The Truth about this team

[RutgHoops]

Pikiell could have gotten another player but he stuck with Ogbole. He told us all last year and summer how good he would be, and now he is backtracking on him, lol. Happens every summer. He could have recruited, and not paid a player that was more serviceable. They will get exposed for sure, unless the team goes rebounding by committee.

Pike tried to get four or five Centers but all were out of the $$$$ range. The choice doesn't appear to have been Cliff or Ogbole, Bradshaw or Ogbole, Onyesso or Ogbole, Supreme Cook or Ogbole, etc. Those guys, according to reports, went for over $500k each. It appears the choice was Ace and Ogbole or Bradshaw, Dylan and Ogbole or Cliff. And if that is the case as it appears then Pike chose correctly.

This (imo) foolish argument I see on the site would be the equivalent of the Pittsburgh Pirates signing Juan Soto and Corbin Burnes and then having fans complaining they didn't sign Pete Alonso also. We signed two of the most coveted recruits in the country. I am going to assume they weren't free. And when you spend for those two at Rutgers it is quite likely you are pretty much done for big ticket items.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I disagree but I would phrase it a bit differently. Cliff was an adequate on ball defender in the post and a plus, plus off ball defensive player. Cliff was as All- B1G defensive player (as both a Junior and Senior) because he changed a remarkable amount of shots at the rim due to his exceptional ability as a help defender and as a defender in the high pick and roll offenses most teams run these days. While I like the potential of both E and Lathan and think they get better as the year goes on I think Ive seen us get burned for layups on a "roll" in the high pick and roll more in the first four games than I saw in the last two years. And for all the times Cliff struggled against an opposing Center the opposite side is (I believe) he played Edey and Dickinson tougher straight up than any other Center in the B1G. Hence our better performance versus Purdue than just about any team in the B1G the past few seasons.

Just my $0.02

$20,000

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Great post highlighting the positive talent and in agreement with ACE and Dylan highlighting that talent.
We had z Coleman and Shields and we had Webb with Herve and Ax and we had Douby and Company.
But the thing missing which hasn’t happened much since 1998 is we are missing a shot blocker. From Hamady to Echnique to Myles and Cliff and others I missed in between we have had shot blockers that covered up defensive lapses. My only regret is we do not have one unless ACE plays some 5 which will hardly happen. Somerville watched the little point guard the other night go up for 2 layups and did not even try to block the shot.
But defense all of it , individually , as well as defensive rotations , pick and roll , is a work in progress.
However , your point is well stated. We have the most offensive weapons ever , with ACE and Dylan , 2 of the best in the country not just the conference , headlining. We have 3 point assassins in PJ and Zack and we have a young center with offensive ability and a handle in Lathan . I expect our offense will carry us over the top and those fans crying for our previous lockdown defense are going to be disappointed because it is not coming. But improvement on defense might be enough if we rebound the ball to go along with the offense. Hoping that theory plays out in Vegas as having the 2 best players on the floor every night gives you a good chance to win every night , and doing the little things would solidify the win.

I am hungry and there is a slice of pizza next to me.....eventually i am eating it.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Pike tried to get four or five Centers but all were out of the $$$$ range. The choice doesn't appear to have been Cliff or Ogbole, Bradshaw or Ogbole, Onyesso or Ogbole, Supreme Cook or Ogbole, etc. Those guys, according to reports, went for over $500k each. It appears the choice was Ace and Ogbole or Bradshaw, Dylan and Ogbole or Cliff. And if that is the case as it appears then Pike chose correctly.

This (imo) foolish argument I see on the site would be the equivalent of the Pittsburgh Pirates signing Juan Soto and Corbin Burnes and then having fans complaining they didn't sign Pete Alonso also. We signed two of the most coveted recruits in the country. I am going to assume they weren't free. And when you spend there at Rutgers it is quite likely you are pretty much done for big ticket items.

I am a Pirate fan who HATES, DETESTS Juan Soto. I want to punch him in the face everytime I see him at bat. If i was a manager I would start an opener and drill him every game in the 1st inning. I will not take him on my fantasy team either. So i might complain we didn't get the Polar Bear

 

[goru7]

I am hungry and there is a slice of pizza next to me.....eventually i am eating it.

We are going to disappoint you defensively this year. Can we improve pick and roll defense ? Can we rotate better ? Can we use our length to get in the passing lanes more ? Can we stay in front of our man ? Can we fight over screens ? Can we team rebound especially the guards ?
Unfortunately , none of the above will be perfect but I expect some improvement from what we have seen thru 4 games.
But I also know there is no one on the other team that is going to stop Dylan and Ace. If they try very hard and double them , I am confident they are both good and unselfish passers and PJ and Zack and hopefully a healthier Acuff will knock down the 3. Our offense has to remain in the 75+ range because our defense is at least 5-10 points worse than prior years.

