The Substitution Signal
- Thread starter Jumba72
- Start date
They thought Bielema was a Jumbo Jet making an illegal landing on the field and threw a flag.
This sub thing seems to be a new way to goad the opposition into burning a TO, which happened just after this incident. I've seen it in other games as well.
sports.yahoo.com
The D now is being given time to answer the O lineup changes, but the clock isn't stopped. Not sure if this time was a mistake by the refs or timekeeper. Another time the offense tried to sneak in a second substitution before the snap. I hope this "gamesmabship" doesn't become the norm.
South Carolina coach Shane Beamer has to be restrained after Illinois' Bret Bielema taunts USC sideline with substitution gesture
"Beamer could hardly believe it at first. He taunted Shane Beamer, and Beamer had enough and snapped," ESPN sideline reporter Quint Kessenich said.
sports.yahoo.com
The D now is being given time to answer the O lineup changes, but the clock isn't stopped. Not sure if this time was a mistake by the refs or timekeeper. Another time the offense tried to sneak in a second substitution before the snap. I hope this "gamesmabship" doesn't become the norm.
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I don't entirely understand the rule. But it appeared to me that the officials were saying that if the offense (South Carolina) subs one or more players after breaking the huddle, that the defense (Illinois) needed to be given an opportunity to sub as many players as it wanted before South Carolina would be allowed to snap the ball. And it also appeared that Illinois picked up on film that South Carolina had a habit of breaking the huddle, then subbing players (presumably giving the offense a matchup advantage). So Illinois just made it reflexive practice that every single time South Carolina made a substitution (post-huddle), Illinois made a substitution. And Illinois' substitutions were super slow (essentially walking off the field). And in the meantime, the play clock would be running, but the official would be standing over the ball and not allowing it to be snapped until they were convinced the defense had a reasonable opportunity to get its subs on and off the field. So several times, the whistle would blow to essentially start the play and there would only be two or three seconds on the play clock. Sometimes they got the snap off, once or twice they called time out, sometimes they got a delay of game. This made the South Carolina coach go apeshit (and increasingly worse each time it happened). After a couple times, Illinois' coach made it so obvious what they were doing (effectively running out the play clock every single time South Carolina subbed players), that I thought SC's coach was gonna have a stroke. THEN ... Illinois' coach started taunting him about it during an injury time out and it escalated even worse.
I was genuinely surprised they shook hands and seemed cordial after the game. I thought punches were going to be thrown.
I was genuinely surprised they shook hands and seemed cordial after the game. I thought punches were going to be thrown.
Right, it seemed like Beamer initiated the conflict, and then got pissed when he could no longer use it to his advantage. The game is already stunted by all the flags. This could make it unwatchable. I forget which game I was watching where it wound up costing the O a TO. Too messy. I hope they get it sorted out
If the offense subs the defense is allowed to sub within a “reasonable” time. If the offense subs late (post huddle according to you) then the defense is still allowed a “reasonable” amount of time to sub only now its deeper into the play clock.
It’s up to the offense to sub quicker if they don’t want to get delay of games penalties like that. Beamer was trying to get an advantage with post huddle late subs and Bielema essentially neutralized it.
This kind of thing isn’t new as far as delay of games due to late offensive subs and has happened in games for at least a couple years.
The O was using it as an advantage. The rule change was to take that advantage away.
Didn’t the dispute have nothing to do with the substitution signal but a trick play on a kick off?
The rule needs to change.. I think they should limit O subs to first 15 seconds of the 40-second playclock and 10 for the 25 second playclock. That would mean the D can see the sub at 25-second mark or 15 second mark.. then they get 15 or 10 seconds to sub and, no matter what, the O can snap the ball at the 10 or 5 second mark. If teh D subs has not completed it is a penalty against them.. 12 on the field, etc.This sub thing seems to be a new way to goad the opposition into burning a TO, which happened just after this incident. I've seen it in other games as well.
