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Cliffs On Net Neutrality?

I posted the link for all to read and I quoted the relevant parts.

But given that the act was written in 1934 and the FCC set a precedent by labeling the ISPs as telecommunications providers, it not a far stretch to apply these sections to websites as the FCC saw fit.


(that is, there is usually only one cable internet provider in a given market).

According to this article only 28% have access to only 1 provider.

Son shines a light on the fact that 37% of Americans have only two wired broadband providers, 28% have just one, and 2% have no wired broadband ISPs at all.

I'm not aware of any cable providers censoring or filtering content, can you provide some examples that you feel were big enough to put all ISPs under government control?




http://www.extremetech.com/internet/178465-woe-is-isp-30-of-americans-cant-choose-their-service-provider
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
the speed at which your traffic moves as you describe above will not be an issue for 99.9% of new .coms. 99.9% of dot coms will be able to live at whatever lower speeds the ISPs hypothetically could conceive (please note that in the life of the internet this has not happened) And my point is that when you reach the level of having to worry about paying the ISPs for the fast lanes you already have to spend a bunch of capital probably on an order of magnitude higher than you would pay for you fast lane.
I am not sure why you would even think that. I am not talking about some restaurant or landscaping business looking to put in a quickie website I am talking about someone who wants to make a .com. You know that an internet business is much more elaborate. You cannot honestly think that a website that is crippled will do equally as one that is not.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
I posted the link for all to read and I quoted the relevant parts.

But given that the act was written in 1934 and the FCC set a precedent by labeling the ISPs as telecommunications providers, it not a far stretch to apply these sections to websites as the FCC saw fit.
The First Amendment was written in the 1790s. Does that mean that it shouldn't apply today because it is old? Of course not.

The Communication Act was originally passed by Congress in 1934 but has been updated many times over the years. The law gives the FCC \ authority to determine what communications services should be regulated under it. This is by design--it was written such that it would allow the regulatory framework to evolve as technology does.

The Internet is a communications network. ISPs are the links to that network. The FCC has declared that those links, is a Common Carrier under Title II. It is not much different than the voice telephone network. The network is what falls under the regulation, the content of that network does not--just like telephone calls. The government doesn't get a say in what phone numbers you can call, nor does your phone company.

Broadband internet access actually was classified under Title II until 2005. If you look at the history of the expansion of access, it really exploded while regulated under Title II. It wasn't until broadband was deregulated that the you started to see ISPs try to milk the already-built infrastructure through usage caps and overage fees. Mobile telephone networks (at least the voice part) has always been Title II and that didn't stop the explosive growth in the sector.


So what would Title II do? Let's take a look at the law itself. Here are some parts of it and how they could affect ISP customers:
Section 201 gives the FCC power to require ISPs to interconnect with other ISPs. This may have prevented the issue between Verizon and backbone provider Level3 which affected Netflix (and other services). Verizon allowed their peering links with Level3 to become saturated and refused to open additional links with Level3 thus degrading Netflix for Verizon subscribers, along with others services which would have transversed those links. Under Title II, the FCC could fine an ISP for allowing their peering points to become saturated and not work to rectify the situation.Section 201 also prohibits unjust charges from ISPs. A possible benefit to consumers for this is that ISPs could be restricted in the way the handle usage caps and overage charges. For instance, in the areas where Comcast has instituted usage caps and overage charges they make you buy a $10 bucket of 50 GB for using as little as 1 bit over your limit. Comcast's pricing comes out to 20 cents per GB at best (assuming you use 100% of it) but that is still a huge markup over Comcast's actual cost to deliver that data.Section 202 prohibits a Title II carrier from discriminating in "charges, practices, regulations, facilities, or services". Your ISP wouldn't be able to charge you differently based on what Internet services you use. As an example, an ISP wouldn't be able to charge you extra to be able to play XBox Live games online.Section 208 gives the FCC power to investigate consumer complaints and compel ISPs to satisfactorily address those complaints.Section 222 would require ISPs to protect the confidentiality of customer information including their usage data. ISPs would not be allowed to sell your usage data to marketers unless you gave them permission to do so.
 
Net neutrality is essential to keep the internet from becoming what cable has become. Placing the ISPs under title II will force the companies to give you what they promised. Currently, as the situation stands, the ISPs have taken hundreds of billions of dollars from the taxpayers (literally), and done nothing.

With the new rules that were proposed last week, there will be real competition for the internet. Local municipalities can offer the internet as well without state interference where politicians are cheaper to buy. For example, Chatanooga (sp?), TN offers 1Gb/s for 70$ a month. They want to expand the area of their offered internet services, but can't because of the state's rules. The FCC basically stopped states from doing that now. This will also allow Google Fiber to be built in places where there were rules against it. An example of this is Kansas City. They just got Google Fiber. Up until now AT&T offered them super low speeds (think in the area of 25mbps as the fastest available). As soon as google fiber was announced, AT&T also announced 1Gbps for 70 a month (surprise right?). In this area, the FCC has increased open market competition.

