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PATH service extending to New Brunswick?

srru86

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Last night 1/12/15 Brian Thompson reported on WNBC-TV News 4 New York that in discussing his opposition to cutting PATH overnight service that Jamie Fox, NJ Transportation Commissioner, was in favor of extending the service "All the way to New Brunswick." In the piece on the internet it is "Aside from slamming the concept of the cuts, he said the Port Authority should consider extending service beyond current plans for Newark International Airport to as far as Union and Middlesex counties."

I know they have been talking about extending from Penn Station to the airport for years. But this is the first I have heard of going beyond that. Of course this is most likely at the dreamy wish list level of planning at the moment and perhaps that is just Fox, but this is a completely new notion to me not even as pie-in-the-sky.

Now let's talk about that monorail linking NB Train station to our various campuses!

20120813231048!Marge_vs._the_Monorail_(promo_card).png

Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit.jpg
 
I saw that Secaucus is going to install a solar powered PRT system (personal rapid transit) as a test model. That is basically what the WVU "monorail" is - a very early version that was set up as a test project. I've read some recent articles and it sounds very interesting. The costs are significantly lower than other rail type projects. Now I don't know much about them to say good or bad but I like the idea - particularly because these "JPODS" are supposed to be solar powered.

Here are a few articles I just found quick for reference. One I read recently was in a New Jersey Planning newsletter and can't find online.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/commuting-solar-power-will-be-tested-new-jersey-180952453/
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/personal-rapid-transit/


I don't understand the rationale of extending PATH to New Brunswick. How would it differ to current rail options? Less stops I suppose. What are the other benefits - and more importantly the costs. Or is this just some pipe dream vision to try to sell the public on privatization of PATH?
This post was edited on 1/13 11:17 AM by Scarlet Pride
 
Perhaps the quote is hyperbole by someone to emphasize support for the extension to Newark. It seems almost inconceivable that the line would be extended all the way down to NB. A nice dream, though.
 
"a plan that would provide direct, one-seat service to and from Manhattan."

This service already exists with NJ Transit... now if they decided to do this before the EWR station was built on the NEC i'd be for this idea, however it is now just a waste of $$
 
Originally posted by Scarlet Pride:
I saw that Secaucus is going to install a solar powered PRT system (personal rapid transit) as a test model. That is basically what the WVU "monorail" is - a very early version that was set up as a test project. I've read some recent articles and it sounds very interesting. The costs are significantly lower than other rail type projects. Now I don't know much about them to say good or bad but I like the idea - particularly because these "JPODS" are supposed to be solar powered.

Here are a few articles I just found quick for reference. One I read recently was in a New Jersey Planning newsletter and can't find online.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/commuting-solar-power-will-be-tested-new-jersey-180952453/
http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/personal-rapid-transit/


I don't understand the rationale of extending PATH to New Brunswick. How would it differ to current rail options? Less stops I suppose. What are the other benefits - and more importantly the costs. Or is this just some pipe dream vision to try to sell the public on privatization of PATH?
This post was edited on 1/13 11:17 AM by Scarlet Pride
The costs are lower becusae the utility is much lower. Rutgers buses transport 70,000 people (presumably actually person-trips) a day. NO way could anything like the WVU thing handle that - at least with any reasonable footprint. Frankly, even with light rail - you would still need the busses for intra campus transport.

As for PATH to NB - what would be the point? Thats far too long for what is essentially an intracity subway service (just happens that the city actually crosses state lines.) Even extending it to the airport seems like a waste of money.
This post was edited on 1/13 1:47 PM by derleider
 
Originally posted by rufancoe00:
"a plan that would provide direct, one-seat service to and from Manhattan."

This service already exists with NJ Transit... now if they decided to do this before the EWR station was built on the NEC i'd be for this idea, however it is now just a waste of $$
The advantage of PATH service to EWR is that it provides one-seat service to lower Manhattan. NJT provides one-seat service to mid-town.

