Edelson Calls for Eddie to Be Fired.

[goru7]

[QUOTE="goru7, post: 1596038, member: 2194" I have seen Eddie as a player and he was one of the best defenders around so I know he knows how to play and coach defense . .

But you're wrong, the stats bear it out. He is a terrible defensive coach both here and in the pros.

Listen, I get it, you like Eddie. That's great. But the eye test and the statistics of the past 3 years, not to mention the record do to trend toward him ever having a successful team here. Next year, when he finds 4 Big Ten wins because has depth--and maybe he schedules enough cupcakes in the OOC to get to thirteen wins--we'll be having the same conversation. It's better to cut things off now and start the real rebuild now instead of delaying a year.

Eddie came here when things were bad and calmed the waters. But now, he is ruining the brand again--do you think anyone takes Rutgers seriously or thinks Eddie is going to turn things around? On his resume he has a 61 points loss, a 50 points loss, a 15 game losing streak, a 13 game ongoing losing streak... it's terrible.

But hey, if he stays, we'll be here again having this conversation and I'm sure you'll find another injury or chemistry problem to blame.[/QUOTE]
I am hoping this time next year, the full roster has shown what it is capable of, and then the only conversation we will be having is do we extend Eddie 2 or 3 years?

 

[RUChoppin]

Okay let's go by his Juco stats , which are Big 10 worthy , or his 6-7 game stats, the last 2 games playing hurt, at 13.3 per game.
I am going to rely on Bob Wenzel and others I know that have seen Nigel this year and believe he will be a player in the Big 10 , not listen to you and the other negative guys looking at life without any hope forever in every post that is made.

I'm sure Bob Wenzel had great things to say about his own players over his last four years here, too, when his average record was 11-16. Remember, this is a guy who gave a scholarship to Darko Matijesavic and who hasn't coached in 20 years.

EJ recently said that Johnson was the best player on the team, even better than Corey. My question is how on earth would he (or Wenzel, for that matter) know that? We haven't been able to get him on the court against real competition because of transfer rules, and we haven't been able to even run 5 on 5 in practice. Is he the best 1 on 1? The best in 3 on 3 drills? What have we been able to do in practice that comes close to simulating a real game environment against a real defense?... and given what our defense has looked like the past three years, showing well against it in practice isn't the same as showing it against real competition. EJ also said Foreman was the best player coming into the season, based on what he was seeing in practice... and that clearly hasn't translated this year to on court success.

All we know for certain is the performance Nigel Johnson showed while at Kansas State, and the performance Deshawn Freeman showed against poorly ranked OoC teams. Everything beyond that is extrapolation, assumption, opinion, hearsay, and whimsy.

Players generally improve year to year, but not always. And that improvement usually comes either through live game experience or practices that aren't limited to just 6 or 7 scholarship players. Neither Johnson or Freeman have had much of either.

 

[ruman]

But you're wrong, the stats bear it out. He is a terrible defensive coach both here and in the pros.

Listen, I get it, you like Eddie. That's great. But the eye test and the statistics of the past 3 years, not to mention the record do to trend toward him ever having a successful team here. Next year, when he finds 4 Big Ten wins because has depth--and maybe he schedules enough cupcakes in the OOC to get to thirteen wins--we'll be having the same conversation. It's better to cut things off now and start the real rebuild now instead of delaying a year.

Eddie came here when things were bad and calmed the waters. But now, he is ruining the brand again--do you think anyone takes Rutgers seriously or thinks Eddie is going to turn things around? On his resume he has a 61 points loss, a 50 points loss, a 15 game losing streak, a 13 game ongoing losing streak... it's terrible.

But hey, if he stays, we'll be here again having this conversation and I'm sure you'll find another injury or chemistry problem to blame.

=====================================================================
The concept that this team is going to come together for some breakthrough season next year is pure fantasy and no way to build a program. The thinking was a stretch to begin with, and went out the window entirely when the two key players in this strategy got suspended. You can have zero faith that these two are in it for the long haul. For the come together next year scenario to happen, we need to believe:

1. Freeman is going to come back healthy and get over whatever caused his suspension. He would then have to stay healthy and not behave in a way to get suspended again.

