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OT: Will be warm (little/no snow) thru ~2/13, then a possible colder and snowier pattern

RU848789

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First pattern thread of this winter. Let's see how it goes - maybe even have some fun with it or perhaps even learn something - I always do reading what some of the top mets have to say. Keep in mind that the further we go out in time, the less accurate even pattern forecasts are, meaning the coming warm-up is virtually a lock, while the subsequent pattern flip to cold and possibly snowy in about 2 weeks is fairly likely with regard to colder temps, but confidence in a snowier than normal period is a fair amount less certain.

To be clear, I'm not ready to pull the trigger on predicting a colder and/or snowier than normal 2/14-2/28, yet, since 2-4 weeks out is still hard to forecast well, but I will say this is the best consensus we've seen on such a pattern 2+ weeks out this winter and it has many professional mets honking for a return to winter, including John Homenuk (Earthlight of message board fame), who is a pretty skeptical met usually (see his tweets below). If we still see consensus for a pattern change starting around 2/14 3-4 days from now, I'll be all in predicting a colder/snowier 2nd half of Feb (I've always felt more comfortable being within 10 days of the start of a pattern change). However, if the modeled pattern change fizzles and doesn't deliver meaningful snow for the region, we're likely looking at another sub-10" winter, at least for NYC and that would be the first time NYC has ever seen back-to-back winters with <10" of snow.

So, the average temp pattern we've been in for about the past week is expected to warm up somewhat later this week and then should warm up considerably from about 2/7 through 2/13, as per the CPC graphic below, which gives us a 70-80% likelihood of having above normal temps (normal, right now is about 41/22F in NB, rising to about 42/24F by 2/15 and to 46/27F by 3/1) from 2/7 through 2/13. Above and below normal temps aren't that difficult to forecast well for days 8-14, but snowfall/precip are much harder to forecast, but having said that it looks pretty solid that we're not going to see anything more than nuisance snow (i.e., below normal snow) from now through about 2/13. The average Feb snowfall in NB, a good location to evaluate, as it has a good data record, is 8.2". The current and near future pattern features a typical El Nino setup with a trough out west and a ridge in the eastern half of the country, leading to our area getting flow of air from the Pacific through the western US, which is usually warmer than normal for us, as the subtropical jet stream (the PacJet as it's often called) stays to our north, meaning we're not getting any cold flow from Canada from the polar jet stream.

However, every long term ensemble model (ensembles, where each model is run with 20-50 variations in initial conditions, to gauge parameter sensitivity are the primary tools for evaluating medium/long-range trends - they don't predict what will happen on specific days, which is impossible 2+ weeks out) forecast from the Euro, GFS, and CMC are showing a fairly rapid flip of the pattern to one where there is a persistent low/trough near the Aleutians, then a persistent ridge in the PacNW with the PacJet flowing clockwise around that high and diving down into the south and then heading up towards Greenland with a persistent trough in the eastern US, allowing colder air to penetrate to our area and opening up the possibility for storms to traverse near that jet and coming up the coast, potentially delivering winter weather. This pattern looks to remain in place from about 2/14 through the end of February and maybe into early/mid-March. It doesn't mean every day would be colderthan normal, but most would be and there's no guarantee of snow, but this kind of pattern is similar to what we've seen in other El Nino snowy February's, like 2010 (Feb is often the snowiest month during an El Nino, which features warm equatorial Pacific ocean temps). Also, given that this pattern flip is still almost 2 weeks away, it's possible the long range ensembles are wrong (it's happened before and it'll happen again, but they're right much more than wrong for patterns 2-4 weeks out).

Also, it's worth noting that the three outcomes for temp and snowfall predictions are simply below normal, normal and above normal, so just by guessing one would have a 1/3 probability of guessing right. I don't have these data at my fingertips right now, but what I've done in the past is looked at the top third, middle third and bottom third of past periods' temps and snowfall and how the period in question stacks up vs those categories (it'll be a bit more complicated for the first half and 2nd half of Feb as the avg temps are increasing, while the avg snowfall is decreasing through the month).

