The Row the Boat guy can't stop spread offenses either
- Thread starter Caliknight
- Start date
Been watching some of these Mac games involving the likes of Carey Campbell babers and fleck. I am not developing a strong lean towards one from these snippets. Better look harder at the resumes.
There's only 1 MAC coach I'd be interested in and that's Babers. His defense still makes me a little wary but I like his offenses and what he's been able to do with their offense. He did change DCs this year too so at least that makes me think there's some attention being paid to that deficiency. There have been some slight jumps in the defensive stats too but not enough to be sure how much it's improving. One stat though which I think should be included in with total/scoring defense stats is the yds/play stat when it comes to a spread team. They run at a such a tempo that naturally more plays will be run so to some degree you'd expect more points/yards be let up by their defenses. Yards/play speaks a little more to the defensive efficiency.
As far as Babers stats on defense (total/scoring/yds per play)
2014 118 108 98
2015 97 76 62 (as of last week)
So their defensive numbers have improved slightly this year but is it enough and can you tell if there's a trend there. Two years probably isn't enough to say and the jumps aren't big enough (except for the yds/play) to say just how much they've improved.
I think pairing him with a DC like Don Brown at BC, a Mike Elko at WF type might be helpful to him. Both with northeast ties and with Elko even NJ ties.
As far as Fleck, never liked him and still don't. Too much flash, not enough substance. Campbell looks good enough but something is just missing for me. I think it's that he's never won his division, he's been beaten by NIU 4 times in a row and he seems to lose too often to the top teams of the year in his division. Something is missing for me with Carey too despite his very good records. Maybe it's his lack of experience combined as coordinator/HC and that he inherited a very good team that makes me want to see if he can maintain for a longer time or if it will erode.
As far as Babers stats on defense (total/scoring/yds per play)
2014 118 108 98
2015 97 76 62 (as of last week)
So their defensive numbers have improved slightly this year but is it enough and can you tell if there's a trend there. Two years probably isn't enough to say and the jumps aren't big enough (except for the yds/play) to say just how much they've improved.
I think pairing him with a DC like Don Brown at BC, a Mike Elko at WF type might be helpful to him. Both with northeast ties and with Elko even NJ ties.
As far as Fleck, never liked him and still don't. Too much flash, not enough substance. Campbell looks good enough but something is just missing for me. I think it's that he's never won his division, he's been beaten by NIU 4 times in a row and he seems to lose too often to the top teams of the year in his division. Something is missing for me with Carey too despite his very good records. Maybe it's his lack of experience combined as coordinator/HC and that he inherited a very good team that makes me want to see if he can maintain for a longer time or if it will erode.
Fleck played college ball and spent some time in the NFL. He was Mac coach of the year last season. He's had the highest rated Mac recruiting classes in multiple years. Team is currently 5-1 in conference.
That's not substance?
Can anyone stop the spread?
Isn't that why Big 12 matchups have 80-100 points a game?
I'd say the proper critique would then be "still unproven" or "limited track record". But the substance per year looks to be at a pretty high level.
The only way to stop the spread is to have at least one guy who commands a double-team every single play. Auburn (Fairly) beat Oregon this way. So did OSU (Bosa).
This effectively negates the "+1" advantage a running QB offers in the run game. Thus, it forces the "running" QB to pass more -- something most of them don't do particularly well.
This effectively negates the "+1" advantage a running QB offers in the run game. Thus, it forces the "running" QB to pass more -- something most of them don't do particularly well.
Ya good point, we are certainly not alone in our inability to stop spread offenses.
Really thought our pass rush would be a major weapon this year. Obviously has not. The stalled development(regression even) of Turay is very dissapointing.
Honest question...what do you think the odds would be that he would have the highest rated recruiting classes in the Big Ten if he came to Rutgers? I'd venture to say that he would have a very hard time doing better than the 3rd or 4th best recruiting class in our division, which means he better know how to coach. While he may be able to raise the talent level a bit, any coach at Rutgers will live and die by the ability to out-coach our competition...not out-recruit them.
Well yeah, the 2 best teams in the country. I know we are unhappy with where we are at, but no one really expects us to be a top 2 team.
No he is not going to out recruit nor out coach Harbaugh or Urban.
