The MBA program at Rutgers is ranked highly. But amid 2 lawsuits, what do college rankings mean?

[Tango Two]

The MBA program at Rutgers is ranked highly. But amid 2 lawsuits, what do college rankings mean?

https://www.nj.com/education/2022/0...2-lawsuits-what-do-college-rankings-mean.html

 

[RUnTeX]

The rankings certainly appear to be as much about gamesmanship as anything else. You have to play to keep up with the Joneses, but misreporting data, if found to be the case, should probably result in having to be suspended from participating for some period of time.

RBS has climbed into the top 50 now (tied at #45) in the latest USNWR B-school rankings for full-time MBA so there's been some recent improvement in the rankings, and hopefully improvement in the program itself as well as the part-time program and other grad programs at RBS.

 

[retired711]

Just about everyone in academe knows that the rankings are nonsense. Unfortunately, potential applicants and their parents think they're important, so schools have to do things to game their rankings. Some schools took a while to realize they had to do this.

Note that the dispute at the business school is not like Temple, where an administrator lied about the data. Rather, the allegation is that the school found temporary jobs for graduates so that the data would be better than it otherwise would have been. On the one hand, this was good for the graduates because they had jobs, at least temporarily. On the other hand, it gives a deceptive picture to potential applicants. It's not a good practice, but it at least doesn't involve telling outright lies, and, as I say, it does give some benefit to graduates who otherwise would be unemployed.

But the key is whether the allegation about the Business School is correct. As other posters have pointed out, the source is a disgruntled employee who undoubtedly has every motive to exaggerate what may have been going on. We need to let the judicial process work itself out.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I think the rankings matter more when there's a pretty stand curriculum, eg law or med school. Not sure if MBA falls into that category.

Pretty much everyone in the US and now Canada takes the same first year classes in law school, so the comparison is more apt. A first year undergrad at RU isn't necessarily taking the same first year classes as elsewhere. From what I recall, RU had less requirements for gen ed than a lot of other schools, and double majoring is pretty well etched into the culture of the liberal arts programs. People from elsewhere are kind of surprised that I had two majors but at RU if you didn't and weren't in one of the professional schools, you came off as lazy lol.

 

[retired711]

I think the rankings matter more when there's a pretty stand curriculum, eg law or med school. Not sure if MBA falls into that category.

Pretty much everyone in the US and now Canada takes the same first year classes in law school, so the comparison is more apt. A first year undergrad at RU isn't necessarily taking the same first year classes as elsewhere. From what I recall, RU had less requirements for gen ed than a lot of other schools, and double majoring is pretty well etched into the culture of the liberal arts programs. People from elsewhere are kind of surprised that I had two majors but at RU if you didn't and weren't in one of the professional schools, you came off as lazy lol.

I may be wrong, but I think the first year curriculum at MBA programs is pretty uniform, although perhaps not as much as in law and medicine. In addition, I doubt that anyone who takes the rankings seriously realizes that they have more applicability to professional schools than to undergraduate institutions.

Yes, many students in the liberal arts/humanities have double majors. I will sound *very* old, but I think this practice interferes with a student's ability to get a well-rounded education. I think it would be better to have more gen ed requirements so that students get a broader perspective and learn about fields other than their own.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I may be wrong, but I think the first year curriculum at MBA programs is pretty uniform, although perhaps not as much as in law and medicine. In addition, I doubt that anyone who takes the rankings seriously realizes that they have more applicability to professional schools than to undergraduate institutions.

Yes, many students in the liberal arts/humanities have double majors. I will sound *very* old, but I think this practice interferes with a student's ability to get a well-rounded education. I think it would be better to have more gen ed requirements so that students get a broader perspective and learn about fields other than their own.

I was bored to tears in geology (aka "rocks for jocks"). I'd have much rathered take another language, for example. I have still used my majors in my personal and work lives, which isn't always super common for someone that goes to law school, so I'm glad I got to double.

