Here is another guy who we recruited and thought we had. Now he is leaving St. John's. He will have to sit out a year. I don't want him either as he shut us out two years ago. Matt Ryan was another guy we recruited and he went to Notre Dame. It is strange that these guys are both on the market again. I seem to recall that Eddie Jordan and Purvis Ellison were very close friends. We were recruiting Ellison's son for quite a while and he jumped to the Johnnies when Mullin was hired.
Ellison leaving St. John's.
- Thread starter knights1212
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Thanks for the update, Art.
I am wondering as a coach where you breakdown of how you acquire players lies. I think for a 3 for two to work, the player has to be a very impactful player.Like Zouzou. Someone like Johnson may have not been worth the 3 for 2 deal. I thought he was a good player, but as mentioned, as a coach you run a risk. For a 3 for 2 deal to work out, the player has to be ready to contribute in a large capacity. I am thinking 14ppg+ against d1, high level competition. 8 pts, 10 rebounds type of center.
Where the program lies now, I think you look 60% at four year players coming in from HS, 30% at 3 for 2 players/immediately eligible, and 10% at grad transfers.
The competition for grad transfers will be very high. Rutgers could be a good school for that given the area, and the amount of internships that lie in NYC. I would think a lot of grad players are not playing in the NBA, and have not received great options from overseas.
Like you said, they passed on the banks once. No thanks to either Ellison or Ryan.
I am wondering as a coach where you breakdown of how you acquire players lies. I think for a 3 for two to work, the player has to be a very impactful player.Like Zouzou. Someone like Johnson may have not been worth the 3 for 2 deal. I thought he was a good player, but as mentioned, as a coach you run a risk. For a 3 for 2 deal to work out, the player has to be ready to contribute in a large capacity. I am thinking 14ppg+ against d1, high level competition. 8 pts, 10 rebounds type of center.
Where the program lies now, I think you look 60% at four year players coming in from HS, 30% at 3 for 2 players/immediately eligible, and 10% at grad transfers.
The competition for grad transfers will be very high. Rutgers could be a good school for that given the area, and the amount of internships that lie in NYC. I would think a lot of grad players are not playing in the NBA, and have not received great options from overseas.
Like you said, they passed on the banks once. No thanks to either Ellison or Ryan.
I'd take em....a 6'6 Guard that shoots, gets into the lane and defends on the perimeter (per his coach Mitch Richmond). Yes, I'd really take him.
I could care less if he spurned ed Rutgers a few years ago.
I could care less if he spurned ed Rutgers a few years ago.
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We need guys than can help us now, not a year from now. Many of us are tired of losing seasons. Enough is enough.
REALLY Unrealistic for a build....especially for a team that last got to the post season NCAA's 20+ years ago. There's no 2 year turnaround for this program.....it's takes time.
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Ellison is a bench player at RU right now and doesn't defend at the level we need to improve the program....he mirrors Laurent as a hybrid SF and wanted to get Ellison as a SG/SF to compliment Laurent.....Ellison would not beat out Mike Williams at SG, so you would have duplicate players at SF ......he's better than Laurent in some aspects, but Laurent is tougher and a more determined player on the glass.
I don't think Matt Ryan ever really recovered to a level before he had hip injuries in HS....I would take Ryan if he was a 5th year transfer, but he also doesn't defend or rebound or play with any sort of toughness.
These are players that can help us and the goal at this stage is to make sure we recruit the right type of two-way player. If Ryan or Ellison show little effort to guard anyone, they become a negative player in the B1G, because they aren't going to score enough points to offset what they give up.....
Stick with the staff and the key remains you are holding a ship for next year, which restricts your depth and you may only get one year out of the player on the court the following season....You are better off taking a one year grad transfer, where you improve your roster immediately on the court and keep your ships open for the true building blocks of the program.
You can take a transfer if the player is a lock to start and plays both offense and defense....otherwise, you pass....
I don't think Matt Ryan ever really recovered to a level before he had hip injuries in HS....I would take Ryan if he was a 5th year transfer, but he also doesn't defend or rebound or play with any sort of toughness.
These are players that can help us and the goal at this stage is to make sure we recruit the right type of two-way player. If Ryan or Ellison show little effort to guard anyone, they become a negative player in the B1G, because they aren't going to score enough points to offset what they give up.....