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/59981-february-2024/page/12/







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Thanks numbers, this information is very enlightening! It is always interesting how there are people who are into the weeds of a subject that I have very little interest in…other than knowing what today’s weather will be.
The topic is interesting and I did read all of it. About halfway through I realized that I am glad there are people out there who are into this stuff because weather predictions have gotten more accurate over the years precisely because people like you who live and breathe this stuff.
 
First pattern thread of this winter. Let's see how it goes - maybe even have some fun with it or perhaps even learn something - I always do reading what some of the top mets have to say. Keep in mind that the further we go out in time, the less accurate even pattern forecasts are, meaning the coming warm-up is virtually a lock, while the subsequent pattern flip to cold and possibly snowy in about 2 weeks is fairly likely with regard to colder temps, but confidence in a snowier than normal period is a fair amount less certain.

To be clear, I'm not ready to pull the trigger on predicting a colder and/or snowier than normal 2/14-2/28, yet, since 2-4 weeks out is still hard to forecast well, but I will say this is the best consensus we've seen on such a pattern 2+ weeks out this winter and it has many professional mets honking for a return to winter, including John Homenuk (Earthlight of message board fame), who is a pretty skeptical met usually (see his tweets below). If we still see consensus for a pattern change starting around 2/14 3-4 days from now, I'll be all in predicting a colder/snowier 2nd half of Feb (I've always felt more comfortable being within 10 days of the start of a pattern change). However, if the modeled pattern change fizzles and doesn't deliver meaningful snow for the region, we're likely looking at another sub-10" winter, at least for NYC and that would be the first time NYC has ever seen back-to-back winters with <10" of snow.

So, the average temp pattern we've been in for about the past week is expected to warm up somewhat later this week and then should warm up considerably from about 2/7 through 2/13, as per the CPC graphic below, which gives us a 70-80% likelihood of having above normal temps (normal, right now is about 41/22F in NB, rising to about 42/24F by 2/15 and to 46/27F by 3/1) from 2/7 through 2/13. Above and below normal temps aren't that difficult to forecast well for days 8-14, but snowfall/precip are much harder to forecast, but having said that it looks pretty solid that we're not going to see anything more than nuisance snow (i.e., below normal snow) from now through about 2/13. The average Feb snowfall in NB, a good location to evaluate, as it has a good data record, is 8.2". The current and near future pattern features a typical El Nino setup with a trough out west and a ridge in the eastern half of the country, leading to our area getting flow of air from the Pacific through the western US, which is usually warmer than normal for us, as the subtropical jet stream (the PacJet as it's often called) stays to our north, meaning we're not getting any cold flow from Canada from the polar jet stream.

However, every long term ensemble model (ensembles, where each model is run with 20-50 variations in initial conditions, to gauge parameter sensitivity are the primary tools for evaluating medium/long-range trends - they don't predict what will happen on specific days, which is impossible 2+ weeks out) forecast from the Euro, GFS, and CMC are showing a fairly rapid flip of the pattern to one where there is a persistent low/trough near the Aleutians, then a persistent ridge in the PacNW with the PacJet flowing clockwise around that high and diving down into the south and then heading up towards Greenland with a persistent trough in the eastern US, allowing colder air to penetrate to our area and opening up the possibility for storms to traverse near that jet and coming up the coast, potentially delivering winter weather. This pattern looks to remain in place from about 2/14 through the end of February and maybe into early/mid-March. It doesn't mean every day would be colderthan normal, but most would be and there's no guarantee of snow, but this kind of pattern is similar to what we've seen in other El Nino snowy February's, like 2010 (Feb is often the snowiest month during an El Nino, which features warm equatorial Pacific ocean temps). Also, given that this pattern flip is still almost 2 weeks away, it's possible the long range ensembles are wrong (it's happened before and it'll happen again, but they're right much more than wrong for patterns 2-4 weeks out).

Also, it's worth noting that the three outcomes for temp and snowfall predictions are simply below normal, normal and above normal, so just by guessing one would have a 1/3 probability of guessing right. I don't have these data at my fingertips right now, but what I've done in the past is looked at the top third, middle third and bottom third of past periods' temps and snowfall and how the period in question stacks up vs those categories (it'll be a bit more complicated for the first half and 2nd half of Feb as the avg temps are increasing, while the avg snowfall is decreasing through the month).

