Eddie Jordan and KenPom
- Thread starter RutgersYay
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Do not disagree about the assistants regarding their coaching ability . However, Shoes has landed a lot of the kids, so have to give him props for that coup! Van had some New York contacts but not sure where he has made a big difference. Eddie's staff is weak, do not communicate well enough with Eddie, nor the players at times. Again , who the hell wants to come here ? Mike for a stretch there was getting better and more consistent scoring 13-15 a game in early Big 10 action. The injury to his wrist and his having to guard out of position has hurt his confidence, not that he isn't getting good coaching. DJ has shown flashes like last game against Penn State. O' Koren's works with the bigs and I am pretty sure he doesn't teach him to just drive out of control. DJ has to slow down , drive and make layups, try to not try too hard. I think he will be better next year.
Rankings are tough, because some schools have more kids than others - but here's a look at some of the others from that class that have played at least 12 min/game and a majority of their games:
1. OSU: Lyle (10.3 pts, 4.0 rbs, 4.3 ast, 28.7 min), Giddens (3.8 pts, 3.8 rbs, 17.8 min)
2. Illinois: Coleman-Lands (9.6 pts, 1.8 rbs, .404 3P%, 24.6 min)
3. MSU: Davis (7.6 pts, 5.6 rbs, 18.4 min), McQuaid (3.9 pts, .407 3P%, 2.0 ast, 16.9 min)
4. Indiana: Bryant (11.6 pts, 5.5 rbs, 22.1 min), Anunoby (4.4 pts, 2.6 rbs, 12.1 min)
5. Nebraska: Watson (8.8 pts, 1.9 rbs, 2.5 ast, 24.4 min), McVeigh (5.8 pts, 2.9 rbs, 18.2 min), Jacobson (4.9 pts, 4.1 rbs, 17.8 min)
6. Purdue: Swanigan (9.9 pts, 8.5 pts, 25.9 min)
7. PA St: Reaves (5.8 pts, 3.6 rbs, 1.8 ast, 22.5 min)
8. Maryland: Stone (12.9 pts, 5.4 rbs, 22.4 min)
9. Rutgers: Sanders (16.2 pts, 3.2 rbs, 4.1 ast, 33.6 min), Laurent (7.7 pts, 5.1 rbs, 23.1 min)
10. Wisconsin: Iverson (2.6 pts, 2.0 rbs, 13.5 min)
11. Minnesota: Murphy (11.1 pts, 7.8 rbs, 24.7 min), Dorsey (6.6 pts, 2.2 rbs, 18.4 min)
12. Northwestern: Falzon (8.6 pts, 3.6 rbs, 24.4 min), Pardon (7.4 pts, 4.7 rbs, 18.3 min)
13. Iowa: No one of note.
14. Michigan: No one of note.
Most of those listed are complementary pieces to their teams, and not looked at to be the primary scorer.
Thanks for the roundup! I missed Bryant and Anunoby, real players. Murphy from Minnesota is really a low post presence, Coleman -Lands killed us from 3 and the Nebraska trio are all steady and look to be contributors. Still like Corey and Jon in that group. Corey with Bryant, Stone or Murphy would average 10 assists per game.Let's hope they do not have a sophomore slump! Lol!!
I posted this in the other thread that got deleted, but didn't want it to get completely lost.
You'd mentioned Crean a few times, and he's a really bad example of what you're trying to illustrate. While Crean was at Marquette, he proved that he was a very good collegiate defensive coach. Over his 9 years there, his teams averaged in the Top 50 in points allowed per game... and if you remove one outlier season where they ranked over 150, the other 8 years he averaged in the Top 35.
When he took over at Indiana, he was almost literally starting from scratch. Only two players returned from the prior year, and just one was on scholarship. Sampson had been fired and Indiana had put itself under recruiting restrictions as self-imposed sanctions. In his fourth year, when Crean was able to recruit without sanctions, he brought in the #6 class in the country and Indiana went back to the type of Top 50 defense he had been known for at Marquette.
