OT: Residential zoning variance... any advice?

[JMORC2003]

Looking to push a section of the front of my house out approximately 4 ft. The setback from the street listed on my survey is 30ft and I'm currently at 31.67ft. I can apply for a variance, wondering if anyone has any experience with that. I was told I'd have to present plans to the zoning board, but I'd hate to pay for architect plans just to have them rejected.

This is to expand a kitchen, so its living space, not a deck or pool or anything. And only would go 2.5-3 ft past the line.

Also worth noting minimum setbacks in my section of town are supposed to be 25ft, however called my zoning office and they said that whatever's on the survey is what goes (there's a reason why they made it 30ft for my lot).

 

[yesrutgers01]

You have no choice...not sure what you expect from this board.

Edit- I read too fast and thought your town setback was 30...first step is to find out why your survey is different then the zoning.

 

[Fat-Tony]

I have some experience with variances. What town do you live in? Not sure why they are telling you that your survey is controlling.

 

[RU_Planning]

Looking to push a section of the front of my house out approximately 4 ft. The setback from the street listed on my survey is 30ft and I'm currently at 31.67ft. I can apply for a variance, wondering if anyone has any experience with that. I was told I'd have to present plans to the zoning board, but I'd hate to pay for architect plans just to have them rejected.

This is to expand a kitchen, so its living space, not a deck or pool or anything. And only would go 2.5-3 ft past the line.

Also worth noting minimum setbacks in my section of town are supposed to be 25ft, however called my zoning office and they said that whatever's on the survey is what goes (there's a reason why they made it 30ft for my lot).

Sounds like there could be a hardship, which will help. I suggest talking to a land use attorney first, they understand the process well and could point you in the right direction.

 

[Knight Shift]

I am confused. Your local ordinance, not your survey, determines the minimum setback. A survey is a document drawn up by a surveyor that indicates the setbacks and contours of building and other physical structures such as fences on your property. If you ordinance calls for 25 Feet, and you want to extend from 31.67 to 27.67, that should not require a variance.

 

[RU_Planning]

I am confused. Your local ordinance, not your survey, determines the minimum setback. A survey is a document drawn up by a surveyor that indicates the setbacks and contours of building and other physical structures such as fences on your property. If you ordinance calls for 25 Feet, and you want to extend from 31.67 to 27.67, that should not require a variance.

Exactly. Seems like a weird interpretation by the local official.

 

[KingHigh]

I have served on 3 different land use Forrest as a member, & I handle land use applications professionally. If you have any questions send me a private message and I'll go through everything with you.

 

[RU5180]

What town are you in JMORC2003? I suspect Kinghigh is a licensed professional planner. RuPlanning sounds like one too. Go with his advice.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

I have experience in this area as well from the planning/zoning board town perspective. I would go to the town and get the zoning for your specific lot. It's possible that the zoning on your survey is outdated, the zoning officer is confused, or you do have different setbacks for specific reasons. The town maintains all zoning and setback requirements. Town records will tell what is correct, not your survey.

If your survey is wrong and the town says your set back is 25 feet then you shouldn't have to deal with the zoning officer just the construction office.

If it's 30 feet there's nothing you can do to avoid getting a variance. Every town, neighborhood, and lot is different so it's hard to say if it will be an easy process or if you'll meet opposition. 2 feet doesn't sound like much but without knowing anything about your lot and surround properties it's impossible to say.

Some towns will let you talk about what you're thinking and get a read on what their questions/concerns might be during a public portion of one of their meetings. I would talk to the board clerk and see if that would be possible. Now the board will not give you a yes/no kind of answer at that time because they can't do that without seeing your application. But their questions/comments may give you insight into whether you have a difficult case or not.

 

[rubaseball78]

Your town ordinance dictates the setback, not the survey. Survey shows you the location of your house and the property lines. If the setback is 25 ft, you have no issues. If the setback is 30 ft, you need a variance which you probably will not get. If they grant you that variance they would be setting a precedent others can use to request the same variance. Once they approve one, it is difficult to defend denial of others in court. To get that variance, you are going to have to demonstrate hardship.