2. That Sanders will not leave, or go play overseas, and be reliable next year. Again, we have to believe he wont get in trouble next year.

3. That Doorson & Diallo will get and stay healthy, and progress to be productive players. Both aspects of this are shaky at best.

4. That we will get something out of our freshman. None seem to be impact players.

5. And if all that happens, that Jordan will get the to play together in some sort of winning basketball.

Sorry if my choices are to put my hopes on the scenario above or blow it up, I say blow it up. The listing above is a pipe dream

 

[goru7]

I'm sure Bob Wenzel had great things to say about his own players over his last four years here, too, when his average record was 11-16. Remember, this is a guy who gave a scholarship to Darko Matijesavic and who hasn't coached in 20 years.

EJ recently said that Johnson was the best player on the team, even better than Corey. My question is how on earth would he (or Wenzel, for that matter) know that? We haven't been able to get him on the court against real competition because of transfer rules, and we haven't been able to even run 5 on 5 in practice. Is he the best 1 on 1? The best in 3 on 3 drills? What have we been able to do in practice that comes close to simulating a real game environment against a real defense?... and given what our defense has looked like the past three years, showing well against it in practice isn't the same as showing it against real competition. EJ also said Foreman was the best player coming into the season, based on what he was seeing in practice... and that clearly hasn't translated this year to on court success.

All we know for certain is the performance Nigel Johnson showed while at Kansas State, and the performance Deshawn Freeman showed against poorly ranked OoC teams. Everything beyond that is extrapolation, assumption, opinion, hearsay, and whimsy.

Players generally improve year to year, but not always. And that improvement usually comes either through live game experience or practices that aren't limited to just 6 or 7 scholarship players. Neither Johnson or Freeman have had much of either.

You don't think Wenzel as a color analyst for the last 20 plus years watching and calling basketball games for ESPN or the Big 10 network is an opinion you would listen to but I think he has seen a lot more basketball than you and has access to practices prior to the game day he is broadcasting . I am going to make a little guess here that he knows more than you do about college basketball players. My earliest hearing about Nigel was during the summer and in the early fall before the season started. That was the opinion of everyone who watched the guys play or scrimmage. I get it you want to see it in a real game. Since he will likely be a starter next year I guess you will get to see if he is a Big 10 worthy starter!!

 

[goru7]

=====================================================================
The concept that this team is going to come together for some breakthrough season next year is pure fantasy and no way to build a program. The thinking was a stretch to begin with, and went out the window entirely when the two key players in this strategy got suspended. You can have zero faith that these two are in it for the long haul. For the come together next year scenario to happen, we need to believe:

1. Freeman is going to come back healthy and get over whatever caused his suspension. He would then have to stay healthy and not behave in a way to get suspended again.

2. That Sanders will not leave, or go play overseas, and be reliable next year. Again, we have to believe he wont get in trouble next year.

3. That Doorson & Diallo will get and stay healthy, and progress to be productive players. Both aspects of this are shaky at best.

4. That we will get something out of our freshman. None seem to be impact players.

5. And if all that happens, that Jordan will get the to play together in some sort of winning basketball.

Sorry if my choices are to put my hopes on the scenario above or blow it up, I say blow it up. The listing above is a pipe dream

All 5 things you mentioned are much more likely to happen than not!!

 

[AreYouNUTS]

where is that most likely going to get us?

Program needs glue, not glitter.

We have Corey Sanders and still we are the worst team in P5 basketball by FAR!!!!!

we need 4 year guys....not individuals..not guys dancing at halftime warmups down 20.

HUH???? NONE of this has anything to do with the conversation that we are having. NONE OF IT. This conversation is about whether or not EJ has "LOST CONTROL" of the program, not a vilification of Corey Sanders. Way to attempt to spin out of this one lol!

 

[RUChoppin]

You don't think Wenzel as a color analyst for the last 20 plus years watching and calling basketball games for ESPN or the Big 10 network is an opinion you would listen to but I think he has seen a lot more basketball than you and has access to practices prior to the game day he is broadcasting . I am going to make a little guess here that he knows more than you do about college basketball players. My earliest hearing about Nigel was during the summer and in the early fall before the season started. That was the opinion of everyone who watched the guys play or scrimmage. I get it you want to see it in a real game. Since he will likely be a starter next year I guess you will get to see if he is a Big 10 worthy starter!!

