EDITED>>>Holy moses...take w grain of salt...bart preseason
- Thread starter Greene Rice FIG
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Because there are only so many minutes to go around.
If 40 min are taken at the 5 by Johnson/Doucoure/Carter, and the 80 min at the 3/4 are taken by Omoruyi/Harper/Yeboah, that leaves just 80 min for 6 guys at guard - Baker/Mathis/Young/McConnell/Mulcahy/Kiss. That's a big crunch.
I know that FIG sees value in getting more minutes for our perimeter players, and that with minutes at a premium you want your best guys on the court - which would mean playing guards over Carter/Doucoure (at least with what we've seen of them so far) and moving Omoruyi to the 5 spot. I don't agree with how *often* we'll see that, though.
These are good problems to have, though - it's not "how are we going to fill our minutes with good players" but "how are we going to get minutes for all our good players".
Unfortunately when you (I know it is mostly me) dwell on these issues in sports inevitably because of injury it takes care of itself.
Not only that...but the one guy on the team (and maybe Harper is number 2) thar is proven to he can get all the way to the rim off the bounce from the perimeter
I love that many are doubting this kid ...i won’t be surprised that when kyk reports that Harper is the most improved player this offseason and will be the best player on the team, that Montez is number 2...and then geo and Eugene in no particular order are 3 and 4.
This is why I think we could be in for our breakthrough year
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Mathis is a baller - and is definitely our best guy in transition, best guy of the dribble, and is a plus defender. Hard to put him on the bench - but it's hard to put anyone else on the bench either. Have to think we're going to have people saying "Pike should have played X more" after some of our losses this year.
This is more of a reason why we need EIGHT guy rotation ...with 9 and 10 knowing their minutes come exclusively hen someone 1 through 8 have foul trouble
Keeping the Chemistry from knowing our roles and chemistry
Right now ...my eight would be
Baker 28
Eugene 27
Mathis 26
Harper 26
Young 24
Johnson 24
Yeboah 23
Mulchay 22
Macconnell gets minutes of anyone at the 1,2,3 who can’t fill their minutes in a game with
Carter get minutes of anyone at the 4 or 5 who can’t fill their minutes in a game when they have to sit with foul trouble
Yes..it means “small ball “ 16 minutes a game ...I’ll take my chances with the mismatches we create in our benefit than with those 16 minutes we give up a little size...considering Eugene and yeboah...when together...are still good boarders and lots of height to team rebound on the floor
And ...I like Caleb game a lot ...I just like the guys ahead of him more ...and I think that speaks a lot of the talent we are developing.
Truth is ...times are changing
Our 9th through 12th guys of
Macconnell, kiss, doucoure and carter would be a nucleus of a team if they were all that we had ...would be better than the top nucleus of maybe a of the teams we have had in the last 25 years ...and they are 9 through 12
Really weird that people are still trying to project all these guys passing Geo and Gene... lol. Gene has improved 3 years in a row. If he's healthy watch out. Geo will be the biggest beneficiary of Mathis/Harper improvement and/or the new additions.
Eh... everyone has their idea of how it will play out. Luckily these days they're mostly positive
Eh... everyone has their idea of how it will play out. Luckily these days they're mostly positive
Eugene shot 45% on non-3s in B1G play and averaged 12.4/6.8 in league that included a 7 minute 0/0 in the game he got hurt. He is a serious candidate for 2nd team All-B1G next season and our best player. EO is our best on ball defender and rebounder. He shoots 70%FT and 80% when it matters most. He averaged more points and more rebounds than Nick Ward. Ward was 3rd All-B1G. The only reason EO doesn't get 28+ minutes is because he gets hurt again. I like Yeboah but I think EO is far superior player.
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To me, Geo, EO, Myles, and Harper are the core of the team and get most of the minutes, especially at the end of a close game. Mathis needs to improve his shooting, both mid-range, FT, and 3pt, as well as his passing and decision making, in order for him to get more minutes than the others at the 2 spot. I like McConnell better than him based on last year since McConnell is more well rounded than Mathis. Also, I don't think Coach wants EO to play the 5 as he'd be overmatched and pick up fouls. If Doucoure is able to, he'd be Myles' backup, and, if not, then Carter. Yeboah is also going to take minutes from Mathis, with Harper moving to the 2 spot and Yeboah at the 3. I think Young gets minutes and Mulcahy and Kiss are at the near end of the bench. But, of course, we'll all be proven wrong once the B10 season starts, lol.