 

[Knight Shift]

Your town ordinance dictates the setback, not the survey. Survey shows you the location of your house and the property lines. If the setback is 25 ft, you have no issues. If the setback is 30 ft, you need a variance which you probably will not get. If they grant you that variance they would be setting a precedent others can use to request the same variance. Once they approve one, it is difficult to defend denial of others in court. To get that variance, you are going to have to demonstrate hardship.

Would not say "probably will not get." One effective way of making a case for the variance is to show others on the block are non-conforming. It really depends on a variety of factors, and nobody can say whether he will or will not get the variance without more information.

 

[RUJohnny99]

Can I ask why people spend $200,000+ to do this instead of just moving to a house that has a suitable kitchen? Putting $200,000 into a $400,000 house doesn't make it a $600,000 house. It makes it a $400,000 house with a big kitchen.

 

[rc64]

The setback line shown on the survey could be from a Deed restriction adopted and thus imposed by the developer when the area in which the lot is located was subdivided. If that is the case and if it is more restrictive than the applicable zoning ordinance provision, that would have priority and the municipal zoning or planning board would not have jurisdiction to reduce the actual setback within that limit. If so, you would have to seek and gain the approval of everyone who owns a lot that was part of the subdivision - or go to court. Not fun.

Surveys don't usually show zoning ordinance setbacks, etc. They often do show restrictive covenant limits.

 

[Knight Shift]

Can I ask why people spend $200,000+ to do this instead of just moving to a house that has a suitable kitchen? Putting $200,000 into a $400,000 house doesn't make it a $600,000 house. It makes it a $400,000 house with a big kitchen.

Who is spending $200,000, and how do you know how much his house is worth? What if he paid $15,000 and has owned it for 40 years, and he likes his neighbors and neighborhood and just wants a bigger kitchen?

 

[T2Kplus10]

Looking to push a section of the front of my house out approximately 4 ft. The setback from the street listed on my survey is 30ft and I'm currently at 31.67ft. I can apply for a variance, wondering if anyone has any experience with that. I was told I'd have to present plans to the zoning board, but I'd hate to pay for architect plans just to have them rejected.

This is to expand a kitchen, so its living space, not a deck or pool or anything. And only would go 2.5-3 ft past the line.

Also worth noting minimum setbacks in my section of town are supposed to be 25ft, however called my zoning office and they said that whatever's on the survey is what goes (there's a reason why they made it 30ft for my lot).

Before you do anything, you need to resolve the conflict between the two numbers, 25ft and 30ft. As stated before, if your setback is 25ft, you don't need to go to the ZBA and will only need permits. If it is 30ft for your lot, you will need to go through the process. Even though your section of town may be 25th, some lots can be impacted by other issues possibly making the 30ft legit.

A few things to think about. When it comes zoning variances, as per the state's MLUL, nobody is "entitled" to a variance, so you will need to prove why the ZBA should grant it (i.e., positive and negative criteria). Positive criteria can be - we need more room in the kitchen for the size of the family and building in the front of the house is the only option. Negative criteria means that you have to prove that the public will not be impacted or harmed. For example, if many of your neighbors are close to the 25ft set back, you moving your footprint to 27.67ft will not look like out of place and actually be more in line with the neighborhood. Stuff like that.

If you want to chat, send me a conversation request.

 

[CornerTavern]

Looking to push a section of the front of my house out approximately 4 ft. The setback from the street listed on my survey is 30ft and I'm currently at 31.67ft. I can apply for a variance, wondering if anyone has any experience with that. I was told I'd have to present plans to the zoning board, but I'd hate to pay for architect plans just to have them rejected.

This is to expand a kitchen, so its living space, not a deck or pool or anything. And only would go 2.5-3 ft past the line.

