Carino: Dickie V on Pikiell
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Well another Gruninger decision that haunts us Young over Vitale. Though Young was probably our alltime best coach. Who knows what our legacy been if Vitale was our head coach.
Myth.
Tom Young was a great choice as coach, and a great coach. It IS true he was not a great recruiter, and it is also true he was unable to take advantage of RU's Final Four participation in 1976. But he was a GREAT coach.
Vitale DID want the RU job, and it is possible Lloyd recommended Vitale for the job. But in MY opinion, then and now, Vitale was neither the right profile for the job, nor was he ready for ti. This despite what he did at the U of Detroit. People forget Vitale was MAYBE 2 years out of being a High School coach (East Rutherford High?) at the time Lloyd left. Rutgers, appropriately, desired to repalce Lloyd with a coach who had already been a COLLEGE head coach.
Young was a proven SUCCESSFUL head coach, having had success at every level. Young had PLAYED basketball at Maryland, had been the head coach at Catholic University - 9 years without 1 losing record, and an overall record of 136-88. He then spent 2 years as an assistant at Maryland. He was then hired to be the head coach at American, where he had an overall record of 61-37, with their record improving in each season he was there. He coached Kermit Washington at American - and helped turn him into an All American and an NBA player.
Young was the best basketball head coach RU ever had - and by a MILE. He took RU to 5 straight post season bids (NIT and NCAA), and 7 of 9 years, from 1974-75 season, through the 1982-83 seasons.
Young's specialty was coaching UP players. His coaching STYLE was to build his team around ONE player as a centerpiece - though the ultimate success of his teams did depend on the quality of the supporting cast. James Bailey was not a marquee prospect, though athletic. Roy Hinson was very raw, and not highly recruited or regarded. Same with Kelvin Troy and John Battle. Yet Young build successful teams around each of those players - except Battle (winning records, but no post season with Battle). Young turned Bailey into an All American, and Hinson, Troy and Battle into college stars - like he did with Kermit Washington at American, and later at ODU with I think Gatling. He also coached Kenny Gattison for 1 year. I believe Hollis Copeland was also a Young recruit - certainly Eddie Jordan was, as well.
Vitale was ... a great recruiter ... who also was likely a little skeevy around the edges as a recruiter ... and very raw professionally in 1973.
Young was the right choice at the time, over Vitale. Period. Gruninger made MANY mistakes - Young was not one of them.
Comparing the two side by side at the time, Young was the clear cut choice based on experience and previous success. Looking back at it now, Young failed to capitalize on where RU was in the basketball world at the time (not all Young's fault). Would Vitale have been the better long term choice? Possibly but we'll never know the answer as to whether Vitale would be retiring now with 800 wins if he got the job.
Clearly - Tom Young did a lot of GREAT things and without a doubt was our best coach alltime. It just a little revisionists history in terms of what if. As for Gruninger - RU to this day still suffers from some of his bad decisions.
I believe that city of Rome tournament was one of the biggest single events that shaped the future of RU basketball. If he had not lost Jo Jo Hunter, Billy Bryant and probably Hawkeye Whitney while he was out of the country he would not have lost the momentum from the final four run.
Let's make one other thing VERY clear: Fred Gruninger did not have complete control over the hire. (I know I've said this before.) If you read Vitale's first book -- admittedly not an easy task -- he tells the story of Uncle Freddy's response when Dickie first approached him about the job. All he could do was forward his name to the committee.
That's the way Rutgers worked. It was a mom-and-pop operation, and basically stayed that way until Mulcahy came along. It's also why I don't completely blame Gruninger for any decision, although who knows what a strong, persuasive personality might have done with those "committees" back then?
Tom Young was an outstanding coach. Averaged just shy of 20 wins a year for 12 years. And yes, he was not a great recruiter, he was a great COACH. But remember his last decent group? The ones that (hopefully) graduated in 1983 -- Hinson, Black, Brunson, Tillman (a transfer, of course). Three of them leaving high school in 1979. And when was the Big East formed? When was one of the top programs in the East left out of the most transformative basketball conference ever? Yeah.
Cool side note -- when Young was at Old Dominion I was a student, and I wrote a piece about how I grew up with him coaching Rutgers and was glad to see they were decent (would be 18-12 and in the NIT, his last postseason trip) and we were still stuck with Littlepage. A few weeks later I get a letter on ODU stationery, thanking me for my "kind words." (I seldom have kind words, but it happens.) And I couldn't prove how he saw my piece in the pre-Internet era until I bumped into the ever-awesome Joe Boylan at the Somerset Diner and asked him about it. Sure enough, he had passed it along. (I still think they should have offered Joe the interim label for a year, did a real coaching search after the season and avoided the Littlepage debacle, but that's a whole lot of water -- and defeat -- under the bridge.)
Anyway, yes, I was a Young fan. And to say Vitale (always prefaced with "the volatile" when mentioned in Home News stories back then) was some kind of perfect choice is pure hindsight. Yes, he recruited Phil Sellers and changed Rutgers basketball. But he might have burned out in a very short time. He was more nuts on the sidelines than he was on TV. Young was a safe pick, and oh by the way ended up going 239-116 at Rutgers on his way to an overall 524-328 record. (only had to look up the second one!)