Very hard to discount McConnell's shooting, though.
From the start of February, where he started getting more serious minutes, he was averaging: 22.2 min, 9.4 pts (49.3% FG, 51.3% 2P, 46.4% 3P, 80.0% FT), 3.5 rb, 1.3 stl, 1.2 ast, 1.3 tov, 2.3 pf
Compare to Baker, who was seeing 50% more minutes: 33.7 min, 9.7 pts (33.0% FG, 39.2% 2P, 27.6% 3P, 81.8% FT), 3.6 rb, 1.8 stl, 4.0 ast, 3.0 tov, 2.5 pf
Hard to keep McConnell on the bench, too - especially if he improves his game from freshman to sophomore year.
Agreed. Caleb was our best 3 point shooter. He's tall and long and a great passer with a high bball IQ. Zero chance he's not in the rotation
You guys don’t get what I’m saying ...he is still going to get minutes as number 9. Just that I think he is number 9.
And I really like the kid. I just think, from what I see, Baker, Mathis, Harper, Mulchay, and young are going to be ahead of him in the 1,2, and 3 pecking order. He certainly could displace either young or Mulchay next year ...it’s thar close.
I fully expect number 9, through fouls, to get 10 minutes a game: someone always has fouls and, for a change, we don’t have to risk a guy on the court with two fouls in the first half or a guy with four fouls with less than 6 minutes to go
You used up 200 min on your 8 man rotation, which doesn't really leave 10 min a game for #9. I also think that McConnell will end up earning more than 10 mpg through his shooting - we're more dangerous offensively when he's on the floor.
I was clear that my minutes let game (which adds up to 10) was based on an eight man rotation until fouls kick in....the number 9 and 10 get the minutes those minutes when someone is foul trouble ...
Got it, so those minutes projections are meaningless and shouldn't be given any thought.
A few of you guys have no clue as to how much is thought of McConnell by those in the know.
Just went back and reread this.... maybe I'm misunderstanding, but it looks like you're saying you left 10 min per game in your 8 man rotation, but you didn't. Your rotation adds up to 200 min - so there are 10+ minutes in there that need to be carved out if you are going to leave room for your 9th (or 10th) man.
Aside from that, though, I just don't see Pike going with a tight 8 man rotation and only leaving "foul trouble" minutes for the rest - he has tended to go deeper in his rotations in the past. Across his 14 seasons, the 8 players seeing the most minutes averaged 87% of the total minutes played, which leaves about 26 minutes per game, on average, for the rest of the roster. The 9th man has averaged 10 min (total minutes played / total team games), but the 10th has also averaged 8.... and in most of those seasons, he hasn't had as deep a bench as he will have this season.
Knights1212
You are correct ...and I really like Macconnell
But I also know that it’s a math equation that there is only 200 minutes on a team to spread out...and from experience watching college basketball for 40 years..and with a few exceptions, just can’t play a regular rotation of 9 or 10 guys and keep everyone happy.
Nor can you play that’s many guys a get them in sync on the court...too much rotation effects continuity
Heck...even I pointed that out in mid January that we needed to cut down the minute sharing to do this...and our results Improved, I think , in big part to this
So if it’s not Macconnell out of the 8 man rotation, I think it needs to be someone. We can debate that ...that’s who I think it should be with what I see and know. And if he proves it wrong and it’s someone else..no problem by me
“Play the best and fair to the rest “...perfect
Provided Yeboah is NOT heads and shoulders better than most on the team I believe there were pros and cons in getting him.
Regarding Mathis....yes he can get to the rim. Yes he can be our best defender. He still needs to be a competent perimeter shooter. If not I can’t see playing him starter minutes. His ability to get out and run and finish in transition is huge in games against the bottom 310 teams. Against the top 50 transition opportunities are much less frequent.
Regarding Mathis....yes he can get to the rim. Yes he can be our best defender. He still needs to be a competent perimeter shooter. If not I can’t see playing him starter minutes. His ability to get out and run and finish in transition is huge in games against the bottom 310 teams. Against the top 50 transition opportunities are much less frequent.
