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Ferren Mall site (w/ renderings)

Originally posted by Upstream:

Originally posted by Jonny S:
Morristown is nice, but it's too remote to really go much higher. Same for any shore town like Red Bank.
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Too remote from what? If you work in Morris County or northern Somerset County, Morristown certainly is not remote.
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This is just reflective of people that work in NYC and think that everything in NJ is based on commuting to NYC. Obviously NYC is a huge influence but the reality is the vast majority of NJ residents don't work or commute to NYC. If the trends toward more urban style living are true the reality is that it will mean even more growth for places like Morristown. Morristown offers urban style living at a different scale and makes more sense for people that don't need to be 10 minutes to NYC
 
Originally posted by Scarlet Pride:

Originally posted by Upstream:

Originally posted by Jonny S:
Morristown is nice, but it's too remote to really go much higher. Same for any shore town like Red Bank.
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Too remote from what? If you work in Morris County or northern Somerset County, Morristown certainly is not remote.
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This is just reflective of people that work in NYC and think that everything in NJ is based on commuting to NYC. Obviously NYC is a huge influence but the reality is the vast majority of NJ residents don't work or commute to NYC. If the trends toward more urban style living are true the reality is that it will mean even more growth for places like Morristown. Morristown offers urban style living at a different scale and makes more sense for people that don't need to be 10 minutes to NYC
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Just to confirm that point, here are the top 25 counties in which NJ residents work, ranked by the number of NJ residents who work there:




Bergen Co. NJ 382,571
Middlesex Co. NJ 351,421
Essex Co. NJ 332,841
Morris Co. NJ 261,094
New York Co. NY 252,364
Monmouth Co. NJ 237,728
Union Co. NJ 219,450
Hudson Co. NJ 205,313
Camden Co. NJ 180,579
Mercer Co. NJ 172,925
Burlington Co. NJ 167,957
Passaic Co. NJ 165,444
Somerset Co. NJ 152,350
Ocean Co. NJ 138,845
Atlantic Co. NJ 124,705
Gloucester Co. NJ 84,002
Philadelphia Co. PA 71,594
Cumberland Co. NJ 56,899
Hunterdon Co. NJ 42,138
Cape May Co. NJ 37,261
Sussex Co. NJ 36,020
Warren Co. NJ 27,017
Kings Co. NY 22,312
Salem Co. NJ 20,225
Bucks Co. PA 14,097


(Source: U.S. Census Bureau)
 
Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Howell being part of the Freehold Regional HS district is good. Howell being much cheaper than its neighbors to the north but you are still given the opportunity to attend the magnet programs at any of the area schools.
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AND the Monmouth County Vocational ones as well.

But as a Summer place? That is a head scratcher. LOL
 
I'm really excited about the rising of NB. To Cofifa or anyone else, what is the ultimate vision for New Brunswick? As someone who loves cities I'm wondering if you hope to build taller and taller or if you don't want to go too high. Is there a current city that you would say is a model for NB? Thanks.
 
Everyone else? It's fine, but anything that's not near the Turnpike/GSP/Northeast Corridor is too remote for most people.
 
Originally posted by e5fdny:
Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Howell being part of the Freehold Regional HS district is good. Howell being much cheaper than its neighbors to the north but you are still given the opportunity to attend the magnet programs at any of the area schools.
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AND the Monmouth County Vocational ones as well.

But as a Summer place? That is a head scratcher. LOL
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You'd be surprised. I have relatives in Freehold and people who live in Manhattan own the house next door only for the weekends.

Mostly, I want a place near the shore with a pool for a reasonable price. So that was my thought process. I was thinking Ramtown because it is like 15 minutes to the beach. Plus, I want to be the furthest north you can go and have decent resale value.
 
Morristown has added more bars and restaurants, the green is nice, it has decent shopping, train is right there, downtown is walkable...

I think most people who live there though work in Morris or Somerset and there are a ton of big companies and Wall St outlets and law firms in the area.

The nicest part of Morristown is that it doesn't have a very bad area like most of the other NJ cities. Price wise it's catching up to Hoboken/JC on the green.
 