As for the actual Net neutrality bits, the FCC is basically stopping the ISPs from shitting on you. By invoking Title II, they are going to get more regulatory power. They are using that power to stop the ISPs from charging both sides or from charging you and not giving you speeds you are paying for. An example, Comcast was caught throttling your bittorrent connections (now the claim they are the only company that is legally required to be net neutral etc etc etc, but that's the actual reason). The ISPs also want to start not only charging you for different speeds, but for faster speeds to Netflix, Google, etc. You can see how this is a bad thing. You are already paying for an advertised speed that you are not getting. Now they want to charge you more for Netflix. They also want to charge Netflix to keep their speeds from being throttled.

You can clearly see the customers were getting robbed since the ISPs have basically become legal monopolies. Verizon argued successfully that they are not required to be net neutral in court because they should be allowed to exercise free speech. The court said the only out the FCC has to regulate the internet is Title II (the act that was created to regulate telephone companies).

All in all, any one that tells you this is a party issue or an over reach of the gov't is lying to you. These rules will protect consumers from the legal monopolies that ISPs have become.
 
I'm not aware of any cable providers censoring or filtering content, can you provide some examples that you feel were big enough to put all ISPs under government control?


From September to March, the average speed at which Netflix video arrived at customers' homes declined across many of America's largest Internet providers. People who subscribe to Verizon DSL, for example, saw speeds drop by 42 percent, according to Netflix, whose online "speed index" tracks video download rates for more than 60 US providers.

Very good article explaining the Netflix slowdown.

“The next Facebook, the next YouTube, future breakthroughs in medicine and education, they might not be able to afford these tolls,” says Mitch Stoltz, staff attorney for the Electronic Frontier Foundation.

The Federal Communications Commission plans to hash out its new Internet doctrine this month. Early drafts would codify the idea that broadband providers can charge companies for faster service. More than 100 technology firms including Google, Facebook, Amazon, and Netflix signed an open letter urging the FCC to uphold net neutrality. Doing otherwise, they say, “represents a grave threat to the Internet.”

This post was edited on 3/1 8:57 PM by rutgersdave

This post was edited on 3/1 8:58 PM by rutgersdave

http://www.csmonitor.com/Innovation/Tech-Culture/2014/0527/Why-are-Netflix-streaming-video-speeds-slowing-down-video
 
You cannot honestly think that a website that is crippled will do equally as one that is not.

I'm not sure you are getting my point, any website, which requires an internet "fastlane" would already be spending significant capital in order to create that website.

Your original statement was:

Right now a person from home can make a .com for the same price as the biggest company. If this bill would have come to effect you would have had to come up with a bunch of capital to make sure that your website actually had the speed to handle traffic.

Can you please clarify for me so we don't have any misunderstandings?
 
"Haven't paid attention to the issues involved. What was the impetus for the legislation and what's the result?"


The "impetus" is a desire to control contend and acquire revenue. The way to these goals was to froth up another hysteria over a contrived problem nobody has really suffered from (hence the description of net neutrality as "a solution in search of a problem".

Keep in mind people don't even know whats in the regulations because they have been kept secret. Also keep in mind past FCC power grabs have lost in court. The grabs keep coming because the motivations are political.

The original push for "net neutrality" came from a Marxist named Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor who said "At the moment, the battle over network neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies. But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control." McChesney also wrote in the Marxist journal Monthly Review that "any serious effort to reform the media system would have to necessarily be part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself."


In typical fashion, net neutrality scammers paid for research that would support their position (you can buy any study results you want today) then when the admin put net neutrality scammers in power at FCC, they did FCC studies referring to the scam studies they had already floated. The intention was to create the impression of an organic "mass movement" (like OWS).

"So the "media reform" movement paid for research that backed its views, paid activists to promote the research, saw its allies installed in the FCC and other key agencies, and paid for the FCC research that evaluated the research they had already paid for. Now they have their policy. That's quite a coup"

The "coup" of course came from the same "folks" who told you you could "keep your insurance/doctor"








The Net Neutrality Coup
 
The First Amendment was written in the 1790s. Does that mean that it shouldn't apply today because it is old? Of course not.

trek,

You quoted me and then said the above, but I wasn't disagreeing with you, in fact I'm more or less agreeing with you that the FCC can apply the provision of Title II to ISPs now that they have classified them as telecommunications providers. And in those provisions are rules around obscenities.
 
Dave,

I was looking for examples of censorship, not throttling of service.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
I posted the link for all to read and I quoted the relevant parts.

But given that the act was written in 1934 and the FCC set a precedent by labeling the ISPs as telecommunications providers, it not a far stretch to apply these sections to websites as the FCC saw fit.