South Carolina coach Shane Beamer has to be restrained after Illinois' Bret Bielema taunts USC sideline with substitution gesture
"Beamer could hardly believe it at first. He taunted Shane Beamer, and Beamer had enough and snapped," ESPN sideline reporter Quint Kessenich said.
The D now is being given time to answer the O lineup changes, but the clock isn't stopped. Not sure if this time was a mistake by the refs or timekeeper. Another time the offense tried to sneak in a second substitution before the snap. I hope this "gamesmabship" doesn't become the norm.
The way it is now D would be stupid to NOT sub after a late sub by the O.
I saw this case live... it looked to me like SC was lined up to snap and a player forgot to take the field.. he ran out late and was getting into position when the D realized the opportunity to sub and began to su.. but it looked disorganized.. like new guys coming in weren't sure who was coming out.. it looked confusing and obviously intended to waste time.
I think Bilema wasn't taunting as much as explaining that SC did not sub properly so it was on them, to lose that timeout.
The rule about subbing as it is now is in there precisely because offenses abused the substitution thing combined with teh no-huddle to switch between run and pass personnel at the last moment while NOT giving the D a chance to sub. If the O does not sub, then they are free to snap at any moment.. so, ultimately, it is on them. We have seen this slow sub thing by D all season long.. for a couple years now..
Beamer's reaction was probably compounded by the idea that he was getting screwed on calls... which was also untrue. I say this because he was interviewed on the field between quarters and he commented about the calls. His D was called a couple times for disconcerting signals... one particular case a guy on the end of the line flicked his hand over the line toward a TE or OT who, indeed, flinched.. Beamer thought it was offensive penalty but his team was called and he was irate... later stating as far as he knew D motion and shifts are legal. but if your guys are trying to create penalties then if they get called for stretching the rules it is on them.. and you, as coach.
SC players were taunting frequently as well. I am glad they lost.
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Would have been hilarious watching baby Beamer’s punch bounce off of Bielema as he laughed at him. That was one of those “hold me back boys” moments. 😉
Again, it
Here's an article on it.
Bielama's taunt had nothing to do with the substitution thing, which came later. It was about a previous kickoff return on which Beamer had coached his player to give a signal (the one you see Bielema imitating on the video everyone's watching) that was intended to confuse the Illinois coverage team into believing there was a fair catch. Bielema thought it was a BS move because the signal was for safety. Beamer did not. Then Beamer went nuts at the taunt and did his goofy hold me back routine. And then Illinois beat him.
Here's an article on it.
Bielema said he took issue with South Carolina's trick-play kick return to start the drive. Gamecocks kick returner Juju McDowell raised his arms in a T, usually a signal that he does not plan to return the kick — though not technically a fair catch. Illinois kick returner Kenari Wilcher makes the T-bar signal on kickoffs that he won't return for touchbacks.
South Carolina took advantage of that as McDowell after taking a few slow steps forward, causing the Illini coverage to ease up, threw a lateral across the field to Nyck Harbor. Illinois kicker Ethan Moczulski was able to run him out of bounds for just a 25-yard gain.
I think Beamer was out of control early.. at teh late sub thing and then again later with the improperly-called "taunt".
This is a great example of how announcers and sideline guys often don't know what the hell they're talking about.
A great example of how far ESPN will go to protect their SEC football product.
Many many years ago., a UConn returner asked a ref if this, or that hand signal would be interpreted as a fair catch signal or not
Basically trying to find a hand move that was almost a fair catch signal, but would not be considered one by the refs
Sure enough, he caught the kickoff and I think he went all the way because the defense pulled up
Yes, there were two issues. The late subs was one, the other was this unwritten convention that when a kick is not going to be recoverable, the returner makes that hands wide signal to signify that the play is for all intents over and everyone slows down to let the whistle blow. A So Carolina returner made that signal then returned the kick when everyone let up. That's why Bielema was making that gesture at the other sideline. At least that was his explanation.
The NCAA will be looking into the abuse by defenses on the late substitutions and implementing changes before the start of next season. Wouldn't surprise me if the defense is put on a clock and after it expires the play will go even if they haven't completed the change.