He didn't "change his stripes" - if you look at his history, he's always been a strong, defensive-minded coach, whose teams routinely ranked in the top 10-25% nationally in points allowed per game.
Not true , with his Indiana teams. He has been playing very fast, the last 2 years. Just look at what his team gave up early in the year, to when he made the switch to demand defense, despite being one of the highest scoring teams in the nation , they were giving up a lot defensively. Look at what happened after our game and what his team has given up in the Big 10 schedule.
More importantly, and things that don't always show up in stats, just watching the team in Maui and they hardly defended. I cannot say they defended us very well. If we do not miss 10 layups we win and score 90. I watch all the teams I can on Big 10 network, and when they were 2-0 , I started watching them and they ratcheted up the defense. Choppin ,statistics do not always tell a story , especially on defense, that deflections, charges, are not reflected in your review. The averages they gave up decreased in the Big 10, including the 47 they gave up to Illinois on the road last night, but from the eye test, Crean realized despite how good they were on offense, with their multiple 3 point shooters, a lock down defense is what was needed to make his team to go from a decent team to a really good team that is dangerous in March. He might have had teams at Marquette that defended, but that was a function of the Big East , a defensive, bruising league. His MO at Indiana was highest scoring offense, pushing the ball up and launching their first open shot. Most of the elite teams did not consider them a serious threat because they were not committed to defense which can happen when you are one of the highest scoring teams. Crean changed his stripes and the Indiana team that he has coached there earlier this season and it has made them a serious contender, presently leading the Big 10.
I wish we could ask him directly, or maybe their team blogger has asked him what does he attribute his success this year , and I am confident he will give you my answer.
Not true? Crean is a proven college coach, who has on several occasions had teams finish in the Top 25 in points allowed per game. That's a fact - it's not in dispute.
He has defensive chops - he's coached defensive teams - he has proven success in this area.
If he chooses to "turn up the heat" on defense during a game or at certain points during the season, he can - because he's had success coaching defense before, and knows what it takes in practice to get that done. You talk about the last two years at Indiana (174th and 177th nationally in points allowed), but ignore the two years before that (6th and 21st nationally in points allowed).
If you asked him directly, he's not going to say "Well, I was never very good at coaching defense and never focused on it with my teams... but suddenly the light bulb went on this year and I realized that I had to actually play defense to win games". That's fantasy.
In 2012-13, Crean had Indiana allowing just 62.1 points per game, which was good for 6th best in the country and 4th best in the Big Ten... while they were also 5th nationally in scoring and 1st in the Big Ten. This isn't a guy who doesn't know how to coach defense, who suddenly decided this season he had to start doing it.
You're making up a narrative that isn't there.
Eddie has never shown himself to be able to coach defense, and there's nothing to support that he'll suddenly figure it out over one offseason.
He has defensive chops - he's coached defensive teams - he has proven success in this area.
If he chooses to "turn up the heat" on defense during a game or at certain points during the season, he can - because he's had success coaching defense before, and knows what it takes in practice to get that done. You talk about the last two years at Indiana (174th and 177th nationally in points allowed), but ignore the two years before that (6th and 21st nationally in points allowed).
If you asked him directly, he's not going to say "Well, I was never very good at coaching defense and never focused on it with my teams... but suddenly the light bulb went on this year and I realized that I had to actually play defense to win games". That's fantasy.
In 2012-13, Crean had Indiana allowing just 62.1 points per game, which was good for 6th best in the country and 4th best in the Big Ten... while they were also 5th nationally in scoring and 1st in the Big Ten. This isn't a guy who doesn't know how to coach defense, who suddenly decided this season he had to start doing it.
You're making up a narrative that isn't there.
Eddie has never shown himself to be able to coach defense, and there's nothing to support that he'll suddenly figure it out over one offseason.
He wasn't running up the floor in 2012-2013, like he has the last 2 years, which explains the 62.1 points per game in those years. Your own stats say he was174 and 177 nationally in points allowed the last 2 years. That proves my point . He was heading down that road again this year, until he decided he was not going to go far without the emphasis on defense.