(that is, there is usually only one cable internet provider in a given market).

According to this article only 28% have access to only 1 provider.

Son shines a light on the fact that 37% of Americans have only two wired broadband providers, 28% have just one, and 2% have no wired broadband ISPs at all.

I'm not aware of any cable providers censoring or filtering content, can you provide some examples that you feel were big enough to put all ISPs under government control?
Okay, so a few things to unpack.

First off, the section you are quoting is not a "relevant part". You're trying to take an element of a law that is focused on preventing an action, by an individual, to harass or send obscene content to another individual who they know to be under 18 years old. The section is on "Obscene or Harassing Telephone Calls" - essentially, you can be prosecuted for sending dick picks to a 12 year old girl. AT&T can't be prosecuted for that, nor can the maker of your cell phone, the camera app, etc. It's a section targeted at individuals specifically targeting other individuals.

Trying to shoehorn that into an "ONOZ!!1! The gub'mint is going to censor the interwebs!!!11!!!1one!" argument is specious.

Second, there are often multiple "wired" providers... but they almost exclusively operate in different technologies. In Bridgewater, for instance, we can get cable internet through Cablevision only - but can get a secondary technology (DSL) through a phone provider. You don't get to shop Cablevision's cable internet against Comcast or TimeWarner, who are selling the same product. As far as cable internet, there's one show in town. To your numbers, 67% of the US has an option of 2 wired providers or less (that includes both cable and DSL as separate providers).

Third, as to the cable providers limiting content, see Trekology's note above about Verizon. Verizon's argument is that considering them a utility violates the company's First Amendment rights by preventing Verizon from filtering content. It is actively suing the government to preserve the ability to filter content - it is claiming that taking away their right to filter content is actively damaging to them. Can't make this up (well, I guess their lawyers can... and did).

***

They took a good swipe at updating the telecom law in 1996, but that was 19 years ago at this point... needs to be revised again. Of course, obstructionism wouldn't allow anything so comprehensive to actually happen in Congress right now.
 
Originally posted by RU0517581:
"Haven't paid attention to the issues involved. What was the impetus for the legislation and what's the result?"


The "impetus" is a desire to control contend and acquire revenue. The way to these goals was to froth up another hysteria over a contrived problem nobody has really suffered from (hence the description of net neutrality as "a solution in search of a problem".

Keep in mind people don't even know whats in the regulations because they have been kept secret. Also keep in mind past FCC power grabs have lost in court. The grabs keep coming because the motivations are political.

The original push for "net neutrality" came from a Marxist named Robert McChesney, a University of Illinois communications professor who said "At the moment, the battle over network neutrality is not to completely eliminate the telephone and cable companies. But the ultimate goal is to get rid of the media capitalists in the phone and cable companies and to divest them from control." McChesney also wrote in the Marxist journal Monthly Review that "any serious effort to reform the media system would have to necessarily be part of a revolutionary program to overthrow the capitalist system itself."


In typical fashion, net neutrality scammers paid for research that would support their position (you can buy any study results you want today) then when the admin put net neutrality scammers in power at FCC, they did FCC studies referring to the scam studies they had already floated. The intention was to create the impression of an organic "mass movement" (like OWS).

"So the "media reform" movement paid for research that backed its views, paid activists to promote the research, saw its allies installed in the FCC and other key agencies, and paid for the FCC research that evaluated the research they had already paid for. Now they have their policy. That's quite a coup"

The "coup" of course came from the same "folks" who told you you could "keep your insurance/doctor"
It's amazing how clueless you are. If you came to this thread trying to sound smart... you failed.
 
The majority of ISPs in the US are not monopolies. The article I linked above states that only 28% of the US have access to only 1 WIRED provider (I would believe they have access to satellite internet providers such as HughesNet). Which means 70% of the country has access to 2 or more wired internet providers.
 
Trying to shoehorn that into an "ONOZ!!1! The gub'mint is going to censor the interwebs!!!11!!!1one!" argument is specious.

Choppin,

I have been very civilized in this thread, please don't take it down to this level.

Your original statement was that ISPs are more likely to censor the internet, I never stated that the government was going to censor the internet, I only stated that there are provisions in the act of 1934 which could be applied to ISPs now that they are classified under Title II.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
You cannot honestly think that a website that is crippled will do equally as one that is not.

I'm not sure you are getting my point, any website, which requires an internet "fastlane" would already be spending significant capital in order to create that website.

Your original statement was:

Right now a person from home can make a .com for the same price as the biggest company. If this bill would have come to effect you would have had to come up with a bunch of capital to make sure that your website actually had the speed to handle traffic.