I think we have the opportunity to play different lineups now to attack different defensive looks. If a team is clogging the paint with a zone, McConnell may see a lot more burn than Mathis to punish them from the outside.... whereas if a team is extending man coverage out past the arc, Mathis might get more minutes breaking his man down off the dribble.
I can't remember a time when we've had the versatility to plug and play different players to counter different defenses.
We also have much more ability to absorb an injury from the 1-4 spots.
I don't see the potential to be 2nd team all B1G (too many good players ahead of him) but would prefer to be wrong and would sign up for 3rd team today. Too many turnovers and would like to see less 1 on 1 play in the post.
If we get further away from Geo and Eugene averaging 5.5 turnovers per game, we are doing something different than last year. We need that number to be around 4 per game between those two, to take the next step.
Both come into this year as our most experienced players and why Yeboah and McConnell (to me) also see minutes in crunch time. We could place 4 kids on the floor that should be 75% or higher from the FT line, which will be the deal-maker for me playing Eugene less minutes in the middle of games and keeping him fresher.
I am going to stay away from the 80 minutes between Doucoure, Myles and Carter. I don't think Myles Johnson needs to be at 24 to 25 minutes a game.....some games yes, others not so much. Certain kids can give you a maximum performance at 16 to 19 minutes where they're not fatigued...when they're a little more tired, the reach in fouls and miscues start to increase.
I see that total closer to 55 to 60 minutes than 80.
Barring something unforseen, i don't see any way McConnell doesn't take a step forward towards a 24 minute a game player. He does too many things on the court, just lacks that next level of strength that maybe comes this summer and fall. If that happens and his confidence in games goes up, RU becomes very difficult to play against.
2 things have clearly changed with Rutgers basketball (at least in my eyes).
1. We have gone from how many minutes certain guys will have to play (I call them default minutes) to the reality that some good players may be on the outside looking in to get minutes.
2. We now need to look at players and how they will perform against top 50 teams in hostile environments. We need to look at personnel as how they fit with a team that is a 10-10 B1G team.
A player like Mathis great motor, can get to the rim and is a PLUS defender....how does this relate playing at Michigan where the team has a shot blocker, will get back on D AND we will need 3 point shooting?
A player like McConnell clearly has a good stroke from 3. It is great he can put up big numbers against Illinois in a crazy wacky game. Can he make a high enough percent of contested 3s or does he choose to pass to someone else. Can he defend top 3s in the B1G? Confident handle when needed?
Can Mulcahy defend? Can he take and make 3 point shots? Will he and Mathis ever be able to be on the court together against a top 50 team and actually score in a half court offense? Can Mulchay take a top 50 defender off the dribble? I have no doubts against the bottom 310, but what about top 50.
A lot of these questions will ultimately answer the rotation in B1G play. offensive efficiency HAS to be there. We cant rely on defense and hope to score enough points. We need to score 70-72 points on the 65-66 possessions AND they will have to be assumed in the context of a half court offense.
1. We have gone from how many minutes certain guys will have to play (I call them default minutes) to the reality that some good players may be on the outside looking in to get minutes.
2. We now need to look at players and how they will perform against top 50 teams in hostile environments. We need to look at personnel as how they fit with a team that is a 10-10 B1G team.
A player like Mathis great motor, can get to the rim and is a PLUS defender....how does this relate playing at Michigan where the team has a shot blocker, will get back on D AND we will need 3 point shooting?
A player like McConnell clearly has a good stroke from 3. It is great he can put up big numbers against Illinois in a crazy wacky game. Can he make a high enough percent of contested 3s or does he choose to pass to someone else. Can he defend top 3s in the B1G? Confident handle when needed?
Can Mulcahy defend? Can he take and make 3 point shots? Will he and Mathis ever be able to be on the court together against a top 50 team and actually score in a half court offense? Can Mulchay take a top 50 defender off the dribble? I have no doubts against the bottom 310, but what about top 50.
A lot of these questions will ultimately answer the rotation in B1G play. offensive efficiency HAS to be there. We cant rely on defense and hope to score enough points. We need to score 70-72 points on the 65-66 possessions AND they will have to be assumed in the context of a half court offense.