But if we are being honest, we have to concede that any coach we hire will not out coach or out recruit those guys. It's not happening.
I agree 100%...there is no way we out recruit those guys on any kind of consistent basis. In theory, we could be the hot school and have everything come together for a year or two, but we will never out recruit Ohio State and Michigan (and likely Penn State) on a regular basis.
If you accept that fact, which we both do, then I would argue that we are better off getting a coach whose biggest strength is coaching and not recruiting.
A guy like Babers has a shot at outscheming people (could you imagine the difference he would make against PSU...no way we lose to them two years in a row if we have his dynamic offense), while Fleck's biggest strength, recruiting, is neutered by the fact that he has to compete against the biggest programs out there...so if Fleck doesn't have a talent advantage here like he could at Western Michigan, what is the point of hiring him?
yeah but you're forgetting the value of him bring Captain Kurt Chirrocca back with him...(he's his OC, right?)
This is interesting. Even if Fleck isn't outrecruiting the urbans and harbaughs, he could at least recruit well enough to keep the talent gap somewhat close, then the improved scheme, in game adjustments, and a little luck, maybe we have a fighting chance. It's not all or nothing.
Let's be honest here...Urban Meyer and Jim Harbaugh are two of the most complete coaches out there. They recruit and develop/maximize talent at an extraordinary high level. I'd put D'Antonio a half step behind them from a coaching standpoint, and James Franklin a half-step behind from a recruiting perspective.
In the MAC, if you can recruit, you can win. The differentiation amongst high school kids between Western Michigan, Central Michigan, Ball State, Miami (OH), Buffalo, etc. isn't that great, so a kid is likely to choose the school based on the coach. You get the best players, you win.
At Rutgers, you are competing against the most storied programs in college football..places kids dream of going to, and places that recruit themselves. So, could Fleck recruit better here than Flood...possibly...if not probably. Could he recruit well enough to beat Penn State now and then on the field...probably, if Franklin is the coach we think he is. But all this presumes that Fleck is a good coach and not just a good recruiter. He may be, but I don't really know.
Now you get to Babers...his team and his offense beat Fleck last night. His offense has put up tons of points in his two coaching stops and he came from a place (Baylor) that had an even bigger mountain to climb than Rutgers (they were the worst team in the Big Twelve, only got leftovers in their state, poor facilities, etc.). Baylor put in place an innovative offense, improved the level of talent, improved the finances and facilties, and now are the big dog in Texas. A pretty stunning turnaround.
Fleck might be a bit better than what we have now, but how will he do when he doesn't have the best talent on the field?
If we want to say Barbers over Fleck, I'm in, your argument is solid. Can we get Barbers? And if we can't would we want Fleck? Might want to wait a couple games because he has 2 big ones(plus bowl) but I think he has shown enough to say he'd be a good hire. My initial foray on this topic was to say Fleck has a pretty good resume, and I don't think that is a stretch.
Not to mention a little bit of a Rutgers tie.
Not sure whether we can get Babers or not. I think it is possible if we really wanted, but he would definitely be in demand. I would think we would be an attractive landing spot for him, though....Big Ten, unique offense to the league, and a talent-rich area.
I'd be OK with Fleck, but think the upside is limited. I just don't see him going head to head with Meyer and Harbaugh and D'Antonio and being a real threat to out coaching them. All of that doesn't mean he couldn't be an upgrade over the status quo and isn't worth considering, but I'm not convinced he can do more than other coaches if he has less talent (and he would have less talent here than half the teams in our division).
Good point. As for stopping the spread attack, schools that play against it a lot have more success if they have the athletes to do it. The defenders not only have to have the quicks, speed to play in space, they have to tackle well. Tackling seems to be a big problem for a lot of football players today.
Surprised no one brings up the name of Jeff Brohm as a potential HC. He was a very good QB at UL, played QB in the NFL. Has extensive QB/OC experience at UL and other places. Has been the HC at Western Kentucky the last 2 years and his offense is scoring a lot and they are winning a lot. I would think that JH would have some connection with her ties to Louisville.
Stopping the "spread" doesn't necessarily have to be about the HC you hire. You provide the funds for an offensive-minded coach to HIRE a good-to-very-good DC who CAN stop both pro and spread style O's. Or, to be honest, whichever one we will tend to face more on a yearly basis. Or you hire a HC who has shown, while coaching D in the past, that his D's can stop spreads.