Can you please clarify for me so we don't have any misunderstandings?
Your argument is that there is some sort of increased speed that will be invented for a large capitol site if it passed. As if they are holding back for the right time. Actually what will happen is that the current bar will be lowered and the people that will pay will get what they get now.

So let me clarify: Every action in the site that doesn't pay runs slower. It will take more time, sometimes much more time, to run flash or HTML5, video, or any multimedia, to navigate to any of your eCommerce part of your db, to run any banner ads, etc. A site that takes too much time will lose business. And not a little bit of business, alot of business. To the point that it will fail.
 
This isn't about some mom and pop trying to stRt a dot com company. This is about the govt choosing sides in the battle of content providers and infrastructure owners. Competition is good. As a consumer the best thing you can do is simply move to a town that has Fios or UVerse in addition to the local cable company.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
Your original statement was that ISPs are more likely to censor the internet, I never stated that the government was going to censor the internet, I only stated that there are provisions in the act of 1934 which could be applied to ISPs now that they are classified under Title II.
I said there's more risk of that, yes.

If the government tries to censor/filter the internet (as they have in the past), there is recourse to the US Constitution and the Supreme Court. Past efforts to do this have failed on First Amendment grounds.

If a corporation tries to censor/filter the internet (as Verizon is suing to be able to do), there is no recourse to law. There is only recourse to the End User License Agreement - which is a contract between the user and the provider. The provider can make whatever changes they like to the EULA, because the user's options are highly limited to go to a competitor. If you are looking for a cable internet provider, you will almost invariably have only one. If you are looking for a "wired" provider, the majority of people in the country have an option of just two (cable or DSL).

The provisions you point to aren't saying what you think they are. The language is specific to an individual actor and a targeted recipient, in a section dealing with harassment via a telecommunications device (sending dick picks, for example). Don't fall down that slippery slope.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
jelly,

We have no idea what the new rules mean for the internet, because we have not seen the rules as they have not been published all we have is the word of the FCC chairman and a promise to use a "light touch" when it comes to applying title II to ISPs.

The issue with me is that we put a regulatory agency in charge of the internet which currently has no issue, no ISP charged for a fast lane, no fast lanes were created and no blocks were made by Comcast, Verizon, etc to block websites or promote their services over a competitor. All we had was the possibly that this might have been done by a company in the future. So now ISPs are at the mercy of the FCC and their promises.

Do you really all have faith that the federal government and the army of lobbyist, pacs and money will not attempt to influence the FCC to create rules in the favor of the highest bidder (i.e those contributing the most to a PAC?) Has anybody here ever been involved in bidding on a defense contract or other government contract? How light of a touch do you think they will have?

To give you a clue where this is headed Amazon just hired Jay Carney the former White House spokes man.

The winners here are the big content companies. This is the funniest part of the whole charade, the net neutrality people have just given the power of the government to Amazon, Netflix and Google over Comcast and Verizon. I suspect that the content providers want to be able to stream as much data over the last mile and not pay for it.

Now here is where the Internet differs from a utility: utilities such as a gas line carry a single uniform commodity, natural gas is natural gas, water is water. The internet carries signals and data from 100,000s or millions of entities: Including text video, etc. Some require more bandwidth and some require less, each of these entities are business trying to make money and compete with each other and get to your house. So treating the ISPs like a utility is fundamentally incorrect because there is limited bandwidth that the ISPs have to manage their bandwidth allocation among the multitude of different players while serving their customers. Title II puts the FCC in the middle of all of that.
Exactly. The ISPs are required to carry the bandwidth hungry content of video suppliers without charging them for the cost.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
The majority of ISPs in the US are not monopolies. The article I linked above states that only 28% of the US have access to only 1 WIRED provider (I would believe they have access to satellite internet providers such as HughesNet). Which means 70% of the country has access to 2 or more wired internet providers.
That's great, but your link is crap. Here is an actual link that states facts...

https://apps.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DOC-329160A1.pdf














In the 25 Mbps downstream/ 3 Mbps upstream speed tier:




 20 percent of American homes do not have access to high-speed Internet Service.



 55.3 percent of homes have access to only one provider.



 Taken together, nearly 75 percent of homes have no choice in providers.
 
seels,

I'm really not understanding what you are saying

Your first sentence in your first statement was:

Right now a person from home can make a .com for the same price as the biggest company.

This is a true statement. But if a person sitting at home wanted to build a large eCommerce web site it would cost millions of dollars.

Your second sentence stated:

If this bill would have come to effect you would have had to come up with a bunch of capital to make sure that your website actually had the speed to handle traffic.

What are you referring to by "this bill"? I assumed that your were talking about the FCC ruling, but I may be wrong, so can you please clarify the above statement.


Your argument is that there is some sort of increased speed that will be invented for a large capitol site if it passed.