I am not saying Crean did not know how to play defense, but I am saying he thought he could out score teams and win and he was wrong and changed and has become a dangerous team. That is my analogy to Eddie. Eddie has wrongly believed he could out execute and out score teams offensively to win , like the NBA , but he didn't have the 3 point shooters, and low post scorers to do so. Crean has both 3 point scorers and low post scorers and realized that was not enough to win and win consistently. You are stating Eddie knows nothing about defense , and I doubt that, but I agree he has never thought it was important as offense . He has to change his philosophy or he will never win in college.
I'm saying that a leopard doesn't change his spots. Crean proved himself as a successful defensive coach in the past, and he's emphasizing that again. He's shown over his career that he can both score points and stop teams from scoring points.
Three years ago, Indiana was scoring more points than all but 4 teams in the country.... while holding teams to fewer points than all but 5 teams in the country. Crean was outscoring teams AND holding them under their averages. After that season, they took a beating in roster losses - Watford and Hulls to graduation, Oladipo and Zeller to the NBA - and he started over. He's now in a place where he has the horses to start cranking the defensive intensity back up.
EJ has never shown that he can field a top rated defense. He never did it as a HC in the NBA, and he hasn't done it here at Rutgers. And he has no collegiate HC experience to draw on. The NBA emphasizes man defense and zone defense isn't common (largely because of the league's defensive 3 second violation). There is nothing indicating he can simply turn on that switch.
Whereas if you even glance passingly at Crean's history, you can see that he has a defensive toolkit he can bring out whenever he wants to.
Stop ignoring what Crean has done over these last 2 years, and especially after what he did after playing us . Again, I am not saying Crean cannot coach defense , all coaches can, but I am saying he consciously changed his team's focus. I am not just talking about his athletes but I am talking about guys like Hartman and Zietzloft that are not athletic . Let me get Tom on the phone now to hash this out!!!!!
It is over your head you would 't understand that is pretty obvious
no its flat out pointless to bring up someone like Crean and say Eddie is going to be like him. There is nothing in common between the two, from college coaching success, to recruiting, from program building, to Xs and Os.
Let me see if your brain can follow along. Eddie guessed and wrongly believed that his offense and his execution will outscore teams and does not focus enough on defense. Throw out this year for a second. That is his MO , but it has failed because he doesn't have enough scorers , 3 point shooters or a low post scorer. That is what he was used to in the NBA.
Crean has one of the highest scoring teams in the country this year and the last few. He also has been emphasizing offense and out scoring teams. But guess what he lost to teams like Wake Forest and UNLV in Maui and only beat St. John's by 10 giving up 73 points( as an aside teams you say suck), and he continued to get waxed by Duke giving up 94, and despite beating Notre Dame and Rutgers in December by 7 each, he gave up 73 and 72.
Now look what he did in January in his 6 straight wins , 79-69 Nebraska, 59-58 Wisconsin,85-60 Ohio State, 70-63 Minnesota, 103-69 Illinois and 89 -57 Nortwestern . He averaged 80.8 and only gave up 62.6 . He wasn't doing that earlier on the year and unlike you , I actually watched those games and his defense came to play every night. The analysts repeated it over and over.
So my comparison with Eddie is that Eddie , who has emphasized offense over defense, has to emphasize defense again, just like Crean did when he realized he wasn't going to just outscore teams. I don't expect your brain to process that thought but don't let facts get in your way.
they have nothing in common, its like just picking two random coaches and making some comparison
Eddie does not stress defense,he hasn't in 3 years, the best way to get an overmatched team to compete is to play defense, Rice did it, Eddie has 3 years here and we haven't seen any
Eddie does not stress defense,he hasn't in 3 years, the best way to get an overmatched team to compete is to play defense, Rice did it, Eddie has 3 years here and we haven't seen any
Statisticly the offensive numbers are worse than defense....which is even more of a negative on Eddie. 316th in offensive efficiency AND 230th defense. In B1G we are #14 in both offense and defense.