Morristown has come a long way since they first put up headquarters plaza. The issue w Morristown is simply nothing more than getting there. 287/78/24 are just terrible and congested by a leaf falling. The 78west exit off the gsp coming north has helped, but it's still a nuisance.

Not sure how this convo has drafted off into talks of freehold (seriously?) but NB is simply in a rough position until they can turn around their housing stock. Gentrification simply is not occurring in any of the houses that are walkable to downtown. I don't count student rental homes... The blocks off of Livingston, New & George need to see investment for the city to really roar back.

The crime is too rampant, owner occupancy too low, and the condition of the housing stock is abysmal. Condo/townhouse life isn't appealing to a lot of the u40 crowd. NB offers nothing to appeal to those people and keep them in the city
 
I think buildings like Riverwatch and the Highlands are developing appealing to millenials who can afford it.

The issue is that in NB you pretty much have just that- versus Hoboken/JC where you have more going on and the city.

Morristown exists nicely far off from the city so I don't see why NB can't do the same. The difference is the "bad" area of Morristown has nothing on the "bad" areas of New Brunswick. Morristown has Century 21 and other shopping. Bar-wise it's probably similar. Restaurants are similar- NB may even have the edge on that one. I think NB also has more newer apartment and condo buildings downtown that are not an outrageous rip off. What it doesn't have- and Morristown does- is moderate housing stock (like garden apartments or regular non-luxury buildings) in walking proximity. And NB also has much better train access in the sense that it has a 50 minute express ride to Penn Station and it's not totally unrealistic to commute to Philly from there.

So I think the problems are pretty fixable, kind of the stuff we rail on all the time. More moderate housing, more retail, more safety/clean up of bad areas.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:


Originally posted by e5fdny:

Originally posted by rufancoe00:
Howell being part of the Freehold Regional HS district is good. Howell being much cheaper than its neighbors to the north but you are still given the opportunity to attend the magnet programs at any of the area schools.
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AND the Monmouth County Vocational ones as well.

But as a Summer place? That is a head scratcher. LOL
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You'd be surprised. I have relatives in Freehold and people who live in Manhattan own the house next door only for the weekends.

Mostly, I want a place near the shore with a pool for a reasonable price. So that was my thought process. I was thinking Ramtown because it is like 15 minutes to the beach. Plus, I want to be the furthest north you can go and have decent resale value.
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Color me surprised then. LOL

Your definition of "near" is very different than mine.
 
Originally posted by bob-loblaw:
Morristown has come a long way since they first put up headquarters plaza. The issue w Morristown is simply nothing more than getting there. 287/78/24 are just terrible and congested by a leaf falling. The 78west exit off the gsp coming north has helped, but it's still a nuisance.

Not sure how this convo has drafted off into talks of freehold (seriously?) but NB is simply in a rough position until they can turn around their housing stock. Gentrification simply is not occurring in any of the houses that are walkable to downtown. I don't count student rental homes... The blocks off of Livingston, New & George need to see investment for the city to really roar back.

The crime is too rampant, owner occupancy too low, and the condition of the housing stock is abysmal. Condo/townhouse life isn't appealing to a lot of the u40 crowd. NB offers nothing to appeal to those people and keep them in the city
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Yes. Important point about the housing stock in NB. Can't rely on new amenity-laden buildings alone. Need to attract people who actually want to fix/renovate stuff that is already there.
 
Lawmatt, you follow land use issues -- can you think of any situation comparable to New Brunswick in which gentrification happened near a college campus? I'm sure there are examples, but I just can't think of any offhand.
 
NYU and Columbia are two. The overall image change of NYC was a big contributor for both though. And both have more locally-organized political action than we do. The locals are still fighting NYU expansion.

Both also involved acquiring new property (which is the subject of much debate on this board).

The big thing is though, RU is not one of the most sought after cities on Earth.
 