No my argument is that it takes a lot of money to build a large eCommerce site, millions of dollars, in software development and in hardware costs, before, you even pay for a "fastlane" from an ISP, IF, an ISP was charging for a fastlane, which neither comcast, nor Verizon, nor Time Warner has yet created.

And to follow on the hypothetical line I would doubt that Comcast, Verizon, or Time Warner would make the cost of a fast lane so prohibitive that the developer of our new eCommerce site, having already spent millions on hardware and software costs, could not pay for the fast lane.
 
"It's amazing how clueless you are. If you came to this thread trying to sound smart... you failed."

Nope - just dropping some well known facts - the validity of which is generally confirmed by reactions of hostility by reality deniers who are left with no ammo aside from trivial, drive-by insults. It only burns for a little while.
 
Originally posted by RUScrew85:

Exactly. The ISPs are required to carry the bandwidth hungry content of video suppliers without charging them for the cost.
I pay my ISP for the bandwidth. Why should they be able to charge the other end a second time for the same bandwidth?

By the way, content services pay for their bandwidth. Their provider has peering agreements in place to pay for the bandwidth exchange to reach end user ISPs. The bandwidth has already been paid for, the ISPs just want to be paid twice for it.
 
you link essentially states the same facts as my link you are choosing to focus on 25 Mbps downstream numbers.
 
@ RU0517581: Are you...are you seriously attempting to say that Net Neutrality is communism? What is this, the red scare? The 1950s? McCarthyism? By god, look at the facts, not the conspiracy.

Also, I just LOVE it when people assume that companies, because they're "capitalist", are so benevolent, while the government is "Big Brother" and the worst thing ever. Fun fact: Neither necessarily has your best interest at heart. Furthermore, we aren't close to the best infrastructure in the world. We're 26th or so out of 198, with country 198 having 1.18 Mbps download while we have 33.33 Mbps download. Sounds good right? Except to crack the top five, we'd have to almost double our speeds to 64.29...in order to be faster than Romania. That's right. Romania. Not that I'm saying anything bad about Romania. But for a country that seems to constantly pound its own chest about being the best, we're still losing out to Romania. To be the fastest in the world, we'd need to be at 111.63 Mbps, beating out Singapore. Now, I understand that we're not nearly as small as these countries, so getting that kind of average speed is unlikely, but we have the technology to have cable at over 1 Gbps. Doesn't seem like these companies are working too hard at innovation.

http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

Capitalism doesn't mean striving to provide the best at all times. Capitalism means making as much money as possible, even if that means your customers get crushed, because hey, if you have almost no competition, what can they do?


MaximumPC has a pretty good article on this.

http://www.maximumpc.com/fcc_tom_wheeler_net_neutrality_verizon_2015

Some highlights:

"No Blocking: broadband providers may not block access to legal content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices.
No Throttling: broadband providers may not impair or degrade lawful Internet traffic on the basis of content, applications, services, or non-harmful devices.
No Paid Prioritization: broadband providers may not favor some lawful Internet traffic over other lawful traffic in exchange for consideration or any kind-in other words, no "fast lanes." This rule also bans ISPs from prioritizing content and services of their affiliates."

"Broadband service will remain exempt from state and local taxation under the Internet Tax Freedom Act. This law, recently renewed by Congress and signed by the President, bans state and local taxation on Internet access regardless of its FCC regulatory classification. "

"

This is amusing because Verizon previously forced its hand through the FCC by saying it is a common carrier under Title II Regulations. In fact, it's not recent at all. According to an In a report by The Verge, Verizon's own documents say:

"As noted, Verizon NJ has been upgrading substantial portions of its telecommunications network with FTTP technology as a common carrier pursuant to Title II of the Communications Act of 1934..."

Straight from the horse's mouth. Talk about hypocrisy.

Verizon uses Title II to gain common carrier benefits, such as regulated lower prices, for when it wants to push out infrastructure and dip its hands into tax dollars for the build-outs, but shams Title II for when it wants to throttle broadband speeds so that it can siphon money from content providers--all after the Verizon customer has already paid for the access.

How exactly can Verizon claim Title II? Easy: Verizon also has a landline telephone business. Telephone carriers are classified and regulated under Title II of the communications Act. This regulation controls costs, and allows telephone carriers to use backbones of other utilities, to ease the build-out of networks by piggybacking on existing infrastructure. Since landline businesses are dying, Verizon and others keep this part of its business around as a very powerful tool.

So, Verizon jumps back and forth on Title II classification, depending on whether or not it perceives an advantage, and even outright classifies itself under Title II. Yet today it is publicly trashing Title II as an antiquated regulation from the 1930s."
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
you link essentially states the same facts as my link you are choosing to focus on 25 Mbps downstream numbers.
25MBpS is the definition of broadband internet. If you have 1 or none you are in the 75%. please don't go around stating 70% of people have access to multiple. It is false.
 