 

[RutgHoops]

I am a Pirate fan who HATES, DETESTS Juan Soto. I want to punch him in the face everytime I see him at bat. If i was a manager I would start an opener and drill him every game in the 1st inning. I will not take him on my fantasy team either. So i might complain we didn't get the Polar Bear

Nationals fan. Very much helped win us a World Series title. This is blasphemy.

 

[Unionst]

Two questions
1. I missed the 1st half of the Kennesaw State game. What is the score?
2. Basketball is both offense and defense. I think it is VERY early to call this the most talented team we have had. We have had some pretty good teams the past 5-6 years. Players like Myles Johnson may not be viewed as talented, but right now I would trade any player on this team for him right now.

You would trade Myles for Dylan or Ace? If you mean that I don’t see why or how you can be a hoops fan. Is 2-0 your ideal score? What do you have against guys who can put the ball in the hoop?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Nationals fan. Very much helped win us a World Series title. This is blasphemy.

View embedded media

Gerrit the trader had 7 chances to drill him and he failed.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You would trade Myles for Dylan or Ace? If you mean that I don’t see why or how you can be a hoops fan. Is 2-0 your ideal score? What do you have against guys who can put the ball in the hoop?

Right now YES. If we had only one of those 2, NO.

The winner of a basketball game is the team that gives up the fewest points.

Given this team.....I don't think the hit on offense missing one of those 2 is greater than the impact Myles had on the defensive end.

Lose Harper and I go to war with JWill as my PG and I have a heavy diet of Ace
Lose Ace and I go to war with Hayes and Martini taking minutes and I have a heavy diet of Harper

 

[Nycrusupporter]

These analytics look VERY good for Myles Johnson over the years

Myles was great, three things I would note:
-Pike clearly favored Cliff, possibly due to commitments made during recruiting, and I didn’t think Cliff deserved to be playing ahead of Myles.
-Pike stopped playing Myles in the high post, where he flashed some impressive passing skills for a big man, never understood that decision.
-Myles never learned to set his feet when he set a pick on the perimeter, he was good for a couple moving pick fouls a game.

 

[Unionst]

Right now YES. If we had only one of those 2, NO.

The winner of a basketball game is the team that gives up the fewest points.

Given this team.....I don't think the hit on offense missing one of those 2 is greater than the impact Myles had on the defensive end.

Lose Harper and I go to war with JWill as my PG and I have a heavy diet of Ace
Lose Ace and I go to war with Hayes and Martini taking minutes and I have a heavy diet of Harper

I loved Myles - except his foul shooting - but I believe we’re much better with both than trading one for a Myles like guy. We won the last game because they both turned it on at the end. Pure talent won that game and will win others for us. And the joy of watching jaw dropping plays by Ace and Dylan is a once in a lifetime thing. Poetry over prose. And we are 4 - 0.

Oh, and the winner of the game is the one that scores the most points.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

1. The trade is for MYLES and not a Myles like guy!
2. Dont want to hear about what wins a game against Merrimack!!!!!!!
3. Poetry has no place in my life
4. Blocked shots and routine defensive rebounds drop my jaw
5. Defense is for winners

 

[RUfan1977]

This is the most individual talent RU has probably ever assembled. But this year's squad has yet to become a team, especially on defense, where they have not remotely mastered the concept of help defense. RU's success hinges on whether Pike can get these very talented individuals to become a team whose sum is even greater than its parts. That is no easy task, with so much talent and not enough basketballs to go around. But, if Pike can pull that off, this team could be special. Time will tell. We we learn a lot in Vegas.

I think Phil Sellers, Mike Dabney, Eddie Jordan, James Bailey, Hollis Copeland and Abdul Andersen might disagree with this team having the most individual talent. However, there’s no doubt that this team has real talent. Other than Ace and Dylan nothing suggests to me that any of the other players will see a minute of action in the NBA whereas that team had at least 5 that made it.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Yes Myles Johnson is my all time favorite player…sorry Geo if you are reading this.

 

[rubjk]

I tend to not be too negative but I agree the board seems overly down on this team.
Best I can tell is that expectations are higher this year and with that comes more attention, fans and scrutiny. Add to that the historical trolls who come here to generally post the same negative shit over and over again targeting certain players.

Good thing is the board is wrong as much if not more than right. 4 weeks ago the football team was going to never win again this season and Schiano should be fired.