You, me and @Greene Rice FIG disagree strongly here. Outside of certain OOC games where it simply doesn't work I have watched this HC play (just about) 40 minutes/per with a true post Center. I have watched this HC recruit five pure post players: Gettys, Sa, Doucoure, Myles and Carter in three classes. We have '20 and '21 offers out to players in a similar mold: Omuryuri, Holmgren, Bediako, Patterson, etc.
I think I've seen enough to believe defense and rebounding is how this HC sees RU's best chance to win games in this league. And just about every lineup configuration we play has a Center on the floor. Last season we played 2.8% of our minutes without a Center on the floor. Carter and/or Doucore not taking a step forward and being able to hold their own in league could change this, but I think this staff gets them serviceable for when league play begins.
I think there is more competition for minutes this season than any year I can recall. That written I think I would have in pen that 35-40 minutes of in league game minutes will have either Myles, Doucoure or Carter at Center.
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I disagree with you ...however....if you are correct...then there is going to be bigger than ever long jam one through four ...as 160 minutes a game isn’t enough to keep EIGHT guys happy (Baker, Eugene, Harper, Mathis, Mulchay, Young, yeboah, and Macconnell)
It’s barely enough to keep 6 guys happy
And that worries me when you think about team chemistry
Can't disagree with RUTGHOOPS facts and 100% respect the argument
However.....
1. We have NEVER had enough depth to consider it. We have gone from how do we find enough players to get to 200 to how do we fit everyone in to the 200.
2. Why sign Yeboah for 1 year?
However.....
1. We have NEVER had enough depth to consider it. We have gone from how do we find enough players to get to 200 to how do we fit everyone in to the 200.
2. Why sign Yeboah for 1 year?
Pikiell has recruited post players but the current roster makeup is the result of a clear emphasis on guards and wings. Even the notable guys we've struck out on have been Alvarado, Massoud, Hyatt, the Martin twins... those aren't post guys.
Other thing to consider...maybe this shouldn't be said....Carter and Duke are not centers..they really are "old school PFs"
Kiss (Freshman) 13.3/5.6
Yeboah (Junior) 16.7/7.8
And I’d argue Kiss played in a bit tougher league than Yeboah. I like Yeboah a bunch and it fills our greatest need (a backup for Eugene), but I am just not ready to put 20 minutes next to his name.
This is something I've wondered, too. Carter, to my knowledge, hasn't played center at all. He was a PF in junior college, and he was a PF backing up Omoruyi last year. Moving him to back up Johnson at the 5 is a position change, and he seemed at times to struggle with defensive assignments already at PF. Not sure how he'll fare as the 5.
Doucoure came in as a center and played his first year as a 5 in a rotation with Doorson/Sa (with Freeman/Omoruyi splitting time at PF). Last year we were told he was taking more reps at PF, though - so not sure what we're going to see now that he's going to be back to the 5.
I'd imagine one of these two will become the primary backup for Johnson. I'd expect Johnson to usually play 22-25 min a game (which might swing wildly on foul trouble from 15-16 on some nights up to 28-30 on others. I'd also expect Omoruyi to see at least some minutes at center, too, as he did last year in smaller packages. That doesn't leave a lot of time left to divide between two guys.... right now I'd hedge more toward Doucoure being the primary backup, but that's not based on much.
Just one data point, but Quinnipiac's SOS was rated 221nd in 2016-17 by sports-reference.com. Stony Brook's schedule was rated 281/195/308 over Yeboah's three years there.
He did - though he was the 2nd scoring option for them (and one of three 13+ point scorers), so may have faced less defensive attention.
Yeboah also went into something of a scoring slump in the middle of last season, which I'm curious about. For 6 games from 1/26 to 2/16, he averaged: 31.3 min, 12.8 pts (.432 2P, .200 3P).... while the rest of the year he averaged: 32.0 MIN, 17.6 PTS (.516 2P, .343 3P). I wonder if their board has any insight on that.
Looked a bit more, and read some of their board's game threads. Seems like he had a knee injury at the start of the Quinnipiac game on 12/22, missed the Northern Iowa game on 12/29, and was back with a structural knee brace from 1/5 until 2/2. There were a lot of comments from fans that he was "not playing 100%" or "isn't nearly as quick since the injury" and that the brace was limiting his mobility.