In B1G games the average for all games is 1.048 points per possession.
offensively we have scored .899 or .149 below average
defensively we have given up 1.195 or .147 above average
I'd love to see the offensive numbers the 1st 10 minutes of the game vs. the last 30 of the game. I swear we run our offense to start every game and then deviate.
The most damaging stat to me about Eddie. In B1G play tempo (possessions per game/adjusted for OT) numbers of the 14 teams...66.4 67.2 68.2 66.5 66.6 65.2 62.9 67.3 67.7 63.8 67.6 68.4 65.8 71.1.
Guess which one is us??? A hint it is not 62.9 that is Wisconsin.
In B1G games the average for all games is 1.048 points per possession.
offensively we have scored .899 or .149 below average
defensively we have given up 1.195 or .147 above average
I'd love to see the offensive numbers the 1st 10 minutes of the game vs. the last 30 of the game. I swear we run our offense to start every game and then deviate.
The most damaging stat to me about Eddie. In B1G play tempo (possessions per game/adjusted for OT) numbers of the 14 teams...66.4 67.2 68.2 66.5 66.6 65.2 62.9 67.3 67.7 63.8 67.6 68.4 65.8 71.1.
Guess which one is us??? A hint it is not 62.9 that is Wisconsin.
I've made the statement, that you've agreed with, that EJ has never been a successful defensive coach. It's never been his style - either in the NBA or in the NCAA.
I've argued that he's not going to suddenly "get it" and start coaching a tough, aggressive defense next year.
You've argued that he can change his focus, and have used Crean as an example.
That comparison makes no sense. None. Zero. You need to find another example.
Crean has previously been a successful defensive coach in the NCAA - that's in his coaching profile. Saying that a coach who previously had very strong defenses, who as recently as three years ago had one of the best defenses in the country, decided to increase the defensive pressure of his team this season HAS NO BEARING on whether Eddie Jordan can suddenly learn to coach defense.
In Crean's case, he always knew how to coach good defense at the NCAA level, and had shown that multiple times in the past, across three conferences and two teams, and as recently as just three years ago. Being able to take a team that struggled with defense the last two years and at the start of this year and improve their defensive performance is in no way out of character, or outside expectations - given his background.
In EJ's case, he's never shown that he's been able to coach a top defense (at the NBA or NCAA level). To expect him to take a team that has struggled with defense the last two years and all of this year, and suddenly turn them into a strong defense is in complete contrast to everything we've ever seen from him as a coach.
There is no comparison between the two.
Do you really think Eddie cannot coach defense? Or any coach for that matter? A coach has his identity and Eddie's was identified at the Nets, when he was Byron Scott's assistant and ran the Princeton offense with one of the best point guards of all time.,Pete Carrill, the ex Princeton coach held Eddie in high regard and he could coach. Do you think the Nets teams did not play defense when they were making their runs? They had length and the ability to play it. Eddie is recruiting more length and with a full roster he should be able to ratchet up the defense. Since you say he has not done it, you really feel he is incapable of playing defense with a full roster and guys not playing out of position? Eddie probably has forgotten more about defense than you know, but to say he cannot emphasize and focus on it again, for a coach is patently absurd!!
You won't believe me but Eddie ran the offense and one of the other assistants ran the defense. I think Eddie is a terrible defensive coach. Every article, statistic and the eye test points to that.
But you said as a coach, he cannot.. Are you changing what you post? Or do you believe there has not been an emphasis on defense,and with this roster it's almost impossible,,and that he better focus, emphasize and demand it next year?
Anyone can coach defense. I can coach defense. Give me the team, and I can coach defense. We'll suck, but that doesn't mean I didn't coach it.
I don't think Eddie has the chops to coach defense at this level. He didn't coach it well in the NBA, and that was almost entirely man-to-man technique - not the myriad zone defenses utilized at the college level to mask (and take advantage of) individual player deficiencies. Also, the guys he coached in the NBA were taught defense in college - and he was drawing on that skillset in the NBA (not well, but still drawing on it). The guys he coaches in college were largely not taught much about the principles of college defense while in high school - they are starting fresh, and need to be taught fundamentals all the way up through advanced concepts.
