cell phones, vehicles, air travel, etc.) or we can choose to live an Amish-style existence in an off grid earthship:
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