OT: November 22, 1963

[dconifer]

So who knows every poster's political persuasion well enough to summarize? Such as "Righties believe conspiracy, lefties believe Oswald," for example.

In Tom Clancy's EXECUTIVE ORDERS, there is a similar situation to the Covid pandemic. In his world, the right-wingers supported the subsequent clampdown, and the left-wingers protested it. But we saw the opposite happen with Covid.

My depressing observation is that most people nowadays put party first, ahead of even their own ability to reason, so make their mind up based on which party holds the White House (a very sad state of affairs). But that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on this question, so I'm curious as to how it comes out, since there is no way to know the true answer about the assassination...

 

[WhiteBus]

Not a Biden issue, but yes, flushed you out as a Democrat. This whole thread has been political with many of your comments and insults clearly there for everyone to see. A idiot is someone who calls people out for the very same things they are doing. Yet your list across many topics of people you insult just grows by the day, just clueless. Enjoy your turkey, choke on it.

Wrong. 100% Republican. Try again. Why bring up Biden if you knew it wasn't his issue. You find out you are wrong and backtrack. You simply do not understand the declassification of documents process otherwise you wouldn't bring up why haven't all the the documents declassified. Shows your lack of knowledge. You also ignore the fact that many JFK assassination documents were already declassified.

 

[RUfinally2008]

Wrong. 100% Republican. Try again. Why bring up Biden if you knew it wasn't his issue. You find out you are wrong and backtrack. You simply do not understand the declassification of documents process otherwise you wouldn't bring up why haven't all the the documents declassified. Shows your lack of knowledge. You also ignore the fact that many JFK assassination documents were already declassified.bv

Why would I think Biden had anything to do with the JFK cover up when happened years before Biden was in office? Come on man!,lol Joe didn't even start his Crime Family yet, lol, clueless.I just brought up Biden decoder ring joke to bust your balls,and as usual you fell for it. WAIT, you don't really think Joe Joe has a real decoder ring do you?

 

[WhiteBus]

So who knows every poster's political persuasion well enough to summarize? Such as "Righties believe conspiracy, lefties believe Oswald," for example.

In Tom Clancy's EXECUTIVE ORDERS, there is a similar situation to the Covid pandemic. In his world, the right-wingers supported the subsequent clampdown, and the left-wingers protested it. But we saw the opposite happen with Covid.

My depressing observation is that most people nowadays put party first, ahead of even their own ability to reason, so make their mind up based on which party holds the White House (a very sad state of affairs). But that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on this question, so I'm curious as to how it comes out, since there is no way to know the true answer about the assassination...

I'm a Republican but believe Oswald did it all by himself so the analysis of party behavior isn't accurate. I was very into every conspiracy theory in the 70s and early 80s up until the time I realized I was reading fiction instead of true history.

 

[dconifer]

I'm a Republican but believe Oswald did it all by himself so the analysis of party behavior isn't accurate. I was very into every conspiracy theory in the 70s and early 80s up until the time I realized I was reading fiction instead of true history.

Thank you, Whitebus.

I wasn't really suggesting that I knew how this would break out by political persuasion; that was just an example.

For me, I find all the discussion on conspiracies fascinating, and some make a lot of sense, but my gut feeling is that we'd have more of a clue by now if they had any grounding in reality. So I'm in the same camp as you, I'd say. Politically, I'm completely independent and try to make up my own mind issue by issue. Neither the righties nor the lefties like me much :-)

 

[yessir321]

Why do I know that those who still have conspiracy theories over Kennedy are also election deniers…. why do I just know this? Lol

 

[mdk01]

Why do I know that those who still have conspiracy theories over Kennedy are also election deniers…. why do I just know this? Lol

Oliver Stone a 2020 election denier? Interesting.

 

[yessir321]

Oliver Stone a 2020 election denier? Interesting.

Oliver stone, likely not. Though much like the idea that Stephen a smith hates the cowboys when in reality, he doesn’t, he loves the ratings…. Oliver stone loves ratings…

Those on this board still harping about something that happened 60 years ago convinced of conspiracy…. Definitely election deniers….

 

[mdk01]

Oliver stone, likely not. Though much like the idea that Stephen a smith hates the cowboys when in reality, he doesn’t, he loves the ratings…. Oliver stone loves ratings…

Those on this board still harping about something that happened 60 years ago convinced of conspiracy…. Definitely election deniers….

Oliver Stone really believes it. Those are his politics.