 

[ImBadRU]

It is way too early to say this is the best squad ever. You cannot make that determination after playing four bad teams. As in the past few years, there are some serious concerns that others have mentioned. Rebounding, particularly on the offensive end. There are some slow moving defenders on the team that have me worried - Harper, Hayes, Acuff, Derkakto an extent. Teams like Miss State will crush us this year with their strength, length, and physicality. Seeing Lathan up against some B10 centers will be interesting. I have little faith in EO at center. Still quite raw. Some hidden keys = Acuff can he regain shape and his offensive production would be huge if he can. Can Derkak score a bit more? Can the team get the FT % up higher. I hope they have been playing down to competition, but I'm not sure.

 

[Unionst]

1. The trade is for MYLES and not a Myles like guy!
2. Dont want to hear about what wins a game against Merrimack!!!!!!!
3. Poetry has no place in my life
4. Blocked shots and routine defensive rebounds drop my jaw
5. Defense is for winners

5. Only those who can score.

I will say you are consistent. I even occasionally agree with you. But this year is going to be fun. No rock fights that you, and pretty much no one else, enjoys so much.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

2:15 left at RAC against B1G team you know what happens and who is on the court

Forget plays or sets. It is Dylan at top of the key waiting for shot clock to hit 10…..then it is off to get a stop.

You have seen the movie before

 

[RUJMM78]

Two questions
1. I missed the 1st half of the Kennesaw State game. What is the score?
2. Basketball is both offense and defense. I think it is VERY early to call this the most talented team we have had. We have had some pretty good teams the past 5-6 years. Players like Myles Johnson may not be viewed as talented, but right now I would trade any player on this team for him right now.

Myles Johnson better than Harper or Bailey.I say no way and so does the NBA scouts.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Myles Johnson better than Harper or Bailey.I say no way and so does the NBA scouts.

We are talking about beating Indiana in Bloomington on 1/2/2025, not the Sacramento Kings.

Are these the same scouts that thought Luka Garza wasn't even worth watching yet B1G coaches voted him player of the year.

 

[lion1983]

Greene Rice Fig:

I love debating you on the Board. I sometimes even agree with you.

BUT .... With all due respect ... You are absolutely batsh*t crazy on this one.

There are ZERO scenarios, ZERO circumstances, in NOT ONE SINGLE UNIVERSE, where "trading" Myles Johnson - even if he is your all-time favorite RU player - for EITHER Bailey or Harper is either the right move, good for a team, makes ANY sense ... NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM.

Cannot believe I am even debating an RU fan over his preference for MYLES JOHNSON over either of 2 expected TOP NBA DRAFT PICKS!!!! This a player whose BEST season was 8.5 ppg (both Bailey AND Harper may each DOUBLE that scoring average) and 8.5 rpg (Bailey may come close to matching those rebounding totals), a 42% career FT shooter, who had more turnovers than assists. Johnson was a fine post defensive player - but was not even good enough to average 20 mpg for a top 15 UCLA team as a 5th year player, and only averaged 3.5 ppg and 5.5 rpg in those limited minutes - and did not even start half of UCLA's games.

And you'd trade either of RU's current top 5 NBA draft picks for a part-time center who cannot score at all?

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

You owe me at least to look at this......
Take a look at the 3 years Myles was a big part of the program. Take a look at his impact when he was on the floor and what happened when the backup center came in. This team has the type of back up center Myles had his 1st 2 years (Doorson and Carter). The drop off was SIGNIFICANT, MASSIVE. No way Harper or Bailey is going to have that type of impact provided both stay healthy. Not possible.

EvanMiya CBB Analytics

Advanced college basketball analytics used widely by coaches, journalists, and fans.

evanmiya.com

Also Myles shot a very high percent from the floor, didn't need/want to score and was a very good passer. He didn't beg for the ball down low and make faces when he didn't get the ball. He was a superb rebounder on both ends of the floor. In his 3 years we NEVER EVER EVER had any Pike concerns about rebounding.

 

[lion1983]

You owe me at least to look at this......
Take a look at the 3 years Myles was a big part of the program. Take a look at his impact when he was on the floor and what happened when the backup center came in. This team has the type of back up center Myles had his 1st 2 years (Doorson and Carter). The drop off was SIGNIFICANT, MASSIVE. No way Harper or Bailey is going to have that type of impact provided both stay healthy. Not possible.