I[/B] pay my ISP for the bandwidth. Why should they be able to charge the other end a second time for the same bandwidth?

Because they built the networks and they own the networks, it's their business they can do what they want with it. And, I think this is part of the fundamental issue between both sides of this debate.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
I[/B] pay my ISP for the bandwidth. Why should they be able to charge the other end a second time for the same bandwidth?

Because they built the networks and they own the networks, it's their business they can do what they want with it. And, I think this is part of the fundamental issue between both sides of this debate.
You clearly don't understand the issue. We the taxpayers have given over 200 Billion dollars to build out these networks (forget the fact that it was to provide every citizen with 45MBpS which these companies never provided. The money just disappeared). So NO, they did not build them or at least not by themselves.

Once we get around that, there is the basic idea of what false advertising is. If I am paying for 50MBpS, I should get that speed. If I am not getting that on certain websites, then I am not getting 50MBpS. How do you justify the legality of that? Because that is legal today.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
seels,

I'm really not understanding what you are saying

Your first sentence in your first statement was:

Right now a person from home can make a .com for the same price as the biggest company.

This is a true statement. But if a person sitting at home wanted to build a large eCommerce web site it would cost millions of dollars.

Your second sentence stated:

If this bill would have come to effect you would have had to come up with a bunch of capital to make sure that your website actually had the speed to handle traffic.

What are you referring to by "this bill"? I assumed that your were talking about the FCC ruling, but I may be wrong, so can you please clarify the above statement.


Your argument is that there is some sort of increased speed that will be invented for a large capitol site if it passed.

No my argument is that it takes a lot of money to build a large eCommerce site, millions of dollars, in software development and in hardware costs, before, you even pay for a "fastlane" from an ISP, IF, an ISP was charging for a fastlane, which neither comcast, nor Verizon, nor Time Warner has yet created.

And to follow on the hypothetical line I would doubt that Comcast, Verizon, or Time Warner would make the cost of a fast lane so prohibitive that the developer of our new eCommerce site, having already spent millions on hardware and software costs, could not pay for the fast lane.
It does not cost millions of dollars to build a successful eCommerce site if you know what you are doing. Trust me I know what I am talking about I have experience in this. I was going to give you a full paragraph of my background but decided it was not important to this conversation.

On the second part, yes I was talking about the FCC ruling.

Robert, this seems to be an argument that we will be on opposite sides on and neither will convince each other who is right. Lets just end it at we agree to disagree.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
I never stated that 70% of people had access to 25MBpS broadband connections, I made that statement that 70% of people have access to 2 or more providers providing WIRED connections (including DSL)

You do realize that FCC only changed the definition of broadband from 4MBpS to 25MBpS at the beginning of 2015.
Yes. It's called progress. I don't see how that changes any of the facts.
 
"@ RU0517581: Are you...are you seriously attempting to say that Net Neutrality is communism? What is this, the red scare? The 1950s? McCarthyism? By god, look at the facts, not the conspiracy."


No conspiracy needed - the facts are apparent and traceable. Its also in the record that the FCC power grab was turned back in court twice. Yet the ram throughs continue in "an unusual, secretive effort inside the White House . . . acting as a parallel version of the FCC itself."

These power gabs are no surprise considering you have an administration that's been found in contempt of court (over Gulf drilling ban), taken actions found unanimously unconstitutional in court a dozen times, been recently told its immigration takeover was lawless (they are ignoring court order right now) while also going around congress to help Iran get the bomb (a reason Saudis cut ties with US to align with China). Its clear a lot of people dismissing observable machinations as groundless conspiracies are actually the most gullible of all






This post was edited on 3/1 10:49 PM by RU0517581

WSJ Obamanet
 
It does not cost millions of dollars to build a successful eCommerce site if you know what you are doing. Trust me I know what I am talking about I have experience in this. I was going to give you a full paragraph of my background but decided it was not important to this conversation.

That depends on the size of the site the number of customers you hope to service the number of feature you want to put into the site, security, etc. I'm assuming you are talking about national or even international sites serving 100,000 of transactions a day, with all of the proper security and 99.9% uptime.

I also have experience in this area for over 20 years, I have even sold the development and directly estimated the costs.

P.S. I hope you weren't talking about outsourcing to India the development of this fictional site? You think you will save money but you won't.
 
Originally posted by RobertG:
It does not cost millions of dollars to build a successful eCommerce site if you know what you are doing. Trust me I know what I am talking about I have experience in this. I was going to give you a full paragraph of my background but decided it was not important to this conversation.

That depends on the size of the site the number of customers you hope to service the number of feature you want to put into the site, security, etc. I'm assuming you are talking about national or even international sites serving 100,000 of transactions a day, with all of the proper security and 99.9% uptime.

I also have experience in this area for over 20 years, I have even sold the development and directly estimated the costs.