Also worth noting minimum setbacks in my section of town are supposed to be 25ft, however called my zoning office and they said that whatever's on the survey is what goes (there's a reason why they made it 30ft for my lot).

Hire a professional planner. That's the most important advice I can give you, as a former zoning board member. Don't skimp on the professionals, and you will give yourself the best chance of getting what you want

 

[Scarlet Pride]

Your town ordinance dictates the setback, not the survey. Survey shows you the location of your house and the property lines. If the setback is 25 ft, you have no issues. If the setback is 30 ft, you need a variance which you probably will not get. If they grant you that variance they would be setting a precedent others can use to request the same variance. Once they approve one, it is difficult to defend denial of others in court. To get that variance, you are going to have to demonstrate hardship.

Yes hardship is what will get will help get the variance but that term sounds more extreme that an it is. It's merely demonstrating why building the kitchen in this manner (requiring a variance) is necessary.

In terms of precedent, that isn't that big of an issue. Granting a setback variance in one case doesn't mean that they will need to grant them in all future cases in his neighborhood. Every application stands on its own. Each case is unique and that is very reason why the board can offer variances. No application is identical to the other and each stands on their own not as precedence or ruling on future applications.

Again without more information it's hard to say anything but no one should consider a variance request a long shot by default. Towns issue variances for residential setbacks all the time. @rc64 brings up a great point that points to the need to visit the town and get to the bottom of it and the potential need to consult a land use attorney.

 

[rubaseball78]

Would not say "probably will not get." One effective way of making a case for the variance is to show others on the block are non-conforming. It really depends on a variety of factors, and nobody can say whether he will or will not get the variance without more information.

Non-conforming isn't the standard. It is whether they have granted others a variance like the one he will be asking for. If the answer is yes, he has a case. If the answer is no, he does not unless he can demonstrate hardship. I owned a two-family house (sold a few years ago). It was non-conforming in that the lot size was under the minimum required by zoning. If I knocked it down, I couldn't rebuild just because there are still other non-conforming two families in town.

 

[koleszar]

Before you do anything, you need to resolve the conflict between the two numbers, 25ft and 30ft. As stated before, if your setback is 25ft, you don't need to go to the ZBA and will only need permits. If it is 30ft for your lot, you will need to go through the process. Even though your section of town may be 25th, some lots can be impacted by other issues possibly making the 30ft legit.

A few things to think about. When it comes zoning variances, as per the state's MLUL, nobody is "entitled" to a variance, so you will need to prove why the ZBA should grant it (i.e., positive and negative criteria). Positive criteria can be - we need more room in the kitchen for the size of the family and building in the front of the house is the only option. Negative criteria means that you have to prove that the public will not be impacted or harmed. For example, if many of your neighbors are close to the 25ft set back, you moving your footprint to 27.67ft will not look like out of place and actually be more in line with the neighborhood. Stuff like that.

If you want to chat, send me a conversation request.

I might actually need your help on this subject in the near future. We are going to put in a new pole barn for tractors/hay. Problem is we are Ag2 zoned and offsets are 50'. I need to put my barn 35' off the road. No where else to put it with septic field, barn behind house/apple orchard, well point for house and actual working outside well. I talked to the zoning officer and he said you have all the talking points to get a variance. Already talked to my neighbors there are only 4(all farms) and they're fine with it. I would really appreciate your help on the talking points needed to get the variance in the near future.

 

[rubaseball78]

May also want to double check your survey or have a new survey done. Mistakes in survey are known to happen.

 

[RU_Planning]

Way too many PPs on this board. The OP is going to be able to negotiate a really low fee for service.

 

[rubaseball78]

I might actually need your help on this subject in the near future. We are going to put in a new pole barn for tractors/hay. Problem is we are Ag2 zoned and offsets are 50'. I need to put my barn 35' off the road. No where else to put it with septic field, barn behind house/apple orchard, well point for house and actual working outside well. I talked to the zoning officer and he said you have all the talking points to get a variance. Already talked to my neighbors there are only 4(all farms) and they're fine with it. I would really appreciate your help on the talking points needed to get the variance in the near future.