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic/59981-february-2024/page/12/







MIFshgQ.png
And last…that’s how it goes.

tumblr_n8by7s6loc1qzbqw1o1_500.gif
 
One day closer to the pattern flip starting somewhere around 2/12-2/14, with every major ensemble model suite (Euro, GFS, CMC) all continuing to show just about the same pattern evolution into a colder than normal regime with multiple winter storm threats over the subsequent 2-4 weeks after the pattern change, i.e., up through the end of Feb to perhaps mid-March.

Two really good Twitter posts/threads on this, fro Logan Giles and Mike Thomas, illustrating the huge Aleutian low forming, along with the huge PacNW high forming, forcing the STJet to dive south around the clockwise high flow, carving out a huge trough in the eastern US, bringing us cold air and possible storms, which have a higher likelihood of coming up the coast due to the -NAO (blocking) expected to be in place.





Can't yet say this is locked in, but confidence keeps growing and as I said in the other thread, over the last 7 years 9 of 11 (82%) temperature pattern forecasts have been right and 7 of 11 (64%) snow trend forecasts have been right vs. a ~33% chance of guessing being right for 3 outcomes of two variables (above normal/below normal/normal for temp and snow). Very strong performance on temperature and pretty good performance on snowfall. Still no guarantees, but I find it fun to see how these pattern predictions turn out, noting that I'm taking these pattern predictions from respected pros - I'm not making my own pattern predictions, just choosing which ones I bring to the board (as there are far more pattern predictions made.

Also, the prediction for no snow through about 2/13 is looking pretty good, although there's a potential system around 2/6 that isn't that far off the coast on some models (with enough cold air in place), which needs to be watched - even lousy patterns can produce snowfall if the ingredients all come together at the right time/place.

https://rutgers.forums.rivals.com/t...19-still-some-uncertainty.272579/post-6671193
 
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LOL, same cast of characters whining about RU#'s weather threads.

I gotta say, it's pretty shocking.
 
I like to look at the AccuWeather monthly forecast and it tends to be generally correct. It has a similar forecast for the first 14 days and not so bad for the rest of the month. I don’t see any major snowstorms for this year maybe 1-2 inches. All I care about is whether I have to use my snowblower again. I used it once even though I probably didn’t need to but I wanted to start it up at least once a year.
 
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This thread is wishcasting taken to a whole new level. What's next? Numbers live streaming his performance of an Eskimo snow dance.

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Your obsession with responding negatively to these weather threads is weird. Just.....don't......open......the.......thread! He makes it pretty obvious it's a weather related thread based on the title lol.
 
Hopefully nobody here takes a rodent's forecasts seriously and this year it's looking very likely the little varmint will be wrong again. Every medium/long-term ensemble model forecast continues to show a major pattern shift starting around 2/13-14 (which is now only 11-12 days away), ushering in colder than normal temps while still having a decent number of storms, which likely equates to a snowier than normal period from about 2/13-14 through the end of Feb (once we get past the warm/snowless first 2 weeks of Feb, which are now a lock) and possibly through mid-March. Given the consistency of the models on this and the decent number of well-respected pros (see below) who are on board with the pattern change, I'm jumping on that bandwagon too and am going out on a limb and calling for colder and snowier than normal conditions from 2/13 through 2/28.

Nick Gregory is the latest met to be on board with this and he's one of the 2-3 best in NYC, IMO. He's generally pretty conservative, but he's calling for a pretty good chance of another ~15" or so of snow for NYC (which means the 95 corridor from at least Trenton to SE CT, really) this winter as per his graphic below, which shows 15-23" of snow for the whole winter for the 95 corridor and the coast (and 25-35" a bit NW of 95). The snow would come after about mid-February, which is when the pattern shift is expected and 15" from mid-Feb through the end of winter would be well above normal (which is about 9-10" during that time).