Extending PATH service to EWR is extending service approximately 2.5 miles (actually less, since the PATH tracks already extend about a mile south of Newark Penn Station).
 
I have never taken the NEC train to Newark airport. How much of a hassle is it to get from the stop to the terminals? If it is, maybe a Path line could make things more convenient. It's hard for me to see having a Path stop just to serve lower Manhattan; it's a pretty simple subway right from Penn Station to lower Manhattan.
 
The intention of the PA is to extend the PATH to the aforementioned station and NOT the actual terminals. If they were to extend the PATH to the actual terminals, few people would use the NEC airport station
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
I have never taken the NEC train to Newark airport. How much of a hassle is it to get from the stop to the terminals? If it is, maybe a Path line could make things more convenient. It's hard for me to see having a Path stop just to serve lower Manhattan; it's a pretty simple subway right from Penn Station to lower Manhattan.
It's easy. The problem is that people going to lower Manhattan have to "switch" at Newark Penn from the PATH to NJT for one stop.

As someone who lives walking distance from the PATH, before they go expanding it they need to commit to 24/7 service and improve the overall service.

The only way Christie will get behind this is if the NB mayor endorses him. Cape May would get Port Authority funds if they promise to support Christie.

They also need to extend the 7 into NJ.

NB needs a light rail that will connect it with the surrounding communities, improving everyone's access to transit and necessities. It's way more important that NB residents get to shopping in Pway or East Brunswick residents to get to a train and dinner in NB, than someone from NB gets to JC, despite that being a roundtrip I make at least 7 times a year.
 
i seriously don't think that Christie or Cahill would endorse extending the PATH to Brunswick when NJT already runs that route. Their constituents laugh them out of office (Cahill) and destroy any chance at a legacy they hope to leave (Christie) in NJ. I DO see the possibility of both of them endorsing a people mover or BRT system for Rutgers and the surrounding community tho.
 
It was tabled, thankfully. Northeastern NJ's economy has been saved.

I would be shocked if Christie backed any public works project not wanted by a supporter of his. I don't recall how he is with Cahill. If we had a governor, maybe the first ever, like Fulop, that lived a substantial chunk of his life relying on public transportation for part of his life, you'd see the change all over. Neither Christie nor Cuomo ever struggled for anything, nevermind transportation.
 
Light rail from the 18/9 intersection in Old Bridge to NB along with light rail from the Bridgewater Mall area to NB would really open things up. Combine it with a Rutgers monorail system and watch out!

And,I've always thought RU should buy the land where Sears is now and convert the parcel into a university transportation center with a big parking deck.
 
That light rail is probably too ambitious. Most of that area also has OK public transportation- it's the area right around RU that really is oddly disconnected.

I agree about Sears- eventually something else will be there, and it should be something advantageous to RU.
 
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO

Fantasy RV Light Rail
 
Originally posted by Korbermeister:
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO
I think the key here would be like making it like the Purple Line that is proposed for the DC area connecting the two branches of the DC Metro red line, the green line, and the Orange Line. The line also cuts right through the College Park campus - so it will offer a good idea of how to design a light rail line to coexist within a suburban style college campus.

In this case, I would say if you go out to 287 (to hit the business parks - which is a must for such a line) it would indeed make sense to go all the way to Bound Brook or Dunellen to hit the Raritan Line since you would have to go all the way up to Newark to transfer back to the Northeast Corridor.

On the other side though - it probably doesn't make sense to extend to South Amboy, when you can transfer up at Rahway anyway. Taking the train wouldnt be that much slower than taking the light rail, based on the current two train vs direct bus route time. Certainly would be a phase 3 or 4 of the plan.

If you want to get Shore riders to NB quicker, then they need to build the southern MOM alternative (Lakehurst to Freehold to South Bruns), which should be a priority for the next transit oriented governor.

Also, on your map, I would extend the Livingston line up to the Edison Trains station (along the existing unused rail right of way).
 