P.S. I hope you weren't talking about outsourcing to India the development of this fictional site? You think you will save money but you won't.
hehe now that is one thing we will agree on. I will never go to India or other counties (Pakistan was another place were the people I worked with went to) for cheap IT labor. It never works out right.
 
Electronic Frontier Foundation on Net NeutralityB

https://www.eff.org/issues/net-neutrality

Consult that source on all things net neutrality.

Bottom line is that "net neutrality" is thrown around in all sorts of ways.. imho, in order to confuse the issue so opponents of true net neutrality will be able to say they provide NN while actually working against this. Among this group are many politicians who deal with cable companies and content providers for campaign monies and positive media attention.

- cable companies want you to pay them for access to content
- content companies want cable companies (and advertisers) to pay them to provide content.. and they do not want competition from newbie media companies who can crank out content cheaply over the net.

NN basically says that it doesn't matter WHO you are, what content you want to provide.. broadband customers should be able to view your content just as easily as that of any big time player (in terms of performance of the "pipe".. you still have to have the servers and tech and so on to stream).

cable companies and content providers HATE this. they want to pick winners and losers as to who gets to stream content to their customers at good speed.

only organizations like EFF are on the side of the little guys.. everyone else is for big business in this thing.. including your politicians
This post was edited on 3/1 11:03 PM by GoodOl'Rutgers
 
Originally posted by RU0517581:
"@ RU0517581: Are you...are you seriously attempting to say that Net Neutrality is communism? What is this, the red scare? The 1950s? McCarthyism? By god, look at the facts, not the conspiracy."


No conspiracy needed - the facts are apparent and traceable. Its also in the record that the FCC power grab was turned back in court twice. Yet the ram throughs continue in "an unusual, secretive effort inside the White House . . . acting as a parallel version of the FCC itself."

These power gabs are no surprise considering you have an administration that's been found in contempt of court (over Gulf drilling ban), taken actions found unanimously unconstitutional in court a dozen times, been recently told its immigration takeover was lawless (they are ignoring court order right now) while also going around congress to help Iran get the bomb (a reason Saudis cut ties with US to align with China). Its clear a lot of people dismissing observable machinations as groundless conspiracies are actually the most gullible of all







This post was edited on 3/1 10:49 PM by RU0517581
I'd like to first point out that you're original article is from 2010, it's references are rather dated, and this idea of " The losers are likely to be consumers who will see innovation and investment chilled by regulations that treat the Internet like a public utility." Yeah...no. We are falling farther and farther behind, these companies need a kick in the pants to get them to actually do something right. In many places they are for all intents and purposes, a monopoly. That's a bad thing.

"There's little evidence the public is demanding these rules, which purport to stop the non-problem of phone and cable companies blocking access to websites and interfering with Internet traffic. " No longer a non problem. If you think it's a non-problem, you're not paying attention. This is why citing an article from four years ago (a very long time with the current pace of news and technology) isn't great.

How about this: You give me a better way to solve the monopolistic and money grabbing practices which harm the end user (us). I will then wholeheartedly support your better way.

178bf686e4.jpg
 
We all know how devoted Verizon and AT&T are to the interests of their users....look how they treated our personal information. (Citizen 4) And they are so forthright about what they do and what they want. I trust them...I do.
 
I didn't see this thread when it happened because I was busy working on a summary of what the FCC did on Thursday.

First, as someone who works in the area, I'm pretty impressed by the level of information on this thread.

A few additional thoughts, though:

1. The provision about indecent material that's been discussed pretty much has been used only (and extremely rarely) to allow telephone companies to stop providing service to companies or people who've been convicted of crimes related to that section. As someone noted, it's generally only used to prosecute harassment. The Supreme Court decisions on obscenity, including the one on the Communications Decency Act after it was passed in 1996, have greatly limited the range of what would be covered by that provision.

2. I saw a reference to Commissioner Pai's talking point about not having seen the rules. To be clear, the standard FCC operating procedure for decades has been not to release the final text of the rules until the order itself comes out - even Pai has voted for dozens of orders without the public seeing the rules. Tom Wheeler, the Chairman of the FCC, released an outline of the rules about three weeks before the decision, and that's much more than you usually get. Everyone in the business expects the rules to follow the outline pretty closely.

3. Verizon did appeal the original rules, and everybody in the industry hates them for it. Everyone but Verizon had signed off on the original rules, and was willing to live with them. (And the story in the industry is that Verizon was mad because the FCC paid more attention to AT&T than to Verizon.)

4. The biggest difference between the old rules and the new rules is that the new rules will fully cover wireless. The old rules had a lot of exceptions for wireless Internet access.

By the way, don't expect the rules to go into effect until May or even June. If a court stays the rules, it could be a lot longer.
 