That's the way Rutgers worked. It was a mom-and-pop operation, and basically stayed that way until Mulcahy came along. It's also why I don't completely blame Gruninger for any decision, although who knows what a strong, persuasive personality might have done with those "committees" back then?
Tom Young was an outstanding coach. Averaged just shy of 20 wins a year for 12 years. And yes, he was not a great recruiter, he was a great COACH. But remember his last decent group? The ones that (hopefully) graduated in 1983 -- Hinson, Black, Brunson, Tillman (a transfer, of course). Three of them leaving high school in 1979. And when was the Big East formed? When was one of the top programs in the East left out of the most transformative basketball conference ever? Yeah.
Cool side note -- when Young was at Old Dominion I was a student, and I wrote a piece about how I grew up with him coaching Rutgers and was glad to see they were decent (would be 18-12 and in the NIT, his last postseason trip) and we were still stuck with Littlepage. A few weeks later I get a letter on ODU stationery, thanking me for my "kind words." (I seldom have kind words, but it happens.) And I couldn't prove how he saw my piece in the pre-Internet era until I bumped into the ever-awesome Joe Boylan at the Somerset Diner and asked him about it. Sure enough, he had passed it along. (I still think they should have offered Joe the interim label for a year, did a real coaching search after the season and avoided the Littlepage debacle, but that's a whole lot of water -- and defeat -- under the bridge.)
Anyway, yes, I was a Young fan. And to say Vitale (always prefaced with "the volatile" when mentioned in Home News stories back then) was some kind of perfect choice is pure hindsight. Yes, he recruited Phil Sellers and changed Rutgers basketball. But he might have burned out in a very short time. He was more nuts on the sidelines than he was on TV. Young was a safe pick, and oh by the way ended up going 239-116 at Rutgers on his way to an overall 524-328 record. (only had to look up the second one!)
80RU, I remember that trip to Rome like it was yesterday. I have the newspaper articles in a scrapbook and everyone thought we would get 4 guys who were all ranked among the Top 25 or 30 in the nation in Street & Smith magazine. I never can remember who the 4th guy was but Hunter, Whitney and Bryant's names always stand out. Instead we got Milligan and Rodney Duncan.
Vitale was a hall of fame coach in his own mind only. He coached 4 years at University of Detroit and made the NCAAs once and then won about 30% of his games over a season and change with the Pistons before getting canned. Yes, Vitale was the ASSISTANT coach who recruited Phil Sellers. But, Young was a versatile coach that was National Coach of the Year with a run and gun team but also had successful teams that ran offense through the post. The most successful pros from Rutgers were all Young recruits like Bailey (#6 overall), Hinson, Jordan, and Battle. Say what you want about how it ended with Young but he was a damn good coach and has the record to prove it.
Grunninger's biggest sin and I defy anyone to dispute this was to fail to get us into the big east early. Either Young or Vitale would have propelled us into long term BB auccess had we got in on the ground floor. Tom Young hated Grunninger and that is a fact. Thia comes from my close relative who was a court club referee and a card playing companion of Tom Young.
In my opinion Vitale would have reloaded the roster with Phil Sellers and Mike Dabney type players every year at RU. He may not have lasted long at RU as HC but he showed that he could recruit top national type players here.
Vitale recruited Sellers away from ND and Dabney from Al McGuire at Marquette. No doubt that he would have continued to recruit at that level going forward.
Vitale recruited Sellers away from ND and Dabney from Al McGuire at Marquette. No doubt that he would have continued to recruit at that level going forward.
Not terribly surprising, and very plausible.
Also, I believe Sellers had buyer's remorse on ND because ND also signed Adrian Dantley - who played the exact same position as Sellers (was the same size, also), but was one of the very few players in the US ranked even higher than Sellers - Sellers was thought to be one of the top 10 High School Seniors, but so was Dantley.
Sellers was actually a better all around college player than Dantley, in my opinion (despite the fact that Dantley was 1st Team AA and Sellers was not): Better defender, better rebounder, fiercer competitor, better passer. But Dantley was the better scorer: Better shooter, with greater shooting range, and better FT shooter.
Dantley was a 1st team AA in 1975 and 1976, while Sellers was a 3rd Team AA in 1975 and 2nd Team AA in 1976.
Though both were nominally listed as WF's, both were really PF's, in 6'4" to 6'5" bodies. Dantley was an NBA star, while Sellers only had a cup of coffee, in the NBA. It shows how narrow a margin it takes to make it in the NBA, sometimes. Dantley was 1" taller than Sellers, was about 20-30 pounds heavier - and that much stronger as a result. That size difference while small, was also hugely important, in my opinion. It made the difference between Sellers being able to play the PF position, and NOT being able to do so. At 6'4" and 200 pounds, Sellers simply could not play PF. At 6'5" and 220 to 230 pounds, Dantley COULD. And Sellers just could not play WF or 2G: He was probably quick enough to play WF (though not 2G), but he simply was not a good enough shooter to do so. Also, so much of Dantley's game was enhanced not only by his physical strength that allowed him to create the space for interior shots (Sellers simply did not have that strength), but also by his superior and above average FT shooting skills (maybe 81% to 82%): He drew a TON of fouls. Sellers also drew a lot of fouls - and if he could have played inside in the NBA would also have done so. But Sellers was only an OK FT shooter, maybe 70%.