"As a color analyst" is pretty much all you need to say about Wenzel. His job is to fill air time and talk up the players. When covering a team that's wholly noncompetitive through much of the broadcast, "filling air time" usually turns to talk of "we'll get'em next year" and what the various prospects futures might look like. His coaching career crashed and burned at Rutgers, and he then took a position in the booth trying to make games sound more interesting than they really are. The term "grain of salt" should be used with any player evaluations he may make in that role.

And again - he hasn't seen Nigel Johnson perform in a live game (or even simulated game) environment, either. The best he has to go on is watching a handful of practices where we can't even go 5 on 5.

That doesn't mean Johnson won't have a breakthrough year next year - but it also doesn't mean he won't continue at the same level he was when he left KSU... or that he won't regress when asked to take on starter minutes. He's Schrodinger's Shooting Guard right now - until we open the box next season to see what he can do in a real game environment, he can exist as both an elite SG and a career backup (and any flavor in between).

 

[Bleed_Scarlet]

No need to make it a spectacle. He just made the right decision easy to make. A layup for Hobbs. The article didn't go overboard. It says this

"He’s just not a very good college basketball coach, having spent virtually his entire coaching career in the NBA."

He wasn't a very good NBA coach either, winning under 43 % of his games

 

[goru7]

"As a color analyst" is pretty much all you need to say about Wenzel. His job is to fill air time and talk up the players. When covering a team that's wholly noncompetitive through much of the broadcast, "filling air time" usually turns to talk of "we'll get'em next year" and what the various prospects futures might look like. His coaching career crashed and burned at Rutgers, and he then took a position in the booth trying to make games sound more interesting than they really are. The term "grain of salt" should be used with any player evaluations he may make in that role.

And again - he hasn't seen Nigel Johnson perform in a live game (or even simulated game) environment, either. The best he has to go on is watching a handful of practices where we can't even go 5 on 5.

That doesn't mean Johnson won't have a breakthrough year next year - but it also doesn't mean he won't continue at the same level he was when he left KSU... or that he won't regress when asked to take on starter minutes. He's Schrodinger's Shooting Guard right now - until we open the box next season to see what he can do in a real game environment, he can exist as both an elite SG and a career backup (and any flavor in between).

Yeah but you can never see the positive side. Here at Ru we are overdo with some positive news.

 

[RUChoppin]

Yeah but you can never see the positive side. Here at Ru we are overdo with some positive news.

I see the side that's been shown to me. Johnson could be better or worse than he was at Kansas State... but all I can see is what he's shown at Kansas State.

Instead of the glass being half full or half empty (subjective).... it's half water and half air (objective).

 

[TDIrish27]

goru7

You said that no Bigtime Assistant Coach would come to a school like Rutgers.

I pointed out that Collins went to NW from Duke which has a record matching RU in terms of NCAA futility.

Then you toss back that NW is a great school academically and Collins is from Chicago

Gee thanks for that tidbit------BTW my daughter is a grad.

Some might think that would even make it a harder sell to players.

EJ is a grad------was a Nets Assistant and a resident of Montclair. He has spent 10 years of his life in NJ.

Your premise is flawed.

If a change is going to be made I would want a guy who has been in the living rooms of talented players with multiple offers from good programs and has won a few battles.

 

[goru7]

I see the side that's been shown to me. Johnson could be better or worse than he was at Kansas State... but all I can see is what he's shown at Kansas State.

Instead of the glass being half full or half empty (subjective).... it's half water and half air (objective).

What do you think of the lineup I proposed in an earlier thread? Any chance you take a stab instead of actually waiting to see?

 

[goru7]

goru7

You said that no Bigtime Assistant Coach would come to a school like Rutgers.

I pointed out that Collins went to NW from Duke which has a record matching RU in terms of NCAA futility.

Then you toss back that NW is a great school academically and Collins is from Chicago

Gee thanks for that tidbit------BTW my daughter is a grad.

Some might think that would even make it a harder sell to players.

EJ is a grad------was a Nets Assistant and a resident of Montclair. He has spent 10 years of his life in NJ.