Up to the game with the injury, he'd been averaging 20.0 ppg on 39.8% shooting from the arc.... after he came back, he averaged 15.2 ppg on 26.6% shooting from the arc. He also went to the line a lot less after the injury, dropping from 5.6 attempts per game to 3.2.... which may have meant he was going less aggressively to the rim. His assist numbers also doubled once he came back, which may have meant he was looking more for open players rather than looking to score.
Hoping he's fully healthy coming into this year.
Old school power forward is a dead position and is essentially the modern day center though. If you are that big and can't shoot from the outside you pretty much need to play the 5. Hard to have both a 4 and 5 who can't stretch the floor at all
If I am wrong and/or the minutes we need a more traditional 5 if i were to venture a guess I'd agree with you...Basing that with a lot of incomplete data
I think you can pull it off and be a good offense if one of the 4 or 5 at least has a 2 pt jumpshot, and if your 1 through 3 includes like two 40+% 3pt shooters, with the third (maybe the point guard) being a credible/35+% shooter.
We may or may not stick to an "8-man rotation." But even assuming arguendo we do, there's no reason it needs to be the SAME eight guys every night. Pike has shown a particular ability to gauge the flow of each game, "in-game," and adjust his rotation for THAT GAME based on what he sees.
So I can see games where we need more McConnell (and even Kiss) if teams play zone and we need more 3-point shooting. And I can see games where Mathis just "doesn't have it" and so McConnell and Mulcahy get more playing time. And I can see games where we need more dribble penetration or fast breaks, so Mathis and Mulcahy get more playing time.
I think the clear stars of the team will be Omoruyi, Baker, and Harper, and the rest of the "core" will be Johnson, Yeboah, Young, Mathis, and McConnell. I see Mulcahy gradually becoming more of a regular part of the rotation as the season progresses. I see Doucoure and Carter sharing the "other" minutes at the 5 spot, and their playing time will depend on matchups. Kiss will probably be the odd-man out.
So I can see games where we need more McConnell (and even Kiss) if teams play zone and we need more 3-point shooting. And I can see games where Mathis just "doesn't have it" and so McConnell and Mulcahy get more playing time. And I can see games where we need more dribble penetration or fast breaks, so Mathis and Mulcahy get more playing time.
I think the clear stars of the team will be Omoruyi, Baker, and Harper, and the rest of the "core" will be Johnson, Yeboah, Young, Mathis, and McConnell. I see Mulcahy gradually becoming more of a regular part of the rotation as the season progresses. I see Doucoure and Carter sharing the "other" minutes at the 5 spot, and their playing time will depend on matchups. Kiss will probably be the odd-man out.
I don't think defense and rebounding are bad things, they're good things. I also think if that's the roster you're dealt, that is what you focus on.
We had Doorson, Carter and Myles Johnson last year and I think out of necessity, there wasnt 80 minutes there, even if you add Eugene.
29 Eugene
16 Myles
16 Shaq Doorson
13 Shaq Carter
Keep in mind there were games where Carter played 18 to 28 minutes and games where he played less than 10.
The biggest weaknesses on the roster is footspeed (Yeboah, Jacob Young, Mulcahy) and quickness to the ball, pushing the ball and FT shooting. ...all 3 newcomers bring those elements.
Doorson and Myles were 40% or less in limited attempts or additional missed 1 and 1s. Doorson was excellent when it involved leaning on Wesson of Ohio State or trying to alter shots. But I just dont see Carter and Doucoure being fluid enough defensively and adding the offense needed.
I think Pike extremely limited in the 1st 3 years on what you can do on both ends of the court. Now, we can match up against the Ethan Happ, Jordan Murphy's on defense and those players now have to defend someone when they play RU now.
The difference between the bigs we have targeted is footspeed....they're lean, mobile and can switch defensive assignments. If you landed a Omoyuri type he and Myles make RU better defensively and can score without a play being run for them on offense.
I wouldn't use a stat line of Kiss vs Yeboah from their respective leagues. Yeboah is a player than can score off the dribble, where Kiss requires space to get his shot off
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