He's shown, time and again, that defense is not his strength. He's not suddenly going to become a top-half-of the Big Ten (which is like top 20% of the country) defensive coach, when he's it's never been a skill set he's shown or exercised before.
He hasn't surrounded himself with guys that have that skill set, either. O'Koren is an NBA guy with no NCAA coaching experience. Vetrone has some NCAA experience... but at a lower conference program, and not much of it. Macon has the most NCAA experience, but again at lower conference programs and more in a recruiting/scouting/scheduling capacity. Bhatia actually has the most NCAA defensive cred... and it's not much, and again at a lower conference school.
Where's the help? Where's the guy who came from a proven NCAA coaching tree? Where's the guy who's been on the inside of a successful major-conference NCAA program and knows what needs to be done to succeed at this level? These are all EJ's hand-picked guys... and none are defensive gurus or guys with any sort of high level NCAA background.
Not only has EJ shown that he's not a top tier defensive coach (nor will he become one by throwing a coin down a wishing well), but he also hasn't surrounded himself with top tier defensive coaches to shore up his weak points.
If we're going to be stuck with him next year, he needs to clean house on his staff and bring in strong assistants with defensive and skill development backgrounds, who have had experience at successful NCAA programs. I just don't see that happening - and I don't see that kind of assistant wanting to come here to work for EJ.
I don't think Eddie has the chops to coach defense at this level. He didn't coach it well in the NBA, and that was almost entirely man-to-man technique - not the myriad zone defenses utilized at the college level to mask (and take advantage of) individual player deficiencies. Also, the guys he coached in the NBA were taught defense in college - and he was drawing on that skillset in the NBA (not well, but still drawing on it). The guys he coaches in college were largely not taught much about the principles of college defense while in high school - they are starting fresh, and need to be taught fundamentals all the way up through advanced concepts.
He's shown, time and again, that defense is not his strength. He's not suddenly going to become a top-half-of the Big Ten (which is like top 20% of the country) defensive coach, when he's it's never been a skill set he's shown or exercised before.
He hasn't surrounded himself with guys that have that skill set, either. O'Koren is an NBA guy with no NCAA coaching experience. Vetrone has some NCAA experience... but at a lower conference program, and not much of it. Macon has the most NCAA experience, but again at lower conference programs and more in a recruiting/scouting/scheduling capacity. Bhatia actually has the most NCAA defensive cred... and it's not much, and again at a lower conference school.
Where's the help? Where's the guy who came from a proven NCAA coaching tree? Where's the guy who's been on the inside of a successful major-conference NCAA program and knows what needs to be done to succeed at this level? These are all EJ's hand-picked guys... and none are defensive gurus or guys with any sort of high level NCAA background.
Not only has EJ shown that he's not a top tier defensive coach (nor will he become one by throwing a coin down a wishing well), but he also hasn't surrounded himself with top tier defensive coaches to shore up his weak points.
If we're going to be stuck with him next year, he needs to clean house on his staff and bring in strong assistants with defensive and skill development backgrounds, who have had experience at successful NCAA programs. I just don't see that happening - and I don't see that kind of assistant wanting to come here to work for EJ.
I do not disagree with you at all regarding a defensive guru. He has to bring in a top defensive assistant coach. We spoke in earlier threads about the deficiencies of the assistants and Eddie picked them and doesn't appear to use them much, during games, which is a failing on Eddie's part. He has to stop thinking he knows everything from his NBA days and accept help and not be intimidated bringing in a top flight assistant. I thought O'Koren would be the guy to help improve the low post game for the bigs, and the defensive guy but I guessed wrong.
For the record. Choppin, our then AD--cannot remember his name, but he was inadequate, did indicate that a constant drumfire on the boards helped propel him into the worst decision an RU AD has ever made since refusing a BE invite, namely the firing of Gary Waters and the hiring of the total disaster that was Fred Hill. People were so sure Seton Hall was about to snap Hill up.
TL
Looks like 306 will be the nadir of the season - even a loss in the first game of the B1G tournament shouldn't drop us down below that. Minnesota dropped from 178 to 198 after their loss.
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