 

[retired711]

I was bored to tears in geology (aka "rocks for jocks"). I'd have much rathered take another language, for example. I have still used my majors in my personal and work lives, which isn't always super common for someone that goes to law school, so I'm glad I got to double.

Yes, courses like "rocks for jocks" and "Gods for clods" are generally terrible. Schools do not put nearly enough effort into general education courses. I also wish in retrospect I had taken another language. If I had it to do over again, I would pick Latin because (a) there's a lot of good literature in Latin; (b) there are still a lot of useful phrases in Italian; (c) it gives insight into learning other Romance languages and (d) I am much better at learning to read and write a language than at speaking it. I took four years of high school French and two quarters of college French, and when I go to Paris, all I can say is "Pardon me, I do not speak French. Do you speak English?"

(Actually, this is a good policy; the French hate it when people start by speaking English to them. Everyone, except the bathroom attendant in the Luxembourg Gardens, was very friendly when I started this way.)

I can also find the Metro exits because I know the word "sortir."

 

[T2Kplus20]

I may be wrong, but I think the first year curriculum at MBA programs is pretty uniform, although perhaps not as much as in law and medicine. In addition, I doubt that anyone who takes the rankings seriously realizes that they have more applicability to professional schools than to undergraduate institutions.

Yes, many students in the liberal arts/humanities have double majors. I will sound *very* old, but I think this practice interferes with a student's ability to get a well-rounded education. I think it would be better to have more gen ed requirements so that students get a broader perspective and learn about fields other than their own.

As an undergrad, I did a 5-year dual degree program. BS/Chemical Engineering, BA/History, and also a minor in Physics. My 2 favorite courses were Astrophysics and 19th Century American Lit. The former was due to the awesome subject. The latter was because the professor was f'ing insane (in a good way).

RU always had a diverse range of electives to take. :)

 

[NotInRHouse]

Yes, courses like "rocks for jocks" and "Gods for clods" are generally terrible. Schools do not put nearly enough effort into general education courses. I also wish in retrospect I had taken another language. If I had it to do over again, I would pick Latin because (a) there's a lot of good literature in Latin; (b) there are still a lot of useful phrases in Italian; (c) it gives insight into learning other Romance languages and (d) I am much better at learning to read and write a language than at speaking it. I took four years of high school French and two quarters of college French, and when I go to Paris, all I can say is "Pardon me, I do not speak French. Do you speak English?"

(Actually, this is a good policy; the French hate it when people start by speaking English to them. Everyone, except the bathroom attendant in the Luxembourg Gardens, was very friendly when I started this way.)

I can also find the Metro exits because I know the word "sortir."

I would say start with a latin language in use. If you learn Spanish it will be very easy to learn Portuguese and fairly easy to learn Italian, and at least read French.

I agree re: Paris...I started speaking Spanish or Italian and that always got better results for directions than asking in English, even though they'd inevitably start speaking English after you greeted them in something else. It's definitely interesting since many French people seem to speak decent English, but aren't like some other European countries where people want to practice theirs (eg most of Northern Europe).

 

[retired711]

I would say start with a latin language in use. If you learn Spanish it will be very easy to learn Portuguese and fairly easy to learn Italian, and at least read French.

I agree re: Paris...I started speaking Spanish or Italian and that always got better results for directions than asking in English, even though they'd inevitably start speaking English after you greeted them in something else. It's definitely interesting since many French people seem to speak decent English, but aren't like some other European countries where people want to practice theirs (eg most of Northern Europe).

The Netherlands is an example of a country in which people like to practice English. Young people learn by watching American TV. Many were excellent, and that's not counting those in tourism-related industries. I think this is partly because the Dutch realize that their country is small enough that it isn't reasonable to expect foreigners to learn their language. The French, on the other hand, still have the idea that their culture is dominant, something that hasn't been true for a long time.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The Netherlands is an example of a country in which people like to practice English. Young people learn by watching American TV. Many were excellent, and that's not counting those in tourism-related industries. I think this is partly because the Dutch realize that their country is small enough that it isn't reasonable to expect foreigners to learn their language. The French, on the other hand, still have the idea that their culture is dominant, something that hasn't been true for a long time.