Yes, NYU and Columbia have resurgent neighborhoods around them, but it's more how the city has changed than anything those schools did. I see a college campus as a poor center for a rehabbing neighborhood, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:
Yes, NYU and Columbia have resurgent neighborhoods around them, but it's more how the city has changed than anything those schools did. I see a college campus as a poor center for a rehabbing neighborhood, but I'd like to be proven wrong.
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The jobs, culture, etc. that flow from the presence of a university should be leveraged to enhance the host city/town.

The problem, for RU, is that people associated with the university tend to spread out to other areas, given that everything is pretty close together in NJ and many don't see NB has a clearly preferable option. As you know, some faculty even live in NYC. And families with a choice are not being drawn to NB, of course.

More people need to take a chance on NB to bring revitalization to the neighborhoods themselves.
 
These are some good points.

But I think lots of other college towns are in suburbs/metro areas or the cities themselves. What hurts RU and NB is that part of NB is just flat out BAD. And in the Northeast up until 15-20 years ago, cities = BAD and the older generation still clings to that mentality. Plenty of people in the burbs would still be afraid of Washington Sq Park. Madison and Columbus are big cities- I'm sure they have their not so great parts- but I don't know how close those are to campus. USCw is in a not so great part of town. But its reputation, football, and overall access to LA seem to overcome that. Part of it is how RU markets itself too- which is getting better.

It will take more commitment- like you've seen in other NJ cities. It's certainly possible- even probable- when you look at places much worse situated from a lot of aspects that are now hip. But there will still be aspects of city life that will be off putting to some prospective students, as they would be anywhere in America.
 
The area near USC is still a shithole. I worked in west la for a year and was on campus a lot. The neighboring housing stock is much worse than NB. Football or reputation hasn't overcame anything. Not sure where you got this intel from....

NB is in a real tough spot. There's too much going on in the surrounding areas to make it a destination. Most "college towns" that we aspire to be similar to have miles of isolated interstate driving leading up to that town or city. With the exception of gong west into Franklin, almost everything in the surrounding area is developed. Things like North Bruns building a manufactured main st are only going to hurt. NB really has to think outside the box to get young folk to want to invest in the city.

The housing stock issue I mentioned before is one major issue. It kept me from buying in new Bruns. Put simply, I didn't want to spent 200-500 a month in hoa fees... And I wanted a house, and to feel safe. In the end it was either red bank or asbury and RB won out due to safety concerns and quality of life in AP issues.

What's happening in Asbury is what should be happening in NB, but it's not due to a foundation of amazing homes that don't exist. There are some good houses in new bruns. They're just surrounded by slop on most sides
 
NB has quite an edge on restaurants on Morristown I think. Second best in the state actually after Montclair in my book.
 
Originally posted by Jonny S:
Surprised you wouldn't name Penn?
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Excellent point. Penn did bring about development on the strip of blocks bordering the campus on the north. But Penn also benefitted from the heavy demand for housing in Philadelphia's Center City.

Notice all of the examples so far have been of private universities with a ton of money.
 
Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Notice all of the examples so far have been of private universities with a ton of money.
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That is partly because most major public universities are located in small towns away from major urban areas. Rutgers is in a small city in the shadow of New York City. So the type of neglect and decay that a place like New Brunswick has seen is very different than what Champaign Illinois would see.

The public comparators would be a short list of schools like Maryland, Ga Tech, Pitt, Ohio St, Michigan, Minnesota, Arizona St, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Washington.
 
College Park is similar, although not the same (Metro is not right downtown, downtown is really college oriented, not professional/government).

GT, Pitt, OSU, Minnesota, UCLA, Washington and UCLA are all really in major cities. Whether the neighborhood improves will depend almost entirely on whether the city improves, although I guess that goes for NB too.

But on its face a, particularly a large public college is in fact a poor starter for upscaling in an area where the profs have choices. You have a bunch of transient poor people who are also known for being bad neighbors in general.
 
I meant that USCw really ascended academically despite its location (which I agree at least aesthetically is probably worse than New Brunswick and the 405 runs practically through it).

Red Bank and Morristown also have pretty good high schools, shared with surrounding, affluent suburban towns- that changes the dynamic.