Sounds like you have valid points to support a variance. Best bet would be to hire a land use attorney to make sure you cross all the t's and dot the i's.

 

[koleszar]

Sounds like you have valid points to support a variance. Best bet would be to hire a land use attorney to make sure you cross all the t's and dot the i's.

Good advice thanks are these guys expensive?

 

[rubaseball78]

Good advice thanks are these guys expensive?

I'll ask my wife. She is a landscape architect, planner and on the local planning board.

 

[rc64]

The OP should have someone check to see if the 30 foot setback is a Deed restriction rather than a provision in the zoning ordinance. If a Deed restriction, It is likely to be found as an exception in the title insurance policy that he bought when he purchased the house. As I wrote above, if that is the case, then the town cannot give him the relief that he seeks.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I might actually need your help on this subject in the near future. We are going to put in a new pole barn for tractors/hay. Problem is we are Ag2 zoned and offsets are 50'. I need to put my barn 35' off the road. No where else to put it with septic field, barn behind house/apple orchard, well point for house and actual working outside well. I talked to the zoning officer and he said you have all the talking points to get a variance. Already talked to my neighbors there are only 4(all farms) and they're fine with it. I would really appreciate your help on the talking points needed to get the variance in the near future.

Okay, if you are a farm, you are governed by the state's right to farm law. In many cases, this supersedes local planning and zoning boards. Send me a conversation message or your e-mail.

And FYI, I'm not a lawyer looking for business (far, far from it! :) )

 

[T2Kplus10]

The OP should have someone check to see if the 30 foot setback is a Deed restriction rather than a provision in the zoning ordinance. If a Deed restriction, It is likely to be found as an exception in the title insurance policy that he bought when he purchased the house. As I wrote above, if that is the case, then the town cannot give him the relief that he seeks.

This is very good advice.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Who is spending $200,000, and how do you know how much his house is worth? What if he paid $15,000 and has owned it for 40 years, and he likes his neighbors and neighborhood and just wants a bigger kitchen?

Johnny99 doesn't know a lot of things, but that never seems to stop him from poking his nose in.

 

[PurpleR]

If i read the post correctly you do need a variance. I have been through this personally but I am also in the business. Zoning boards in towns can be very different. First I would access the zoning board minutes for your community (usually can be found right on their website) and look to see if similar variances have been issued in the past. You may want to reach out to the Administrative Official for the land use board and see if you can gain any insight from them concerning the issue, although often times they are reluctant to give an opinion because they do not want to be later blamed for misleading you if your efforts fail. I went before the board in my town and I did not hire a lawyer and I did not hire a planner but my addition was pretty significant so I did hire an architect to draw up the plans as I was going to be required to have one prior to getting my construction permits approved. I had a sense that my variance would be approved as I was going only a little over a foot into my side yard set back and was aware of similar variances having been approved in the past. You will be required to contact all the property owners within 200 feet of your property and deliver a certified letter or personally serve the letter that carries the information concerning your requested variance and notifying them of when the zoning hearing is going to take place. In our case we hand delivered every notice and addressed any and all questions our neighbors had concerning the variance. As a result no one came to our hearing to object to the variance. There are many issues that are particular to a specific property (such as if you are on a corner having the house closer to the curb line may make it more difficult for sight triangles etc) however this is just some personal insight.

 

[koleszar]

Okay, if you are a farm, you are governed by the state's right to farm law. In many cases, this supersedes local planning and zoning boards. Send me a conversation message or your e-mail.