Stick with the staff and the key remains you are holding a ship for next year, which restricts your depth and you may only get one year out of the player on the court the following season....You are better off taking a one year grad transfer, where you improve your roster immediately on the court and keep your ships open for the true building blocks of the program.
You can take a transfer if the player is a lock to start and plays both offense and defense....otherwise, you pass....
I'm not sure where you come up with this stuff, but, he played 24 minutes a game and his coach called him the teams best perimeter defender. Maybe, the best defender on a poor defending team....I don't know. He is certainly a Big guard....not a Laurent type at all. St. Johns had some high scorers in Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed taking most of the shots....so Ellison had limited shots , but still scored 8 per game.
I come up with "stuff", because you actually have to watch the game and that means not watching the basketball when you watch the games.
St. John's is poorly coached and no one and I truly mean no one on the entire roster practices defense. They are a roster of individuals who value shot attempts and how fast can they get the ball inbounds after they allow baskets.
Calling Ellison their best defender is not a compliment at all. It's shocking how many fans are in love with scoring and points, when no real program that has any consistent success, usually starts with defense and rebounding.
I think we are comparing Ellison to the existing roster because we are extremely limited athletically, specifically the lack of footspeed in the front court....that doesn't mean he impacts winning.
If you want to find a player that impacts games with less PPG and actually rebounds, defends and takes charges, you need a grinder like SHUs Sanogo....you have to have players not interested in stats or scoring to win.....
As limited as Eugene is offensively today, he has wayyy more upside on the five aspects you need than Ellison....passing, rebounding, size, footspeed, shooting and willingness to defend multiple positions.
Rutgers needs scorers....especially a big 6'6" scoring guard that can use his height to finish in the lane. He scored 8 ppg on a team where Ponds, Lovett and Ahmed took most of the shots. A 4th option scoring 8 ppg is pretty good.
Defense, specifically, team defense can be stressed by the coaches and improve dramatically. St. Johns has offensive coaches and want to outscore opponents, so I would not write off individual players on their roster as bad defenders. Players do what the coaches stress...day in, day out. For Pikiell and Jay Young, it's defense and rebounding. Ellison has the basic athleticism that can translate to him playing good defense. It's not like he has slow foot speed that would make him playing good defense impossible.
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We need players now, not someone who must sit a year. The kid strung us along and led us to believe he was coming to RU 2 years ago. At the last minute he threw us under the bus. If we were not good enough for him at that time we are not good enough now. We are only allowed 13 scholarship players and I cannot see more than one being a transfer who has to sit. The Bryant kid is at this time the only one I would possibly accept but I trust our coaches. They will make the final decisions. Hawk is a guy who shows a lot of wisdom concerning RU B-Ball. At this time there are an awful lot of players becoming available. We are pursuing several and I think our coaches will make decent decisions.
SJU plays the game like RU did under Eddie Jordan....run and gun, no defense, no rebounding, no concepts of basketball....here are the points allowed, which adds more possessions to your offensive stats....8PPG for Ellison is almost the equivalent of Laurent's numbers his freshman season vs this year, when, there are far less possessions on offense, because RU plays actual defense....that's why Sanders and Laurent and most numbers are down from one year with no concept, to the next year with an actual plan on both ends of the court....
Minnesota...92....
Penn State 92.....
Creighton 85...
Xavier 97....
Georgetown... 83
Seton Hall 86.....
Providence 83
Add to that lengthy list of points allowed is 86...92...110...93....80... 82.. 86 and 108.
I don't have the time to dig into the pace or points per possession on offense, but I watched at least a dozen of their games and in various "what if scenarios", over the last year or so of "what if RU had this player we didn't get in recruiting" and at no point did I watch RU this year and say "immediate starter", "immediate contributor"......The one player we could've really used was Charles Cooke, who visited here and went to Dayton....he was a two way player, guards people, bouncy, athletic and can get his own points....Archie Miller got Cooke on track, by playing defense first.
With Ellison's 8PPG inflated because of all the extra possessions SJU gives up, he would probably average around 4-5PPG on a defensive focused team that isn't playing streetball....There is a reason he's transferring, Arizona transfer Justin Simon is coming in and going to absorb whatever minutes Ellison would have played, so his production would be reduced to a role player there with even less minutes OR a role player here as well next year.
If I'm looking for a transfer, the player has to be excellent or very good at one thing (preferably shooting or a pure PG), where I maybe have a chance to develop him into a willing/decent defender....but that player has to have the mindset to do so and there is no way I would tie up a scholarship for a full season this year, on a complimentary, non-starter that doesn't defend and isn't an excellent/lights out shooter, which he isn't.