Asbury had the gay community play a huge hand. It certainly helped that the other area gay resort was not particularly convenient.

It will be interesting to see the impact of the new North Brunswick train station.

New Brunswick still has a lot to offer. IMO the big difference will be a reduction in crime and more gentrification to attract more people into town.
 
Originally posted by Upstream:

Originally posted by camdenlawprof:

Notice all of the examples so far have been of private universities with a ton of money.
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That is partly because most major public universities are located in small towns away from major urban areas. Rutgers is in a small city in the shadow of New York City. So the type of neglect and decay that a place like New Brunswick has seen is very different than what Champaign Illinois would see.

The public comparators would be a short list of schools like Maryland, Ga Tech, Pitt, Ohio St, Michigan, Minnesota, Arizona St, UCLA, UC Berkeley, Washington.
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Taking a stab at categorizing public universities by what I think might be best identified as geographic context. After going through this quick exercise, kind of makes me wonder if there's too many groupings. Perhaps Groups A & B are similar enough to be more generally grouped together as well as Groups D & E. Additionally, if the size of the urban center is not necessarily important to differentiate in how the area surrounding the university campus is developed, then Group C could be blended into Group D and/or E.

Group A - small cities within large metros/MSAs
NB (NYC) - Rutgers
Ann Arbor (Detroit) - UMichigan
Berkeley (SF) - Cal
maybe....Chapel Hill (Raleigh) - UNC

Group B - small cities more immediately adjacent to large cities
College Park (DC) - UMaryland
Tempe (Phoenix) - ASU
La Jolla (SD) - USCD

Group C - med/large cities with self-contained metro
Austin - UTexas
Columbus - OSU
Madison - UWisc
Raleigh - NCSU

Group D - large cities; university campus with more urban character
Minneapolis - UMinn
Atlanta - GT
Pittsburgh - UPitt

Group E - large cities; university campus located within more suburban environs
Seattle (UWash) *
Los Angeles (UCLA)

* not sufficiently familiar with the neighborhood in Seattle where UWash is located to confirm if this is correct grouping or perhaps more similar to Group D
 
Fantastic categorization, but I think Berkeley is pretty close to San Fran (camden can help here)...my understand is it's right across the bay...like maybe Secaucus to NYC type distance.

Ann Arbor is interesting in that the Detroit metro has been in population decline for some time. But I think Michigan really has such a historic lure, we can't match it. And I think schools there are good, so professors stay in town, versus at RU, where they often live in Highland Park.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Fantastic categorization, but I think Berkeley is pretty close to San Fran (camden can help here)...my understand is it's right across the bay...like maybe Secaucus to NYC type distance.

Ann Arbor is interesting in that the Detroit metro has been in population decline for some time. But I think Michigan really has such a historic lure, we can't match it. And I think schools there are good, so professors stay in town, versus at RU, where they often live in Highland Park.
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Detroit metro population only started losing people after 2000. Detroit itself like most northern cities (including NYC, DC, Philly, Baltimore, Chicago) lost alot of population, even as the metro area around it grew. The main difference is that the East Coast cities have started to turn it around to some extent, while the Great Lakes cities have not.
 
Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Fantastic categorization, but I think Berkeley is pretty close to San Fran (camden can help here)...my understand is it's right across the bay...like maybe Secaucus to NYC type distance.
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If only there were some sort of way for you to check that yourself

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=distance+from+san+francisco+to+berkeley
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Very funny but that's hardly the whole story. It take 40 minutes to get into the city during the day from where I live and it's like 2 miles away.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:

Originally posted by Upstream:
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Fantastic categorization, but I think Berkeley is pretty close to San Fran (camden can help here)...my understand is it's right across the bay...like maybe Secaucus to NYC type distance.
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If only there were some sort of way for you to check that yourself

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=distance+from+san+francisco+to+berkeley
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Very funny but that's hardly the whole story. It take 40 minutes to get into the city during the day from where I live and it's like 2 miles away.
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If only there were a way to not only find out that the distance was 13.6 miles, but also a way to find out the travel time. It would be so helpful if there were something like:


23 min
In current traffic: 29 min
 
no issue with the renderings but my biggest issue is a New Brunswick wide issue and that is Parking. You are putting up retail space and office but those who fill the space will be driving in and need to park.