EvanMiya CBB Analytics

Advanced college basketball analytics used widely by coaches, journalists, and fans.

evanmiya.com

Also Myles shot a very high percent from the floor, didn't need/want to score and was a very good passer. He didn't beg for the ball down low and make faces when he didn't get the ball. He was a superb rebounder on both ends of the floor. In his 3 years we NEVER EVER EVER had any Pike concerns about rebounding.

I have no way to assess how valid Evan Miya's statistical analysis is.

But ... Of course a potential 1st or 2nd team All Big Ten player can have as big, or even BIGGER impact than a center who while an excellent defender, still only averaged 8+ ppg and 8+ rpg in his last season with RU and much less in prior seasons.

In fact, not only is it possible, I would say it is likely. Last season the 13th player in the Evan Miya's player ranking had a BPR of over 7, or 20% better than Evan Miya's best calculation for Myles Johnson. An "impact" of 10% greater than Evan Miya's calculation for Johnson, would have ranked as the 25th best Evan Miya score.

So ... you would be saying that it is "not possible" and "no way" that either Harper or Bailey would rank as one of the top 25 players in the country (which would represent in the worst case a 10% GREATER impact than Johnson)? I would say that in actuality, your "no way" and "not possible" have a different meaning than you actually mean ... like maybe the opposite meaning.

Your comments remind me of the Princess Bride, the chase scene when the "Dread Pirate Roberts" was chasing down the kidnapper Vizzini's boat, and Wallace Shawn kept saying it was "inconceivable" the boat was catching up, that the "pirate" was able to quickly climb up the rope ... and Mandy Patinkin's character Montoya says, "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."

In fact, this season, after just 4 games - with Harper and Bailey just beginning their seasons, with great potential to improve, BOTH Bailey and Harper already have approximately the SAME BPR score as Johnson had at Evan Miya's best calculation for Johnson.

I would be surprised if BOTH Harper and Bailey did not exceed Johnson, even by Evan Miya's esoteric calculation by a decent to wide margin.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

The calculation of offensive and defensive efficiency is not a evan miya calculation (except adjusting for competition). It expresses how many points are scored per possession when he is on the floor and how many points are allowed defensively when he is on the floor.

His impact was huge and would be as big on this specific team. I remember I think an Illinois game when Kofi had like 16 points and 14 of them where the 10 minutes Myles wasnt in the game.

 

[High Quality H2O]

Myles still has a his COVID year of eligibility left. When we couldn’t find a center I was only half joking when I said we should have gone to him with a nice bag to take a 1/2 year sabbatical from coding to grab rebounds for us.

still can enroll for spring semester, let’s go lol.

 

[RC1978]

All I know is that all of the teams were beat that played us tough are getting their butts handed to them by way less talented players. We might not be as good as we all want to think.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I would be very curious what your expected point per possession (adjusted) for the season
With both
With Ace only
With harper only

 

[FinalFourOrBust]

Myles Johnson barely got playing time at UCLA. What a silly argument.

 

[socaldave]

Myles Johnson barely got playing time at UCLA. What a silly argument.

He is definitely smoking something that is making him hungry for that pizza

 

[lion1983]

The calculation of offensive and defensive efficiency is not a evan miya calculation (except adjusting for competition). It expresses how many points are scored per possession when he is on the floor and how many points are allowed defensively when he is on the floor.

His impact was huge and would be as big on this specific team. I remember I think an Illinois game when Kofi had like 16 points and 14 of them where the 10 minutes Myles wasnt in the game.

Even so ... you just ignored all my other arguments/analysis. Especially contesting your statement there was "no way" and it was "not possible" that one of Harper or Bailey, projected top 5 NBA picks would not have as great an impact (based solely on the BPR calculation, not in actual and real game situations), or even substantially greater impact, than Johnson over the course of a full season. In particular, arguing on YOUR level, with your own arguments (i.e. assuming BPR is actually the way to measure "impact"):

1) This season so far, Harper and Bailey, each still with substantial opportunity to improve as players during the course of the season, ALREADY have the same BPR as did Johnson at his peak (so the same impact, at worst).

2) The possibility - or even likelihood - that Harper and/or Bailey might EACH achieve a top 25 player BPR - which would be 10% better than Johnson's peak BPR ... or a Top 13 BPR, which would likely be a 20% greater "impact."

Okay, so FinalFourorBust is more succinct ... but even based on your own standards of analysis, this is a silly argument - meaning your argument has no merit.

 

[High Quality H2O]

Myles Johnson barely got playing time at UCLA. What a silly argument.

so he was good enough to anchor our defense to two consecutive tournament caliber teams, but we should remember him for the year he was less valuable outside of Pikes scheme than how valuable he was while in it. I think we are starting to show other players who aren’t quite as valuable to other programs as to our own.