Originally posted by Trekology:



Originally posted by RUScrew85:

Exactly. The ISPs are required to carry the bandwidth hungry content of video suppliers without charging them for the cost.
I pay my ISP for the bandwidth. Why should they be able to charge the other end a second time for the same bandwidth?

By the way, content services pay for their bandwidth. Their provider has peering agreements in place to pay for the bandwidth exchange to reach end user ISPs. The bandwidth has already been paid for, the ISPs just want to be paid twice for it.
I believe the situation refers to backhaul bandwidth - the connection between your ISP servers and the video streamers. That costs money. Most times connections between, for example, two ISPs generate the same basic volume so there's a wash on the costs. With situations like Netflix, they overwhelm the two way peering relationship with so much one way volume. This pisses off ISPs because they have to build up their networks to handle the video volume to no benefit to themselves - PLUS (and I'm not defending this it's just fact) that video streaming is in direct competition with the ISP's video streaming offer AND the ISPs (at least in the case of Verizon and the cable companies) are the ones who paid to lay the cable or fiber. So the ISP gets pissed having to pay for video streaming bandwith that runs through their network in competition with their service over wires they put up. Seems to me they kinda have a point. That is one reason that tiered data levels was proposed. Make Netflix and Amazon pay a bit more for the data streaming bandwidth they use.

Also, video streaming bandwidth is the most expensive kind for the volume as there can be much if any latency or the video stream breaks up and is useless.

Either way - bitching about it here won't change anything and it's going to break down to an argument between the I want stuff for free side and the folks who understand the costs. I don't have a dog in that fight so have fun guys.

If your interested there's a web guy who used to run and ISP who knows the issues inside and out - Denninger at market-ticker.denninger.net. He's where I got my info and he's actually done all of this.

This post was edited on 3/2 8:40 AM by RUScrew85
 
Originally posted by seels2662:

Originally posted by RobertG:
It does not cost millions of dollars to build a successful eCommerce site if you know what you are doing. Trust me I know what I am talking about I have experience in this. I was going to give you a full paragraph of my background but decided it was not important to this conversation.

That depends on the size of the site the number of customers you hope to service the number of feature you want to put into the site, security, etc. I'm assuming you are talking about national or even international sites serving 100,000 of transactions a day, with all of the proper security and 99.9% uptime.

I also have experience in this area for over 20 years, I have even sold the development and directly estimated the costs.

P.S. I hope you weren't talking about outsourcing to India the development of this fictional site? You think you will save money but you won't.
hehe now that is one thing we will agree on. I will never go to India or other counties (Pakistan was another place were the people I worked with went to) for cheap IT labor. It never works out right.
Amen.
 
Originally posted by RUScrew85
Originally posted by Trekology:



Originally posted by RUScrew85:

Exactly. The ISPs are required to carry the bandwidth hungry content of video suppliers without charging them for the cost.
I pay my ISP for the bandwidth. Why should they be able to charge the other end a second time for the same bandwidth?

By the way, content services pay for their bandwidth. Their provider has peering agreements in place to pay for the bandwidth exchange to reach end user ISPs. The bandwidth has already been paid for, the ISPs just want to be paid twice for it.
I believe the situation refers to backhaul bandwidth - the connection between your ISP servers and the video streamers. That costs money. Most times connections between, for example, two ISPs generate the same basic volume so there's a wash on the costs. With situations like Netflix, they overwhelm the two way peering relationship with so much one way volume. This pisses off ISPs because they have to build up their networks to handle the video volume to no benefit to themselves - PLUS (and I'm not defending this it's just fact) that video streaming is in direct competition with the ISP's video streaming offer AND the ISPs (at least in the case of Verizon and the cable companies) are the ones who paid to lay the cable or fiber. So the ISP gets pissed having to pay for video streaming bandwith that runs through their network in competition with their service over wires they put up. Seems to me they kinda have a point. That is one reason that tiered data levels was proposed. Make Netflix and Amazon pay a bit more for the data streaming bandwidth they use.

Also, video streaming bandwidth is the most expensive kind for the volume as there can be much if any latency or the video stream breaks up and is useless.

Either way - bitching about it here won't change anything and it's going to break down to an argument between the I want stuff for free side and the folks who understand the costs. I don't have a dog in that fight so have fun guys.

If your interested there's a web guy who used to run and ISP who knows the issues inside and out - Denninger at market-ticker.denninger.net. He's where I got my info and he's actually done all of this.

This post was edited on 3/2 8:40 AM by RUScrew85
It's not so simple as this. There is not only one level of ISP. So Netflix's ISP doesn't always interact directly with your ISP. There are ISPs out there that simply direct traffic from ISP to another. Anyway, these Tier 1 ISPs charge your local ISP for the upstream connection. So Netflix is NOT getting away with paying less. They are paying Level 3 who has to pay other ISPs for the content that they send upstream.
 
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