 

[RUfinally2008]

Why do I know that those who still have conspiracy theories over Kennedy are also election deniers…. why do I just know this? Lol

Which election deniers? The ones that said Russia interfered in 2016 or the ones that said the 2020 election was stolen? Don't dismiss the fact both sides have used the same line, but only one has set forth committee after committee to go after one party.Lol.

 

[RUfinally2008]

Oliver stone, likely not. Though much like the idea that Stephen a smith hates the cowboys when in reality, he doesn’t, he loves the ratings…. Oliver stone loves ratings…

Those on this board still harping about something that happened 60 years ago convinced of conspiracy…. Definitely election deniers….

Said as if no Democrats{Hillary,Abrams} just for starters never called election results crooked, your a fool.

 

[Shelby65]

Colbert … look up what Luke and Mike Haag, two modern ballistics experts have to say about the bullets. They replicated every element of the shooting as reported, with nothing unexplained, “magic” or conspiracy.

Even published a peer-reviewed article on misunderstanding the bullet evidence. Find it on PubMed.

Do that little bit of research and then advise if / why you still don’t believe it.

One thing they point out is a high-powered bullet at close range (bullet 1) through soft-tissue won’t deform much if it does at all.

Bullet 2 hit bone first which caused it to start to break apart and separate into widely dispersed fragments.

They also replicated the timing of both shots from one shooter.

 

[colbert17]

Colbert … look up what Luke and Mike Haag, two modern ballistics experts have to say about the bullets. They replicated every element of the shooting as reported, with nothing unexplained, “magic” or conspiracy.

Even published a peer-reviewed article on misunderstanding the bullet evidence. Find it on PubMed.

Do that little bit of research and then advise if / why you still don’t believe it.

One thing they point out is a high-powered bullet at close range (bullet 1) through soft-tissue won’t deform much if it does at all.

Bullet 2 hit bone first which caused it to start to break apart and separate into widely dispersed fragments.

They also replicated the timing of both shots from one shooter.

I'll have to look into those resources. But can someone please answer my question re: if a bullet can just fall out of a wound?

 

[Shelby65]

Maybe it was out all along, its travel finally slowed/ended after exit in the clothing or ambulance cot sheets and only fell out onto the gurney in the hospital after. That can be explained.

What can't be explained is if the shots came too close together for one shooter...but they did not come too close together. Read the Haag explanations.

 

[rudad02]

Why was the Warren Commission reluctant to interview Jack Ruby and did so only under pressure. Why did the Warren Commission fail to recognize Ruby's connections to Organized Crime when the evidence of that connection was more than plentiful?

 

[colbert17]

What can't be explained is if the shots came too close together for one shooter...but they did not come too close together.

I've never challenged that

 

[Shelby65]

Some did challenge that and then the conspiracy belief mushrooms among people who don’t objectively consider evidence and explanation.

 

[dconifer]

Why was the Warren Commission reluctant to interview Jack Ruby and did so only under pressure. Why did the Warren Commission fail to recognize Ruby's connections to Organized Crime when the evidence of that connection was plentiful?

That's pretty interesting. If you read the verbatim interview in the Warren report, Ruby is begging to be taken out of Dallas to be questioned. He seemed very afraid of something close by. (I know the report pretty well, as do many of you, because I studied it for something I wrote about it).

Still, I'm not a big conspiracy theorist on this one, given all the attention and time that has passed...

 

[RU Cheese]

Yeah that's different. Kennedy was shot with a rifle. Not some secret tech or strategy. This is just motive and details stuff and should be released.

Bottom line for me is any time .gov is keeping secrets like this it raises a red flag for me. It seems very likely they are protecting themselves - not keeping national security type secrets.

Atomic secrets fine. Tech secrets fine. Strategy too.

Criminal stuff? BS. Release it or I'm suspicious.

Conspiracy is also a broad term. People like to question and debate shooters and bullets, but who and how it was enabled is often glossed over.

I'm the same as you re: the secrecy. Plus, the Jack Ruby thing - how we was so easily able to walk up and kill Oswald to end his denial - just strikes me as odd.

 

[RUScrew85]

Conspiracy is also a broad term. People like to question and debate shooters and bullets, but who and how it was enabled is often glossed over.

I'm the same as you re: the secrecy. Plus, the Jack Ruby thing - how we was so easily able to walk up and kill Oswald to end his denial - just strikes me as odd.

I can sorta see Ruby just walking up, unexpected. It just doesn't make sense to me why he would do it.

And things can appear to be a conspiracy without requiring central control or planning. If everyone concerned has similar motivations they just naturally do what looks like a big conspiracy.

 

[e5fdny]

Conspiracy is also a broad term. People like to question and debate shooters and bullets, but who and how it was enabled is often glossed over.