Plus Dutch is the closest living language to English, so it's relatively easy for them to learn. Also why German, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic speakers have an easier time- they're related to English, and English is a simpler language grammatically, though not necessarily in spelling.

 

[retired711]

Plus Dutch is the closest living language to English, so it's relatively easy for them to learn. Also why German, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish and Icelandic speakers have an easier time- they're related to English, and English is a simpler language grammatically, though not necessarily in spelling.

RosettaStone agrees with you that Dutch is closest to English. Perhaps you're right that those who speak languages closest to German have the easiest time learning English -- but I'm not at all sure that those who speak English find those languages the easiest to learn. Certainly no one who took German in school has ever told me that German was easy to learn. And I must say that I found it difficult to master even the simplest Dutch phrases when I was about to visit.

 

[NotInRHouse]

RosettaStone agrees with you that Dutch is closest to English. Perhaps you're right that those who speak languages closest to German have the easiest time learning English -- but I'm not at all sure that those who speak English find those languages the easiest to learn. Certainly no one who took German in school has ever told me that German was easy to learn. And I must say that I found it difficult to master even the simplest Dutch phrases when I was about to visit.

Yes, it's definitely a one way street. Because English is the "simpler" language grammatically, it's easier for them. It might be easier for us to learn German spelling because it's pronounced how it's written, but certainly not things like cases and conjugations (we basically have only two whereas they have 5/6).

Depending who you ask, typically the easiest languages you will hear in response for English speakers to learn are Spanish, Indonesian or perhaps Afrikaans. Spanish and Indonesian because of "easy" plural formation (Spanish you add an S like English, Indonesian you say the word twice) and Afrikaans because it's simplified Dutch that doesn't have some the conjugation quirks that Dutch has. Swedish is considered on the simpler side, but has articles that can be attached to words. Portuguese also has -S plurals, but its pronounciation is way more complex than Spanish which has just 5 vocalic sounds. These vocalic sounds are the same as Italian, but Italian has more complex plurals.

 

[retired711]

Your explanations make a lot of sense. I have a colleague who is *very* good with languages who has become very fluent in Italian and in fact wrote a book based almost entirely on Italian sources. I have heard Charlize Theron, whose first language is Afrikaans, speak that language; it sure doesn't sound easy!

There are a number of languages that are phonetic. One of the challenges for those learning English is that English definitely is not: "break" rhymes with "steak" but not with "bleak" or "streak," although they all end with "eak." "Mow" rhymes with "low" but not with "how" or "cow." "B-o-w" can rhyme with either "low" or "cow" depending on whether we're talking a bow to the Queen or a bow to shoot arrows with. The staff in NATO headquarters in Paris put together a long poem illustrating these issues: a Frenchman said he would rather do six months of hard labor than try to pronounce six lines.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Haha yep. This is why in other countries you often see advertising about learning to speak English in months...but never read/write or any kind of full fluency so quickly.

 

[retired711]

Haha yep. This is why in other countries you often see advertising about learning to speak English in months...but never read/write or any kind of full fluency so quickly.

My experience is contrary. I taught a fair number of students from abroad. South Korea for a while subsidized its young people to study in American schools. There were students born in other countries, too, such as Russia. Their spoken English was weak, but they could read and write excellently. I never could figure out from an exam that someone wasn't a native English speaker.

 

[NotInRHouse]

My experience is contrary. I taught a fair number of students from abroad. South Korea for a while subsidized its young people to study in American schools. There were students born in other countries, too, such as Russia. Their spoken English was weak, but they could read and write excellently. I never could figure out from an exam that someone wasn't a native English speaker.

South Korea has a national college entrance exam that has English as a component, so that definitely makes sense for them. Not sure about Russia these days. I know in Latin America you often see advertising that says something like "speak English in 6 months" and even on the Spanish language channels here, they offer services that basically teach you English pronounciation but writing them as you would in Spanish- eg, speaking "eagle" but writing "iguil."