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by Korbermeister:
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO
I think the key here would be like making it like the Purple Line that is proposed for the DC area connecting the two branches of the DC Metro red line, the green line, and the Orange Line. The line also cuts right through the College Park campus - so it will offer a good idea of how to design a light rail line to coexist within a suburban style college campus.

In this case, I would say if you go out to 287 (to hit the business parks - which is a must for such a line) it would indeed make sense to go all the way to Bound Brook or Dunellen to hit the Raritan Line since you would have to go all the way up to Newark to transfer back to the Northeast Corridor.

On the other side though - it probably doesn't make sense to extend to South Amboy, when you can transfer up at Rahway anyway. Taking the train wouldnt be that much slower than taking the light rail, based on the current two train vs direct bus route time. Certainly would be a phase 3 or 4 of the plan.

If you want to get Shore riders to NB quicker, then they need to build the southern MOM alternative (Lakehurst to Freehold to South Bruns), which should be a priority for the next transit oriented governor.

Also, on your map, I would extend the Livingston line up to the Edison Trains station (along the existing unused rail right of way).
I think of Metrorail as a heavy rail line. Is the Purple Line going to be lighter? If so, how?
 
The problem with the MOM line is the NIMBYs.

I think the MOM line + a light rail that connects EB/NB/Pway would be a solid solution. Maybe extend the line to the Edison NJT station.
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by Korbermeister:
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO
I think the key here would be like making it like the Purple Line that is proposed for the DC area connecting the two branches of the DC Metro red line, the green line, and the Orange Line. The line also cuts right through the College Park campus - so it will offer a good idea of how to design a light rail line to coexist within a suburban style college campus.

In this case, I would say if you go out to 287 (to hit the business parks - which is a must for such a line) it would indeed make sense to go all the way to Bound Brook or Dunellen to hit the Raritan Line since you would have to go all the way up to Newark to transfer back to the Northeast Corridor.

On the other side though - it probably doesn't make sense to extend to South Amboy, when you can transfer up at Rahway anyway. Taking the train wouldnt be that much slower than taking the light rail, based on the current two train vs direct bus route time. Certainly would be a phase 3 or 4 of the plan.

If you want to get Shore riders to NB quicker, then they need to build the southern MOM alternative (Lakehurst to Freehold to South Bruns), which should be a priority for the next transit oriented governor.

Also, on your map, I would extend the Livingston line up to the Edison Trains station (along the existing unused rail right of way).
I think of Metrorail as a heavy rail line. Is the Purple Line going to be lighter? If so, how?
Purple Line is not part of Metrorail. It will connect several Metro lines, but isnt the same trains, and I dont think is even run by the same people. Its going to be a light rail like Baltimore has - smaller, lighter trains going slower with more frequent stops, and not entirely grade separated (i.e. I think some will run in the street, and some will cross streets at grade).
 
Path to the airport makes perfect sense. I've gotten in too late for NJT & have had to cab it to NYC or HOBO. Not fun on the wallet.

The NB light rail is as dead as they come. I would have love to see a project linked from s Amboy, through the brunswicks but it'll never happen. It had approval from all in 2000 and it shit the bed.

MOM from Lakehurst to s Brunswick will eventually see the light of day because it's needed.... Hopefully.
 
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by Korbermeister:
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO
I think the key here would be like making it like the Purple Line that is proposed for the DC area connecting the two branches of the DC Metro red line, the green line, and the Orange Line. The line also cuts right through the College Park campus - so it will offer a good idea of how to design a light rail line to coexist within a suburban style college campus.

In this case, I would say if you go out to 287 (to hit the business parks - which is a must for such a line) it would indeed make sense to go all the way to Bound Brook or Dunellen to hit the Raritan Line since you would have to go all the way up to Newark to transfer back to the Northeast Corridor.