I'm the same as you re: the secrecy. Plus, the Jack Ruby thing - how was he so easily able to walk up and kill Oswald to end his denial - just strikes me as odd.

I can sorta see Ruby just walking up, unexpected. It just doesn't make sense to me why he would do it.

And things can appear to be a conspiracy without requiring central control or planning. If everyone concerned has similar motivations, they just naturally do what looks like a big conspiracy.

Me too.

The shock manifesting to rage I mentioned earlier in the thread.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Conspiracy is also a broad term. People like to question and debate shooters and bullets, but who and how it was enabled is often glossed over.

I'm the same as you re: the secrecy. Plus, the Jack Ruby thing - how we was so easily able to walk up and kill Oswald to end his denial - just strikes me as odd.

Also odd - How can a crazy person stakeout a window in a prominent building along a presidential parade route?

Answer (to this and your questions) = just the status of security back in the early 60s.

 

[mdk01]

I can sorta see Ruby just walking up, unexpected. It just doesn't make sense to me why he would do it.

And things can appear to be a conspiracy without requiring central control or planning. If everyone concerned has similar motivations they just naturally do what looks like a big conspiracy.

We're in a different world than Nov. 1963 when it comes to security. It got stepped up after the 60's assassinations and went on steroids after 9/11.

 

[rutrack]

Also odd - How can a crazy person stakeout a window in a prominent building along a presidential parade route?

Answer (to this and your questions) = just the status of security back in the early 60s.

Actually the United States House Select Committee on Assinations did conclude that scientific acoustical evidence established a high probability that at LEAST TWO Gunmen fired at the President.

United States House Select Committee on Assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[RUScrew85]

Actually the United States House Select Committee on Assinations did conclude that scientific acoustical evidence established a high probability that at LEAST TWO Gunmen fired at the President.

United States House Select Committee on Assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I wouldn't trust a House Select committee to tell me if the sun was shining. But I get your point.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Actually the United States House Select Committee on Assinations did conclude that scientific acoustical evidence established a high probability that at LEAST TWO Gunmen fired at the President.

United States House Select Committee on Assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Let's keep this a serious conversation.

 

[rutrack]

Let's keep this a serious conversation.

So you believe in the Warren Commission but not a House Committee 15 years later that had additional evidence..? That's interesting.

 

[SkilletHead2]

The other big question mark for me is the police found Oswald in the break room on the second floor about 75 seconds after the third shot. He would have had to leave the snipers nest, run to the other side of the building to place the rifle in the spot where it was found, run down 4 floors to the break room, buy a Coke and not be out of breath or at all flustered after shooting the president when he was found by the officer who sticked a gun in his stomach.
In addition, two girls were on the fourth floor and were using the same stairs at the same time as this and they did not see or hear anyone else on the stairs.

It appears he could have done it easily without even walking fast. From the Warren Commission report:

"In an effort to determine whether Oswald could have descended to the lunchroom from the sixth floor by the time Baker and Truly arrived, Commission counsel asked Baker and Truly to repeat their movements from the time of the shot until Baker came upon Oswald in the lunchroom. Baker placed himself on a motorcycle about 200 feet from the corner of Elm and Houston Streets where he said he heard the shots.357 Truly stood in front of the building. 358 At a given signal, they reenacted the event. Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated first shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds. 359

A test was also conducted to determine the time required to walk from the southeast corner of the sixth floor to the second-floor lunchroom by stairway. Special Agent John Howlett of the Secret Service carried a rifle from the southeast corner of the sixth floor along the east aisle to the northeast corner. He placed the rifle on the floor near the site where Oswald's rifle was actually found after the shooting. Then Howlett walked down the stairway to the second-floor landing and entered the lunchroom. The first test, run at normal walking pace, required 1 minute, 18 seconds; 360 the second test, at a "fast walk" took 1 minute, 14 seconds. 361 The second test. followed immediately after the first. The only interval was the time necessary to ride in the elevator from the second to the sixth floor and walk back to the southeast corner. Howlett was not short winded at the end of either test run. 362"

Shortly after this (page 152), the accounts of the two women and others are examined. Nothing there that would contradict what Oswald is purported to have done.

 

[RUScrew85]

So you believe in the Warren Commission but not a House Committee 15 years later that had additional evidence..? That's interesting.

I think he was joking.

 

[SkilletHead2]

Actually the United States House Select Committee on Assinations did conclude that scientific acoustical evidence established a high probability that at LEAST TWO Gunmen fired at the President.