 

[retired711]

South Korea has a national college entrance exam that has English as a component, so that definitely makes sense for them. Not sure about Russia these days. I know in Latin America you often see advertising that says something like "speak English in 6 months" and even on the Spanish language channels here, they offer services that basically teach you English pronounciation but writing them as you would in Spanish- eg, speaking "eagle" but writing "iguil."

I'm sure what you say is right for those who are looking for only a "quick and dirty" knowledge of English -- enough to carry on a telephone conversation, for instance -- but those seeking proficiency are able to master English grammar and spelling even though they may not be fully comfortable speaking the language. Probably this came from extensive reading of English. I never saw an exam with the kind of spellings you suggest.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I'm sure what you say is right for those who are looking for only a "quick and dirty" knowledge of English -- enough to carry on a telephone conversation, for instance -- but those seeking proficiency are able to master English grammar and spelling even though they may not be fully comfortable speaking the language. Probably this came from extensive reading of English. I never saw an exam with the kind of spellings you suggest.

Yes...I've noticed from talking to people abroad unless they need it for business or school context, it's mostly what they use in a third country (eg, a German speaking to a Spaniard in a hostel in Thailand) or for movies and music. And in countries that don't dub, they pick up English that way in TVs and movies, all listened to but with text in their own language.

Even myself, I end up using languages more so spoken versus written for most contexts. Outside a contract I reviewed in Spanish years ago and some emails I sent on it, which I wrote in both languages, it's more so in person discussion. Of course we still learned all the grammar and if I mess something up I still think about what a professor or teacher would have said, lol.

 

[retired711]

Yes...I've noticed from talking to people abroad unless they need it for business or school context, it's mostly what they use in a third country (eg, a German speaking to a Spaniard in a hostel in Thailand) or for movies and music. And in countries that don't dub, they pick up English that way in TVs and movies, all listened to but with text in their own language.

Even myself, I end up using languages more so spoken versus written for most contexts. Outside a contract I reviewed in Spanish years ago and some emails I sent on it, which I wrote in both languages, it's more so in person discussion. Of course we still learned all the grammar and if I mess something up I still think about what a professor or teacher would have said, lol.

Thanks for your responses. I have enjoyed corresponding with you about this and other subjects. I have decided to drop off this board permanently. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Everytime I come on here, somebody is rude, so I'm going to stop trying. Please accept my best wishes, and that goes for all of the nice people who are here. Unfortunately, the asses spoil it for everyone.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Thanks for your responses. I have enjoyed corresponding with you about this and other subjects. I have decided to drop off this board permanently. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Everytime I come on here, somebody is rude, so I'm going to stop trying. Please accept my best wishes, and that goes for all of the nice people who are here. Unfortunately, the asses spoil it for everyone.

I get it...the behavior of a small minority gets aided and abetted. But I can't surrender a board that should be emblematic of my alma mater to them.

 

[RUnTeX]

Thanks for your responses. I have enjoyed corresponding with you about this and other subjects. I have decided to drop off this board permanently. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Everytime I come on here, somebody is rude, so I'm going to stop trying. Please accept my best wishes, and that goes for all of the nice people who are here. Unfortunately, the asses spoil it for everyone.

Sorry to see you go, clp. Was nice to see you back for this most recent interval after the earlier hiatus. All the best.

The poster you had a dialogue with has issues being civil on these forums and is unnecessarily argumentative. The ignore button helps a bit.

 

[e5fdny]

Sorry to see you go, clp. Was nice to see you back for this most recent interval after the earlier hiatus. All the best.

The poster you had a dialogue with has issues being civil on these forums and is unnecessarily argumentative. The ignore button helps a bit.

@camdenlawprof

Listen to what @RUnTeX said.

I don’t use it a lot but for those that are on it…I haven’t been wrong yet. And it’s not so much about disagreeing with the person as it’s more what they DON’T bring to the conversation to begin with.