On the other side though - it probably doesn't make sense to extend to South Amboy, when you can transfer up at Rahway anyway. Taking the train wouldnt be that much slower than taking the light rail, based on the current two train vs direct bus route time. Certainly would be a phase 3 or 4 of the plan.

If you want to get Shore riders to NB quicker, then they need to build the southern MOM alternative (Lakehurst to Freehold to South Bruns), which should be a priority for the next transit oriented governor.

Also, on your map, I would extend the Livingston line up to the Edison Trains station (along the existing unused rail right of way).
I think of Metrorail as a heavy rail line. Is the Purple Line going to be lighter? If so, how?
Purple Line is not part of Metrorail. It will connect several Metro lines, but isnt the same trains, and I dont think is even run by the same people. Its going to be a light rail like Baltimore has - smaller, lighter trains going slower with more frequent stops, and not entirely grade separated (i.e. I think some will run in the street, and some will cross streets at grade).
Thanks. Do you think that makes sense? After all, more and more people commute between suburbs. And if this line is going to run between Metro lines, it is going to be making some pretty long trips that might be inconvenient by light rail, right? What do you think? I haven't been on Metrorail since a few years ago, when I was just shocked by how poorly the system ran -- trains were often out and there were long delays between trains.
 
Originally posted by srru86:
Last night 1/12/15 Brian Thompson reported on WNBC-TV News 4 New York that in discussing his opposition to cutting PATH overnight service that Jamie Fox, NJ Transportation Commissioner, was in favor of extending the service "All the way to New Brunswick." In the piece on the internet it is "Aside from slamming the concept of the cuts, he said the Port Authority should consider extending service beyond current plans for Newark International Airport to as far as Union and Middlesex counties."

I know they have been talking about extending from Penn Station to the airport for years. But this is the first I have heard of going beyond that. Of course this is most likely at the dreamy wish list level of planning at the moment and perhaps that is just Fox, but this is a completely new notion to me not even as pie-in-the-sky.

Now let's talk about that monorail linking NB Train station to our various campuses!

20120813231048!Marge_vs._the_Monorail_(promo_card).png

Morgantown_Personal_Rapid_Transit.jpg
Hey srru86- Do you know if there is a clip online of Jamie Fox's statement regarding bringing path service to New Brunswick?
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Originally posted by derleider:

Originally posted by Korbermeister:
OK transportation isn't going to be sufficient in an area that wants and continues to attract more and more visitors/ residents. The public transportation between the east and west areas of jersey south of route 22 are slim to none. Linking new brunswick/piscataway rutgers campuses with central nj thru light rail or BRT is a pipe dream that needs to come true if the area wants to stay competitive and accessible IMHO
I think the key here would be like making it like the Purple Line that is proposed for the DC area connecting the two branches of the DC Metro red line, the green line, and the Orange Line. The line also cuts right through the College Park campus - so it will offer a good idea of how to design a light rail line to coexist within a suburban style college campus.

In this case, I would say if you go out to 287 (to hit the business parks - which is a must for such a line) it would indeed make sense to go all the way to Bound Brook or Dunellen to hit the Raritan Line since you would have to go all the way up to Newark to transfer back to the Northeast Corridor.

On the other side though - it probably doesn't make sense to extend to South Amboy, when you can transfer up at Rahway anyway. Taking the train wouldnt be that much slower than taking the light rail, based on the current two train vs direct bus route time. Certainly would be a phase 3 or 4 of the plan.

If you want to get Shore riders to NB quicker, then they need to build the southern MOM alternative (Lakehurst to Freehold to South Bruns), which should be a priority for the next transit oriented governor.