 

[lion1983]

so he was good enough to anchor our defense to two consecutive tournament caliber teams, but we should remember him for the year he was less valuable outside of Pikes scheme than how valuable he was while in it. I think we are starting to show other players who aren’t quite as valuable to other programs as to our own.

The issue is not whether we should remember Johnson, nor even whether we should be appreciative for his performance.

This issue is that a poster has declared not only that Johnson would be more valuable than either of Harper and Bailey (potential 1st or 2nd team All Big Ten and potential Top 25 or even Top 15 national players, and consensus top 5 NBA draft picks) but that there was "no way" and that it was "not possible" that either of Bailey or Harper could actually have as much (not even the same or more, but just as much) an impact as Johnson would have.

 

[High Quality H2O]

The issue is not whether we should remember Johnson, nor even whether we should be appreciative for his performance.

This issue is that a poster has declared not only that Johnson would be more valuable than either of Harper and Bailey (potential 1st or 2nd team All Big Ten and potential Top 25 or even Top 15 national players, and consensus top 5 NBA draft picks) but that there was "no way" and that it was "not possible" that either of Bailey or Harper could actually have as much (not even the same or more, but just as much) an impact as Johnson would have.

Yea sorry I was in a different argument.
My point was could there be a world where we had all 3 of them.

 

[RUfan1977]

Two questions
1. I missed the 1st half of the Kennesaw State game. What is the score?
2. Basketball is both offense and defense. I think it is VERY early to call this the most talented team we have had. We have had some pretty good teams the past 5-6 years. Players like Myles Johnson may not be viewed as talented, but right now I would trade any player on this team for him right now.

Myles Johnson was a good player, but not on the same league as Ace or Dylan. I do understand the importance of a dominant center. If I could trade any former Rutgers player for a player on this team, I would be willing to trade either Ace or Dylan for James Bailey or Roy Hinson. Both of them were offensively and defensively elite players.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I am not looking BPR that i believe is individual stat based. I am looking at the pure stat of measuring team performance. How much do you score per possession and how much do you give up.

What NBA scouts say is useless!

Harper’s NBA stock could be falling as his value to us is rising. Could be happening in real time.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

We have 2 elite offensive players. I said on this team i would trade either one straight up for Myles. I also said if i had only 1 of Harper or Ace i wouldn't make the trade.

Having Myles would/could solve almost all of our defensive problems. Losing Ace or Dylan would be a modest hit to our offense. Both of them can score outside the confines of a structured offense. I dont think there is a ton of added value to each other with their presence on the court.

 

[RU-ROCS]

I think Phil Sellers, Mike Dabney, Eddie Jordan, James Bailey, Hollis Copeland and Abdul Andersen might disagree with this team having the most individual talent. However, there’s no doubt that this team has real talent. Other than Ace and Dylan nothing suggests to me that any of the other players will see a minute of action in the NBA whereas that team had at least 5 that made it.

Fair point. Should have said in the past 40 years. 🤨

 

[Scarlet Shack]

We are having this argument waaaaaaaaay too early in the season . Certainly not enough data .

I think there is a few things that is obvious

1.) we are playing faster (more possesion) and scoring more …and with more possesion, going give up mkre

2.) it is very limited data …4 games , and I’m gonna go back to look at this after vegas wirb more data and better opponents mixed in but

-the offense feels choppy and yet in four games , we are newly shooting 50% from the floor and 36% from three . This is a very good start

-the defense , to the eye ball, needs a lot of work , mostly on team defensive concepts (rotations , switches anticipating screens et ), but yet still has manage to keep opponents under 40% from the floor in its first four game

The statitcal question on the season is really simples…and got to let it play out

1.) Will the offense improve as the competion moves up to the point we can still score in the high 70s, and shoot in the 37-38% range from three

2.) Will the defense pick it up as the competiton moves up and keep teams shooting at 40%

If the answer is no to both …we got problems

If the answer is yes to one and no to the other …or middling on both…we probably are on the bubble

If the answer is yes to both, we are probably going to like our chances in March on a game by game basis to win one at a time in a one or done scanairo ….

Let it play out and let the convo continue …because this one is going all the way until March 16th…..

 

[Scangg]

Loved and appreciated myles more than most... Ace and Dylan are on a different planet. Ask myles and he would agree

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

Loved and appreciated myles more than most... Ace and Dylan are on a different planet. Ask myles and he would agree

Stop comparing the player. On this roster who helps us more.

Ask in a different way…..
Add Myles what does that do to opp FG%?
Lose Ace what does that do to your fg%?