And FYI, I'm not a lawyer looking for business (far, far from it! :) )

T2Kplus10 thank you so much the project won't be for at least 7 to 8 months we are currently working with an Environmental engineer(my neighbor luckily) on getting a line of delineation completed for the wetlands to the side of my property(lucky me I bought a 1/2 acre of wetlands yeah). I will definitely be sending you my e-mail address in the near future for some advice. Thank you very much for the current information.

 

[Scarlet Pride]

I might actually need your help on this subject in the near future. We are going to put in a new pole barn for tractors/hay. Problem is we are Ag2 zoned and offsets are 50'. I need to put my barn 35' off the road. No where else to put it with septic field, barn behind house/apple orchard, well point for house and actual working outside well. I talked to the zoning officer and he said you have all the talking points to get a variance. Already talked to my neighbors there are only 4(all farms) and they're fine with it. I would really appreciate your help on the talking points needed to get the variance in the near future.

Based on what you say, you do have a good case. Your talking points are just what you laid out describing your "hardship" and why you need to put the barn where you are going to put it (rather than elsewhere). It's so hard to say whether you should get an attorney or not. It's never a bad thing to get one but sometimes the expenditure is unnecessary. Sometimes it's just as effective to represent yourself and have your builder/engineer come in and describe the project and answer questions.

Again it all depends on the town and the "personality" of the board so it's hard to say. I would go in an talk to the planning board clerk and ask for input or even go to a meeting and speak to them directly. Go watch a few meetings and see if the board has a preference attorneys or work well with residents representing themselves. Most towns/boards are happy to help if you take the time to go in and ask questions.

Also if you are on a county road you should visit the county planning office to check and see their setback requirements as well.

 

[RUJohnny99]

Who is spending $200,000, and how do you know how much his house is worth?

He's not the first person who ever did this.

 

[rubaseball78]

Wet lands will add another complication.

 

[koleszar]

Wet lands will add another complication.

Yeah already working on that with my neighbor who is an environmental engineer and specializes in line of delineation to define transition zone. It's off to the side of the property but doesn't impede us going closer to the street. I got to tell ya when I bought 9 acres of farmland I never thought I would have to deal with this stuff again. Problem is our property actually only has 350' of street frontage and runs in a big L. Me and my neighbors farm are like a huge Tetris puzzle.

 

[JPhoboken]

Go look for another house. You will spend a lot of money trying for a variance you probably won't get. I have been down this road, and seen friends go down this road before. You will be dissapointed and out a lot of money. Talk to an attorney who does land use in your town, and look at the archives of meetings where variance decisions have been made to get an idea of what has been happening. But, beware.

 

[yesrutgers01]

He's not the first person who ever did this.

Do you have any clue what a $200k residential kitchen would look like? Lmao

 

[Knight Shift]

Do you have any clue what a $200k residential kitchen would look like? Lmao

In fairness, he was talking about expanding the whole house 4 additional feet and doing the kitchen.

 

[PeteGiam07]

Im a Civil PE

Your town has codes that define this. A lot of towns have codes you can download these days from their website. Reading codes can be tricky as they are worded in a legal format. Some places have land use regulations reports you can read which are the codes interpreted in an everyday reading format, including easy to interpret tables etc...

It sounds like to me the zoning office is telling you that they rely on the existing conditions survey to deteremine their zoning interpretation which is correct.

A realiable engineer or architect can interperate this for you. If you are required to have signed and sealed drawings the attorney is just going to be an extra cost. You dont need an attorney to represent you in front of the board. If you dont want to present go with an engineer or architect. The process will most definately cost you a bit to have done.

 

[RUtix4me]

What color is your siding?

 

[JMORC2003]

Thanks for all the input! Had a few more conversations with the zoning office and then the survey company and turns out the maps they had on file for my town were from 1940, when the setback was 30ft.

Just have to get a note from zoning saying setbacks are really 25ft and I should be good to go.

According to the town ordinance, if the survey's setback differs from the town, the survey presides since it can also take into account any deed restrictions or encumbrance specific to that property. Thankfully not the case with mine.