Also, on your map, I would extend the Livingston line up to the Edison Trains station (along the existing unused rail right of way).
I think of Metrorail as a heavy rail line. Is the Purple Line going to be lighter? If so, how?
Purple Line is not part of Metrorail. It will connect several Metro lines, but isnt the same trains, and I dont think is even run by the same people. Its going to be a light rail like Baltimore has - smaller, lighter trains going slower with more frequent stops, and not entirely grade separated (i.e. I think some will run in the street, and some will cross streets at grade).
Thanks. Do you think that makes sense? After all, more and more people commute between suburbs. And if this line is going to run between Metro lines, it is going to be making some pretty long trips that might be inconvenient by light rail, right? What do you think? I haven't been on Metrorail since a few years ago, when I was just shocked by how poorly the system ran -- trains were often out and there were long delays between trains.
I think its the best they can hope for financially. Maryland is in a huge transportation budget hole because they wasted all of this money on an Outer Beltway segment in that same general area (ICC). But generally even in that area, the burbs don't contribute enough riders between each other to warrant full rail service - at least over this relatively short segment.

One thing about perimeter service is - once you get more than about one third of the way around, its quicker to go straight through.. Of course you can't go straight through - you need to switch trains. But Metro, when it isn't delayed, comes often enough during rush hours to still make it faster than a perimeter route over long distances. So, you would get alot of extra expense, without many extra riders.

Yes, Metro is relatively poorly run still - although still - its probably at worst the fourth best transit system in the US behind NY, Boston, and maybe SF.
 
Originally posted by RU G:
Hey srru86- Do you know if there is a clip online of Jamie Fox's statement regarding bringing path service to New Brunswick?
No, I had not seen that.
 
I'm as big of a transit advocate as you will get but even I don't think any of this has a prayer of happening. My big hope is that self driving cars/buses save us.

Transit we need in NJ in order of priority (IMO, of course)

New tunnel(s) into NYC for NJ transit and/or 7 line extention to Secaucus.
Complete signaling/platform extensions on the PATH and use articulated trains to increase capacity.
Extend the Hudson Bergen light rail (http://www.northernbranchcorridor.com/).
Something along the lines of what is being discussed in this thread.

Really, BRT is what should be going in most places, it's cheaper as just as efficient as light rail. The problem is it is subject to pressure to give up the lanes for regular traffic so it is not a great idea in US for political reasons.
 
Originally posted by MoobyCow:
I'm as big of a transit advocate as you will get but even I don't think any of this has a prayer of happening. My big hope is that self driving cars/buses save us.

Transit we need in NJ in order of priority (IMO, of course)

New tunnel(s) into NYC for NJ transit and/or 7 line extention to Secaucus.
Complete signaling/platform extensions on the PATH and use articulated trains to increase capacity.
Extend the Hudson Bergen light rail (http://www.northernbranchcorridor.com/).
Something along the lines of what is being discussed in this thread.

Really, BRT is what should be going in most places, it's cheaper as just as efficient as light rail. The problem is it is subject to pressure to give up the lanes for regular traffic so it is not a great idea in US for political reasons.
Self-driving cars will make it worse. Heres why

Right now, how long I wan to commute is largely dictated by the fact that I dont want to get up really really early. But if I can sleep, or work (and count it against my time at the office), then I can live two hours away. Buses are better, but still have to deal with traffic.

The issue is jobs are still clustered in major cities- and there is only so much capacity you can add to the main highways into those cities. DC has a huge problem with this - as there are really only two or three major routes serving Northern Virginia into DC. But how much more would you want to tear up downtown DC and replace it with more routes in from the burbs?

BRT isnt as efficient as light rail. Buses hold fewer people than trains. And as you said - reality is - BRT in the US often ends up just being - express bus with fancy branding.
This post was edited on 1/21 1:10 PM by derleider
 
Originally posted by MoobyCow:
I'm as big of a transit advocate as you will get but even I don't think any of this has a prayer of happening. My big hope is that self driving cars/buses save us.

Transit we need in NJ in order of priority (IMO, of course)

New tunnel(s) into NYC for NJ transit and/or 7 line extention to Secaucus.
Complete signaling/platform extensions on the PATH and use articulated trains to increase capacity.
Extend the Hudson Bergen light rail (http://www.northernbranchcorridor.com/).
Something along the lines of what is being discussed in this thread.