And if you want to see the nitty gritty details of what, exactly, the models are showing with regard to this pattern change, DT's/WxRisk's video, below does a nice job of that (starting around 8 minutes in), i.e., by mid-Feb, the MJO (Madden-Julian Oscillation) is forecast to be going into phases 8 and 1, the AO (Arctic Oscillation) and NAO (North Atlantic Oscillation) heading negative on the Atlantic side of North America, and the PNA (Pacific/North America pattern) heads positive and the EPO (Eastern Pacific Oscillation) heads negative. Every one of those teleconnections is favorable for eastern US cold and possibly snow in winter.



There are also snowfall maps starting to circulate on social media showing ridiculous amounts of snow for the NE US and our area (like 20-30") from mid-Feb through mid-March. They're fun to look at but a bit silly to forecast this far out. In fact, we've had somewhat similar patterns to what we're expecting to have soon without getting much snow (sometimes too much cold air suppresses storms and sometimes timing just never lines up right for major snowstorms), but these patterns do produce snow for our area much more often than most other patterns and have been responsible for some of our snowiest periods ever, like Feb 2010

https://www.americanwx.com/bb/topic...n-part-of-the-nyc-subforum-event-obs/page/46/



gPb2cTF.png


Finally, NOAA's CPC (Climate Prediction Center) has partially bought in to this major pattern change but not completely, as the graphics only have the SE US being colder than normal, while the mid-Atlantic and NE US have average temps (and slightly drier than normal conditions) for the 2/17-3/1 period. However, the actual discussion from the CPC mentions a couple of times that colder/wetter is a distinct possibility for the NE US during this time.

https://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/WK34/

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Your obsession with responding negatively to these weather threads is weird. Just.....don't......open......the.......thread! He makes it pretty obvious it's a weather related thread based on the title lol.
It’s a mission for him. He went after poor Adele Springsteen too. Is nothing sacred? I know the answer. 😂
 
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Your obsession with responding negatively to these weather threads is weird. Just.....don't......open......the.......thread! He makes it pretty obvious it's a weather related thread based on the title lol.
His only goal is a response and then rehashed arguments about stupid stuff that has been argued about for years. It's like the movie Wargames - the only winning move is not to play.
 
Hopefully nobody here takes a rodent's forecasts seriously and this year it's looking very likely the little varmint will be wrong again. Every medium/long-term ensemble model forecast continues to show a major pattern shift starting around 2/13-14 (which is now only 11-12 days away), ushering in colder than normal temps while still having a decent number of storms, which likely equates to a snowier than normal period from about 2/13-14 through the end of Feb (once we get past the warm/snowless first 2 weeks of Feb, which are now a lock) and possibly through mid-March. Given the consistency of the models on this and the decent number of well-respected pros (see below) who are on board with the pattern change, I'm jumping on that bandwagon too and am going out on a limb and calling for colder and snowier than normal conditions from 2/13 through 2/28.
Don’t be so hard on yourself.

Not everyone calls you that.
 
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His only goal is a response and then rehashed arguments about stupid stuff that has been argued about for years. It's like the movie Wargames - the only winning move is not to play.
If you learned that lesson 10 years ago, I would moved on a long time ago. However, being as sensitive as you are, you don't learn that well. The only way someone can be trolled is by letting themselves be trolled.

think-about-it-bayo.gif



You're welcome!
 
If you learned that lesson 10 years ago, I would moved on a long time ago. However, being as sensitive as you are, you don't learn that well. The only way someone can be trolled is by letting themselves be trolled.

think-about-it-bayo.gif



You're welcome!
Give it up. Pathetic that you keep going with this. It’s actually boring at this point.
 
Give it up. Pathetic that you keep going with this. It’s actually boring at this point.
Took me almost 10 years to teach slow numbers, wonder how quick of a student you will be? Pretty slow as of now. LOL!
 
Took me almost 10 years to teach slow numbers, wonder how quick of a student you will be? Pretty slow as of now. LOL!
Get the f outta here. You are total garbage. Try contributing something meaningful about Rutgers sports. And you haven’t slowed numbers at all. He still posts away as will I. Grown ass man doing this…complete garbage. 😂
 
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Expect below average, frigid temperatures the weekend of Feb 17-18. How do I know? Devils-Flyers on the 17th and Islanders-Rangers on the 18th at the Meadowlands.
 