When going out to eat or even when looking at potential places to work, one of the tings I consider is parking. If I need to pay for parking I de-prioritize that location.

If I am going out for drinks and dinner with friends and we are choosing a New Brunswick place vs. a more suburban location we usually choose the suburban location for more and free parking.
 
Originally posted by RUfinal4:
no issue with the renderings but my biggest issue is a New Brunswick wide issue and that is Parking. You are putting up retail space and office but those who fill the space will be driving in and need to park.

When going out to eat or even when looking at potential places to work, one of the tings I consider is parking. If I need to pay for parking I de-prioritize that location.

If I am going out for drinks and dinner with friends and we are choosing a New Brunswick place vs. a more suburban location we usually choose the suburban location for more and free parking.
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If free/convenient parking is really your priority, then suburbs will win every time. The cities with the most convenient parking are generally the ones with the least going for them.

NB has built several parking garages in the last decade or so. For a relatively dense little city, parking is actually quite plentiful.

If all else were equal, I might understand your point. But NB certainly has more and better dining/drinking options than most of the 'burbs around it.
 
Originally posted by NotInRHouse:
Fantastic categorization, but I think Berkeley is pretty close to San Fran (camden can help here)...my understand is it's right across the bay...like maybe Secaucus to NYC type distance.

Ann Arbor is interesting in that the Detroit metro has been in population decline for some time. But I think Michigan really has such a historic lure, we can't match it. And I think schools there are good, so professors stay in town, versus at RU, where they often live in Highland Park.
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Berkeley is right across the Bay from San Francisco. But the traffic is heavy, and keep in mind there's very congested a toll bridge in between. BART is an option, but (amazingly enough) not that many trains connect the Berkeley side of the line directly to San Francisco, and so a change is needed in Oakland. I believe are still direct buses from Berkeley to San Francisco, and special bus-only lanes, as I recall, on the Bay Bridge. I recall the trip as about 40 minutes, but it's probably worse now. Many people do commute from Berkeley to San Francisco. It's a hard comparison.FWIW, people really underestimate how hard it is to commute by car from one place to the other, and the bus and BART aren't always readily accessible.
 
There you go. Thanks.

I use Google Maps every day coming home from work. It's not always accurate. Waze is sometimes better. But I have seen jams not appear on either.
 
Agreed, parking is absolutely the wrong way to go. We want to build lots of rentals in the city so people will walk places, and if they have to work outside the city, they'll take mass transit. Parking in general is a gigantic waste of money and resources.
 
Have there been any updates to this project? New renderings?

I'm hoping for some real improvements at ground level - i.e., no wall and better public space.
 
LawMatt.....we are about to announce a new internationally recognized design team that has worked on several large scale urban projects that include residential, office, retail, transportation connections and public spaces.....
 
Originally posted by Cofifa:
LawMatt.....we are about to announce a new internationally recognized design team that has worked on several large scale urban projects that include residential, office, retail, transportation connections and public spaces.....
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Sounds good. I'm eager to see how the design evolves. I think this is a site where nothing will need to be compromised. It can be a project where you can have the square feet to make the numbers work, along with great urban design and a real public square/space.

I think this needs to be the primary gathering spot in - and crossroads of - NB. It's the perfect location - and where else would it be? Monument Square and Kilmer Park are not worthy of that title.
 
Originally posted by TheRut14:
I'm really excited about the rising of NB. To Cofifa or anyone else, what is the ultimate vision for New Brunswick? As someone who loves cities I'm wondering if you hope to build taller and taller or if you don't want to go too high. Is there a current city that you would say is a model for NB? Thanks.
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Bump. Wanted to see Cofifa's (or anyone else's) answer to this question.

Also, any update on when Ferren demolition will start?
 
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