United States House Select Committee on Assassinations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The House Committee's analysis was later refuted. The tape they were listening to was not recorded until about a minute after the assassination took place. From the National Academy of Sciences analysis:

"The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."

Ramsey, Norman F.; Alvarez, Luis W.; Chernoff, Herman; Dicke, Robert H.; Elkind, Jerome I.; Feggeler, John C.; Garwin, Richard L.; Horowitz, Paul; Johnson, Alfred; Phinney, Robert A.; Rader, Charles; Sarles, F. Williams (1982). Report of the Committee on Ballistic Acoustics (Report). Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press. p. 2. Retrieved August 21, 2015.

 

[e5fdny]

Also, odd - How can a crazy person stakeout a window in a prominent building along a presidential parade route?

Answer (to this and your questions) = just the status of security back in the early 60s.

We're in a different world than Nov. 1963 when it comes to security. It got stepped up after the 60's assassinations and went on steroids after 9/11.

I was part of the FDNY detail for a Marine One landing at the South Street Seaport when Clinton was president.

LOTS of moving parts that I'm sure many don't know or have even considered (but the Secret Service has). Although, as one agent told us: if they really want to get him...🤷‍♂️

 

[rutrack]

The House Committee's analysis was later refuted. The tape they were listening to was not recorded until about a minute after the assassination took place. From the National Academy of Sciences analysis:

"The acoustic analyses do not demonstrate that there was a grassy knoll shot, and in particular there is no acoustic basis for the claim of 95% probability of such a shot.
The acoustic impulses attributed to gunshots were recorded about one minute after the President had been shot and the motorcade had been instructed to go to the hospital.
Therefore, reliable acoustic data do not support a conclusion that there was a second gunman."

Ramsey, Norman F.; Alvarez, Luis W.; Chernoff, Herman; Dicke, Robert H.; Elkind, Jerome I.; Feggeler, John C.; Garwin, Richard L.; Horowitz, Paul; Johnson, Alfred; Phinney, Robert A.; Rader, Charles; Sarles, F. Williams (1982). Report of the Committee on Ballistic Acoustics (Report). Washington, D.C.: National Academy Press. p. 2. Retrieved August 21, 2015.

Interesting 10 years later the Justice Department debunked it. The Committee members did believe it was a conspiracy by members of organized crime

 

[SkilletHead2]

Interesting 10 years later the Justice Department debunked it. The Committee members did believe it was a conspiracy by members of organized crime

Actually, lots of different researchers debunked the dictabelt analysis. It was clearly in error. Just that the NAS tends to get the most respect on such things.

 

[mdk01]

LOTS of moving parts that I'm sure many don't know or have even considered (but the Secret Service has). Although, as one agent told us: if they really want to get him...🤷‍♂️

Not if Clint Eastwood is on the job (In the Line of Fire)

 

[NickKnight 1]

No that's JFK Jr

Jr died in a plane crash.

 

[RUScrew85]

Interesting 10 years later the Justice Department debunked it. The Committee members did believe it was a conspiracy by members of organized crime

The DOJ? I'd actually believe the Select Committee before those clowns.

 

[knightfan7]

Jr died in a plane crash.

and he's the reason Qanon folks went to Dealy Plaza last year, expecting him to rise from the dead, and announce he was going to reinstate Trump and become his VP.

You can't make this stuff up.

QAnon supporters gather over theory that JFK Jr. will emerge, announce Trump to be reinstated

Some QAnon conspiracy theorists gathered in Dallas as a theory circulated that John F. Kennedy Jr. would reappear and announce Trump was reinstated.

news.yahoo.com

 

[WhiteBus]

Conspiracy is also a broad term. People like to question and debate shooters and bullets, but who and how it was enabled is often glossed over.

I'm the same as you re: the secrecy. Plus, the Jack Ruby thing - how we was so easily able to walk up and kill Oswald to end his denial - just strikes me as odd.

Long story but Ruby had no intention to kill Oswald that day. Oswald was supposed to be transfered at 10am that day. Ruby was barely out of bed by then.
Another interview, an employee of Ruby needing money, waiting for an armored truck (which was going to be a decoy) and Oswald insistent demand to put on a sweater gave Ruby the perfect timing (he was there about a minute) to kill Oswald at 11:21. Crazy but true timeline.

 

[RUnTeX]

OT.

Rutgers football played in Dallas about a month and a half shy of the 50th anniversary of JFK's assassination, so there's that.

 

[yessir321]

Which election deniers? The ones that said Russia interfered in 2016 or the ones that said the 2020 election was stolen? Don't dismiss the fact both sides have used the same line, but only one has set forth committee after committee to go after one party.Lol.

I’d say both…