Minnesota...92....
Penn State 92.....
Creighton 85...
Xavier 97....
Georgetown... 83
Seton Hall 86.....
Providence 83
Add to that lengthy list of points allowed is 86...92...110...93....80... 82.. 86 and 108.
I don't have the time to dig into the pace or points per possession on offense, but I watched at least a dozen of their games and in various "what if scenarios", over the last year or so of "what if RU had this player we didn't get in recruiting" and at no point did I watch RU this year and say "immediate starter", "immediate contributor"......The one player we could've really used was Charles Cooke, who visited here and went to Dayton....he was a two way player, guards people, bouncy, athletic and can get his own points....Archie Miller got Cooke on track, by playing defense first.
With Ellison's 8PPG inflated because of all the extra possessions SJU gives up, he would probably average around 4-5PPG on a defensive focused team that isn't playing streetball....There is a reason he's transferring, Arizona transfer Justin Simon is coming in and going to absorb whatever minutes Ellison would have played, so his production would be reduced to a role player there with even less minutes OR a role player here as well next year.
If I'm looking for a transfer, the player has to be excellent or very good at one thing (preferably shooting or a pure PG), where I maybe have a chance to develop him into a willing/decent defender....but that player has to have the mindset to do so and there is no way I would tie up a scholarship for a full season this year, on a complimentary, non-starter that doesn't defend and isn't an excellent/lights out shooter, which he isn't.
On the other hand, you do need offense. Don't get caught up in the tempos stats. Look at the top 15 Offenses in the nation, guess who five are? North Carolina, Gonzaga, Kentucky, Kansas and UCLA. Often the simplest answer is the correct answer. The goal is still to put the ball in the hoop.
Knights...no disrespect intended, but, the entire "he spurned" us two years ago so we don't want him now is a little silly. If he can help in 2018, if Pikiell wants him and can make it work with the roster...who cares what happened two years ago. Pikiell was not even the coach at the time.
Here's what I do know....It's been a long time since Rutgers had a big guard at 6'5, 6'6" that can drive it into the lane and finish near the basket. As far as his outside shot....he shot 34% from 3 point land...not great, but, not horrible.
Just don't bring any Cancer back to the team. I finally feel like we have player "buy-in".
Yes we need scorers....but all you need is one guy not doing his part to screw it up.
(and I am speaking in general terms cause I don't follow these kids like you guys do).
Yes we need scorers....but all you need is one guy not doing his part to screw it up.
(and I am speaking in general terms cause I don't follow these kids like you guys do).
It's not worth it in my mind to wait for a guy that scores 8 points a game. You wait a year, give a 3 yr scholarship to a guy to play two years that scores 14ppg.
Playmakers. Not role players, or players. Too much risk.
As fans, I see it as a rebuild that has to start off with the right 4 year players.. I am sure the coaches see it the same. Bring in four year players to develop, and if there is a 3 for 2 guy that is a tremendous talent, you take him. Ellison is not worth that risk.
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I agree with hawk. I think Ellison had the ability coming out of HS to be a terrific defender, but he elected to go to SJU. Has the current RU staff inherited him as a rising soph, I think he could have been a productive player for RU. But I think we have to aim higher if we are going to tie up a ship for a transfer.
St. John's is an interesting case study about defense. I went to kenpom expecting gruesome defensive statistics, but they weren't horrendous.
Overall 1.028 points per possession allowed which is 130th . the scoring numbers are elevated because tempo is 11th in country at 73.2 point per possession.
What keeps the defensive #s from being awful? Shot blocking. They had 2 shot blockers which combined played the entire game. St. john's finished 6th in the country blocking 15.2% of FG attempts.
They were pathetic defensive rebounding...314th and opp 3pt % 37.5% 300th
Overall 1.028 points per possession allowed which is 130th . the scoring numbers are elevated because tempo is 11th in country at 73.2 point per possession.
What keeps the defensive #s from being awful? Shot blocking. They had 2 shot blockers which combined played the entire game. St. john's finished 6th in the country blocking 15.2% of FG attempts.
They were pathetic defensive rebounding...314th and opp 3pt % 37.5% 300th
I get the 5th year senior based on our roster right now. If Pikiell went the transfer route with players sitting out it would be a VERY bad sign. Either you help us for 1 year right NOW or you help us gradually over the next 4 years.