Really, BRT is what should be going in most places, it's cheaper as just as efficient as light rail. The problem is it is subject to pressure to give up the lanes for regular traffic so it is not a great idea in US for political reasons.
Agree...would add MOM rail line. We also could use a fix at the shore to not have people have to transfer at Long Branch to go further south.

In terms of roads, there should be a ring road around Morristown connecting 287, 24, 280 and 80.
 
Der,

I think the thought with self driving cars goes like this:

A large % of traffic problems is caused by poor driving. All the cars/buses driving efficiently increases the capacity of the roads a great deal. Imagine the capacity of our roads with 1/5th the number of accidents and no one merging poorly.Not having cars circling/looking for parking takes a huge amount of traffic off of the roads.
Princeton study on autonomous cars:


Research has shown that ACC has the potential to increase highway capacity, but that augmenting ACC with V2V technology, called Cooperative Adaptive Cruise Control (CACC)can produce dramatic increases in highway capacity from 103 per cent to 273 percent.
Whether or not any of that plays out as hoped.... who knows. Predicting the future is hard.

As for BRT vs Light Rail, my understanding is the capacity is pretty similar, but incredibly variable. In our area LRT might be better choice. Heavy rail moves more people though.

http://www.nctr.usf.edu/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/16.2_currie.pdf (page 58)
http://iurd.berkeley.edu/wp/2013-01.pdf See page 25
 
Originally posted by derleider:



The issue is jobs are still clustered in major cities- and there is only so much capacity you can add to the main highways into those cities. DC has a huge problem with this - as there are really only two or three major routes serving Northern Virginia into DC. But how much more would you want to tear up downtown DC and replace it with more routes in from the burbs?

BRT isnt as efficient as light rail. Buses hold fewer people than trains. And as you said - reality is - BRT in the US often ends up just being - express bus with fancy branding.
This post was edited on 1/21 1:10 PM by derleider
The story of the last half-century is that of jobs moving into the suburbs from the urban core. In many places, the worst problems are not downtown. but in the burbs on roads that were not built to handle the capacities they now handle. Moreover, problems of moving people into downtown can be ameliorated by mass transit to some extent, but densities aren't high enough in the suburbs to make mass transit practicable.
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Originally posted by derleider:



The issue is jobs are still clustered in major cities- and there is only so much capacity you can add to the main highways into those cities. DC has a huge problem with this - as there are really only two or three major routes serving Northern Virginia into DC. But how much more would you want to tear up downtown DC and replace it with more routes in from the burbs?

BRT isnt as efficient as light rail. Buses hold fewer people than trains. And as you said - reality is - BRT in the US often ends up just being - express bus with fancy branding.
This post was edited on 1/21 1:10 PM by derleider
The story of the last half-century is that of jobs moving into the suburbs from the urban core. In many places, the worst problems are not downtown. but in the burbs on roads that were not built to handle the capacities they now handle. Moreover, problems of moving people into downtown can be ameliorated by mass transit to some extent, but densities aren't high enough in the suburbs to make mass transit practicable.
Camden - that just shows the folly of developers and the crooked state officials who let them get away with it. As you expand outward the area you have to cover expands at the square of the distance. But for some reason planners thought we could just build outward and outward and make it work. Americans are slowly unlearning that.
 
Originally posted by derleider:
Camden - that just shows the folly of developers and the crooked state officials who let them get away with it. As you expand outward the area you have to cover expands at the square of the distance. But for some reason planners thought we could just build outward and outward and make it work. Americans are slowly unlearning that.
Companies are also re-learning the benefits of having a larger labor pool to pull from in population centers. I can easily find a job (or be found for one) in NYC. If I had a job in Parsippany and had organized my life around that, I may or may not be available to work for a similar company with an opening in Edison.
 
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