Not so fast. Babers does not have a clear advantage over Fleck at all. Babers inherited David Clawson's team that went 5-7 to 8-5 to 10-3. Fleck inherited a team that had went 5-7 to 6-6 to 7-6 to 4-8. Which was a tougher and better coaching job? Fleck has recruited NJ and certainly knows RU.
Just for a little context, Matt Johnson last night was 23-41 for 269 yards (6.6 YPA), 3 TDs and an INT. It was his worst game of the season.
His prior starts:
26-35 for 365, 4/0
27-40 for 430, 5/0
25-30 for 357, 5/0
33-39 for 450, 5/1
Nothing under 10 YPA there.
Add in 27-49 for 424 and 2/0 against Tennessee and 36-55 for 491 and 6/1 against Maryland and I'd say they did a pretty nice job against Johnson.
His prior starts:
26-35 for 365, 4/0
27-40 for 430, 5/0
25-30 for 357, 5/0
33-39 for 450, 5/1
Nothing under 10 YPA there.
Add in 27-49 for 424 and 2/0 against Tennessee and 36-55 for 491 and 6/1 against Maryland and I'd say they did a pretty nice job against Johnson.
Playing in college and having an NFL stint whether long or short doesn't speak to coaching acumen. Coach of the year is nice too but I don't put a lot of stock in that either. That just speaks to fleeting success of a year and doesn't tell me anything about consistency. He was 3rd in his division.
I took a look at some of his stats while he's been HC.
total offense/scoring offense - total defense/scoring defense
2013 112 118 - 86 105
2014 41 33 - 46 43
2015 22 22 - 67 76
But then I looked at 2011 and 2012 before he got there
2011 19 18 - 62 75
2012 38 61 - 99 76
So his numbers seem around or slightly better what they were before he took over. Also look at his losses. I don't ding him for his losses to the MSUs/OSUs of the world. He's losing to the better teams in his division and hasn't won a division title let alone conference title. He's never been a coordinator anywhere and I don't know how much he sets the tone for either side of the ball anyway, just a bunch of rah rah. He's beating his conference mates in recruiting but that's only a means to an end, it's beating them on the field that matters and he's not when it comes to the better teams in the conference/division. So he's got a lot to prove and no matter how good a recruiter he is he's not going to out recruit the Michigans/OSUs of the world here. It's going to be with coaching and scheme.
Last edited:
Fleck and company also couldn't stop Willie Fritz Georgia Southern spread option/pistol rushing attack earlier in the year either.
Willie Fritz intrigues me as an candidate, probably the closest thing to the Oregon offense on the market outside of hiring unproven Scott Frost. Fritz was FCS coach of the year 2011 and 2012 also sun belt coach of the year 2014. Georgia Southern plays Georgia on Nov 21.
Willie Fritz intrigues me as an candidate, probably the closest thing to the Oregon offense on the market outside of hiring unproven Scott Frost. Fritz was FCS coach of the year 2011 and 2012 also sun belt coach of the year 2014. Georgia Southern plays Georgia on Nov 21.
Ed Pinkham
Position: Defensive Coordinator/Defensive Backs
2008 Rutgers, Secondary Coach
2009-10 Rutgers, Defensive Coordinator
Matt Simon
Position: Assistant Coach - Wide Receivers
2012 Rutgers University, Player Development
2013 Rutgers University, Wide Receivers Coach
Jessica Larmony
Position: Director of Football Operations
Alma Mater: Rutgers
Larmony worked with WMU head coach P.J. Fleck during his time at Rutgers where she served as a recruiting assistant for the Scarlet Knights football program from 2010-2013. In her role Larmony oversaw the student staff, coordinated all on campus recruiting events, and assisted with various game day operations.
my part was sarcasm..not sure if the rest are an issue...I don't recall the same issues with those units although like birthing pain. One tends to forget over time..(so my wife says :))
Fritz has won everywhere he has gone. More impressive then auto-pilot coaches of Toledeo, Bowling Green, etc. Like Fleck an excellent candidate.
Last edited:
Latest posts
-
Football Analytical look at Rutgers Football's QB1 Athan Kaliakmanis- Latest: Scarlett Fan
-
-
-