Think NJ Hawk is on the money-
The Johnnies have always recruited very athletic players. The point by another poster on shot blocking confirms that the defensive statistics are skewed.
The Johnnies have always recruited very athletic players. The point by another poster on shot blocking confirms that the defensive statistics are skewed.
I'm confused by this thinking. College Basketball is filled with some REALLY good coaches that rebuilt teams using a combination of Transfers, JUCO's, 5th Year Seniors and freshmen. All options should be on the table.
I'm a BIG believer that Rutgers needs to get a great 4 or 5 player class on 2018....but, it's risky holding out for that given Rutgers' past. Do you turn down a scorer like the Bryant transfer that has to sit a year or someone else hoping that you hit it big in 2018? It's risky because the competition for those 2018 recruits will be very intense.
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I'm confused by NJH in the sense that Ellison has seen the worst coaching possible. Put him under Pike, especially with a RS year, and he will be a changed man just like all of our players were this year.
Anybody concerned that a xfer would pull a Nigel? Sit out a year, play a year, then become a grad xfer?
Also think people are overestimating our ability to pull in a good grad xfer. After all, are they leaving their school for the opportunity to play for a school probably going nowhere for that one year? I think he'd rather opt for a role on an Ncaa or better team.,
Also think people are overestimating our ability to pull in a good grad xfer. After all, are they leaving their school for the opportunity to play for a school probably going nowhere for that one year? I think he'd rather opt for a role on an Ncaa or better team.,
You may be right. There is risk everywhere. Transfers you give a player a put option after year 2 (year 1 in uniform).
My preference is 4 year players, but that is risky based on our roster makeup and potentially a silly timeline for success.
The bottom line is right now the roster needs a huge upgrade, and yes transfers and 5th year is a quicker way.
When you look at RUs past transfers and 5th years have rarely worked out (1991 was a long time ago), but unfortunately neither has players out of HS
Mitchell from Florida was a good transfer to Rutgers .I do agree with you that the roster needs a huge upgrade and it needs to start next season.More players must transfer out to bring in a few shooters.The goal should be a winning season next year and that will require more than 60-65 points per game.
That line of thinking is a big reason why we haven't won. There are 2 ways to build. I prefer the longer and tougher route.
Patience! This isn't a road to a 16-15 record. It should be a path to something greater and built for the long term
The transfer after your sophomore season (Assuming the player did not redshirt), is a scenario of 2 years for just one on the court.....with the way assistant coaches are in the ears of these AAU coaches/parents/guardians, you have no way of stopping a kid from leaving in his 5th year or after his graduation.
There are more talented 5th year players and JUCO's that have 2 years for 2 left that are as talented and more likely to contribute. The biggest thing is still the mistakes made by the parents/advisors/players in making the initial decision on a school.....Anyone with a clue, absolutely knew Ellison was not going to last all 4 years at St. Johns, yet he went anyway.
There are more talented 5th year players and JUCO's that have 2 years for 2 left that are as talented and more likely to contribute. The biggest thing is still the mistakes made by the parents/advisors/players in making the initial decision on a school.....Anyone with a clue, absolutely knew Ellison was not going to last all 4 years at St. Johns, yet he went anyway.
If I am a HS junior or senior thinking about where I am going to play there is no doubt in my mind that a fall back option is always a transfer after year 1 or year 2 which essentially gives me flexibility of where I play for 2 more stops in exchange for 1 year of a sit out. In that sit out year I can focus 100% on improving my skills and most importantly being a beast in the classroom.
Rutgers lacks the perception with recruits to endure another losing season and then have almost entirely a new squad in 2018-2019.The longer and tougher route hasn't worked for decades because top tier recruits failed to come and or transferred after 2 years.Pikiell must strike now while he has positive responses from the high school community and his assistant coaches like Knight don't leave for a head coaching position.Previous head coaches at Rutgers all thought they would turn the program around but reality was too much to overcome.
Might be old news to this board's intelligentsia. Ellison to Pitt ...
http://triblive.com/sports/college/...asketball-adds-tranfer-shooting-guard-ellison
http://triblive.com/sports/college/...asketball-adds-tranfer-shooting-guard-ellison
Best of luck to him. It seems to me though that Pitt is going backwards. I doubt they will be a factor in the ACC.
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