Academics was definitely the issue. Whether he was actually rejected or Sellers got cold feet because he didn't think he'd cut it, I'm not sure any of us know for sure.
Interesting – – the same source claimed by one of the the people who told me otherwise.
Jelly nails this
Plus young also was great at changing the style of the team to his strength
He ran like hell with 75-76
But he "slowed" it down in bailey senior year when we played better half court defense and not as adapt pushing the ball
Same in the Hinson era
Adapted the play to his team's strength
If he only didn't slow it down in Greensboro in 79....sigh
Plus young also was great at changing the style of the team to his strength
He ran like hell with 75-76
But he "slowed" it down in bailey senior year when we played better half court defense and not as adapt pushing the ball
Same in the Hinson era
Adapted the play to his team's strength
If he only didn't slow it down in Greensboro in 79....sigh
When I am at the end of my road I will still be able to recite the names of the 75-76 hoops squad...And I will still be muttering my mantra of the past 40 years...
...
What the hell happenned???
...
What the hell happenned???
Jelly, Sellers did make First Team AP All American in 1976. I still have the article in my 1976 RU scrapbook.
Sellers was a year older than Dantley and Dantley went hardship in 1976 after his junior year so I don't think your scenario of Sellers being scared off by Dantley can be accurate. Makes a nice story though.
Jelly
As much as I would have liked Sellers at ND Dantley was the better player.
You can blow off all the reasons he didn't have much of a pro career but I can tell you AD was a great defender--------not slightly great. You can't play in the NBA for the length of time he played consistently giving up 5-6 inches every night if you aren't a great defender----and there was no comparison as a scorer.
You're talking about a guy who averaged 30 a game for 5 straight years at the highest level of basketball-----and Phil Sellers was the better player ?
Please
I'm not going to get involved in a long thread about this and you're entitled to your opinion but it isn't even close.
As much as I would have liked Sellers at ND Dantley was the better player.
You can blow off all the reasons he didn't have much of a pro career but I can tell you AD was a great defender--------not slightly great. You can't play in the NBA for the length of time he played consistently giving up 5-6 inches every night if you aren't a great defender----and there was no comparison as a scorer.
You're talking about a guy who averaged 30 a game for 5 straight years at the highest level of basketball-----and Phil Sellers was the better player ?
Please
I'm not going to get involved in a long thread about this and you're entitled to your opinion but it isn't even close.
I see Dick Vitale every so often in Sarasota, FL these days. He told me that he gave Sellers a tryout with the Pistons when he was coaching there. Sounded like he wanted to find a roster spot for Phil. But he said that Phil couldn't shoot as well as the other guys at his position on the team. Mentioned Terry Tyler as a guy ahead of Phil, who played at Detroit for him.
Vitale often speaks to Sellers, Mike Dabney and lots of other guys that played for him at Detroit. He speaks very highly of his former players and has helped them in their careers outside of basketball. One of his former guards at Detroit now owns 5-6 Ford dealerships in Michigan. Vitale got him into the management training program at Ford after graduation. He is very thoughtful and well spoken in person and not the Dickie V personna that we are used to seeing on TV.
I disagree that Tom Young was best RU basketball coach. While he didn't stay very long, the best coach Rutgers ever had was Bill Foster. He set the stage for future success by raising the quality of the program immensely and then look at his postRutgers track record. I realize most of you were not around during his tenure but he was a great coach.
Enough with this crap about not joining the founding of the big East.
While it is true that this KILLED Rutgers Basketball.. it was a legitimate choice to make at that time. You had JoePA whispering in peoples ears about an eastern football conference.. and Villanova, Pitt, Temple, WVU and Rutgers were all listening. Now, it is true that Nova and Pitt would quickly join the Big East... and maybe the BBALL schools and SHU helped keep a Rutgers invite on the back-burner... and if the Big East had taken in Penn State in 1982.. Rutgers certainly would have joined then.. and we'd have that all-sports conference to this very day.
In any case, turning down teh Big East lead to PSU going to the big Ten.. doomed the Big East football schools and lead directly to Rutgers joining the Big Ten. Way to go Freddie G!
While it is true that this KILLED Rutgers Basketball.. it was a legitimate choice to make at that time. You had JoePA whispering in peoples ears about an eastern football conference.. and Villanova, Pitt, Temple, WVU and Rutgers were all listening. Now, it is true that Nova and Pitt would quickly join the Big East... and maybe the BBALL schools and SHU helped keep a Rutgers invite on the back-burner... and if the Big East had taken in Penn State in 1982.. Rutgers certainly would have joined then.. and we'd have that all-sports conference to this very day.
In any case, turning down teh Big East lead to PSU going to the big Ten.. doomed the Big East football schools and lead directly to Rutgers joining the Big Ten. Way to go Freddie G!
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