If you learned that lesson 10 years ago, I would moved on a long time ago. However, being as sensitive as you are, you don't learn that well. The only way someone can be trolled is by letting themselves be trolled.

think-about-it-bayo.gif



You're welcome!
In all seriousness, I've always known it, as your MO is very transparent. The difference was, that up until about 2018 or 2019 the mods here would police weather threads and thread-ban you for your trolling, but for reasons I can only speculate on they stopped doing that. And while there are times I'll still go toe-to-toe arguing (I do enjoy that sometimes), for at least the last couple of years I rarely get involved in major bickering in weather threads, at least not until the event is over. Once over, the gloves come back off, as the thread is no longer topical or useful to posters at that point (like in the 1/19 event thread). So, you can continue to expect me to not respond to any troll posts in this or other weather threads before the event is over. And if we're lucky others won't either and maybe you can start acting like a normal person again. Or not. Your call.
 
In all seriousness, I've always known it, as your MO is very transparent. The difference was, that up until about 2018 or 2019 the mods here would police weather threads and thread-ban you for your trolling, but for reasons I can only speculate on they stopped doing that. And while there are times I'll still go toe-to-toe arguing (I do enjoy that sometimes), for at least the last couple of years I rarely get involved in major bickering in weather threads, at least not until the event is over. Once over, the gloves come back off, as the thread is no longer topical or useful to posters at that point (like in the 1/19 event thread). So, you can continue to expect me to not respond to any troll posts in this or other weather threads before the event is over. And if we're lucky others won't either and maybe you can start acting like a normal person again. Or not. Your call.
You reply all the time and fall for the same trolls over and over again. You have a few trigger topics that make you freakout, which I throw down from time to time as red meat. The funny thing is, nowadays many of my weather posts are just conversations with Bac and a few others I agreed with (that current weather models/forecast are complete garbage and most media outlets wishcast for eyeballs or clicks). You just need to accept the facts. stop being so sensitive, and start acting like a normal person again. Or not. Your call.

Besides, there hasn't been much winter weather over the past 2 years. If there weren't any winter threads during this time, it wouldn't even matter. As such, might as well have fun with meaningless threads when someone starts one.
 
Yup, whether you think these threads hit rock bottom, they sink even lower.

Its like saying in December at the start of winter its going to get colder with increasing chances of snow

Geez ya think the odds are pretty decent that it will snow sometime between February 1 and mid march just about every year
 
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One other thing for people to remember when talking about large scale patterns is the outcomes being discussed, like colder or snowier than average for the mid-Atlantic/NE US, for example, doesn't mean that everyone in those areas will see those outcomes, especially with respect to snow, as that's just too hard to predict for every location. Just look at the 1/19 storm where the vagaries of the storm gave DC/Balt/Philly/Boston 5 " or so, but gave NYC 0.5". It happens. From a big picture perspective that would qualify as verifying, overall for "snowy" for the region, but not every location would necessarily see a snowy outcome (that's just one storm of course, not a 2-4 week period, but the point remains).
 
Are we now posting forecasts for 15 inch snowstorm one month in advance


Wow
No, who said that? I posted Nick Gregory's forecast for a snowier period from mid-Feb to the end of winter, including his best guess of 15" of snow for NYC Metro for that period - not one storm.
 
One other thing for people to remember when talking about large scale patterns is the outcomes being discussed, like colder or snowier than average for the mid-Atlantic/NE US, for example, doesn't mean that everyone in those areas will see those outcomes, especially with respect to snow, as that's just too hard to predict for every location. Just look at the 1/19 storm where the vagaries of the storm gave DC/Balt/Philly/Boston 5 " or so, but gave NYC 0.5". It happens. From a big picture perspective that would qualify as verifying, overall for "snowy" for the region, but not every location would necessarily see a snowy outcome (that's just one storm of course, not a 2-4 week period, but the point remains).

CYO post
 
Colder than normal could be upper 30s rather than the mid 40s
Colder than normal for NB would be about 2F below normal and normal highs are 42F on 2/14 and 46F on 3/1 in NB, so about 2F less than that would be below normal, i.e., in the bottom 1/3 of outcomes vs. NB's 130 year record of weather. Roughly speaking.
 
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