Your premise is flawed.

If a change is going to be made I would want a guy who has been in the living rooms of talented players with multiple offers from good programs and has won a few battles.

Tell me who that would be that would even consider this job?

 

[bac2therac]

You don't think Wenzel as a color analyst for the last 20 plus years watching and calling basketball games for ESPN or the Big 10 network is an opinion you would listen to but I think he has seen a lot more basketball than you and has access to practices prior to the game day he is broadcasting . I am going to make a little guess here that he knows more than you do about college basketball players. My earliest hearing about Nigel was during the summer and in the early fall before the season started. That was the opinion of everyone who watched the guys play or scrimmage. I get it you want to see it in a real game. Since he will likely be a starter next year I guess you will get to see if he is a Big 10 worthy starter!!

lmao...do you really think that Bob Wenzel isn't being anything but a loyal shill to Jordan...that's his friend and former assistant. Of course he supports him, like he would ever badmouth him anyway. Bob was also convinced he would turn it around in the Big East and should have canned two years sooner for his bottom feeding A10 ways. I thank Bob for those NCAA tourneys both when I was in school but hes basically a bag of wind when it comes to objectively talking about RU hoops as is Tom Young and Joe Boylan who puts me to sleep

 

[bac2therac]

All 5 things you mentioned are much more likely to happen than not!!

no they are not...you need all of them to happen, if one doesn't happen, the team has a ceiling of 12 wins again. With the suspensions and previous suspension of Etou and guys transferring out, it now raises the question of discipline under Jordan, while I cant say he lost control, there is a great deal of uncertainty now in that area adding the the plethora of uncertainty that existed before.

 

[RUChoppin]

What do you think of the lineup I proposed in an earlier thread? Any chance you take a stab instead of actually waiting to see?

Not sure what exactly you proposed, but here are my rough expectations:

PG Sanders - Proven talent, should improve as a sophomore, but there's always the potential of a sophomore slump. Hopefully he comes back, and stays on the right side of team rules. Should be able to focus more on running the offense instead of being the primary scorer with more scoring options back in the lineup. Would expect assists to go up, turnovers to go down, and scoring to go down.

SG Johnson - Right now, all he's shown is that he can be a B12 backup SG. Lots of smoke from Wenzel/Jordan, but haven't seen any fire yet. Wait and see. Not expecting an upgrade at the SG spot at this point.

SF Laurent - Shown flashes, but is inconsistent. Has been playing out of position - will likely do better when playing the three, but has little collegiate experience there and will take some time to get acclimated. Should improve as a sophomore, but again potential of a sophomore slump.

PF Freeman - Showed flashes of talent against bad teams. Coming off of two injuries - can he stay healthy?. Also, hopefully he comes back, and stays on the right side of team rules. Don't know how consistent he can be, or how effective he'll be against stiffer competition (which he has never faced).

C Doorson/Diallo - Low expectations right now based on what we've seen so far. Both coming off of injuries - can they stay healthy? Hopefully can contribute on defense and stay out of foul trouble. Both will be developing big men, and the center position will be a weak point.

Bench:
Williams will hopefully improve as a junior - needs better shot selection, but should do better playing his natural position.
Foreman will also hopefully improve as a junior - needs to finish better, get stronger around the rim.
Thiam - no idea what he'll bring, or how ready he'll be for this level of competition on day one. Not expecting much.
Goode/Tripp/Dailey - not expecting any meaningful minutes.
TBD - Not expecting anyone we get this late in the game for the last roster spot to be an impact player next year.

Jordan: Very good chance he may not be back, but if he is... Defense will still be weak, and we haven't shown that we have the horses to consistently win shootouts in this league. May start to develop some sense of offensive identity if everyone stays healthy, but there will be misfires and confusion at points since this team hasn't practiced together in a year. May win a couple we shouldn't if everyone gets hot and the team is clicking, and may lose a couple we shouldn't if a couple guys go cold at the same time.

 

[RU93]

Huge Jordan fan from day 1 - he's a loyal son. But he sucks as College BBall coach and recruiter, and he needs to be FIRED after this season!

 

[TDIrish27]

Wouldn't have a clue----not my job .

But Rutgers is paying a guy to do that.