Flood's 3 recruiting classes
- Thread starter czxqa
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And this, along with injuries on the 2 deep and no QB depth, explains in part why we may only win one more game the rest of the way.
The fault lies with Flood, who left our program in shambles with his lack of discipline, coaching and recruiting.
As for Franklin, I think he's a great recruiter, who has used the sanctions as too much of an excuse to explain on field performance. Nothing he's done suggests (to me) he's a great coach. Time will tell. If he's not a great coach, you have no chance of pulling even with OSU, Mich and MSU - all of whom have top-notch coaches (and excellent recruiters).
He's an above average recruiter IMO but not great. He'll get next year for sure and maybe 2018. Either way, there will be a ton of experienced talent on the roster in 2018. Next year will all come down to how quickly the young OL (now true Freshman) can develop as well as LB staying healthy. D-Line already has ten or more guys playing every weekend and they're all coming back.
Part, but in MOST cases, the most important "part." There are not "too many" teams with "substandard" recruiting that play better "than their stars." There are always some, for sure, but those that really elevate there game tend to be due to the fact that they've had systems in place for a while and they don't lose boatloads of kids from the program, in a 3-4 year span, which is also a big part of this particular equation (and on the former HC...).
It all adds up, absolutely, but recruiting - as has been shown in this thread and a couple of others - is a HUGE part of that equation I'd say 4 out of 5 times.
What is the average star rating of the kids who have left the program from these 3 recruiting years vs the kids who remained? i bet if we looked at the average of the remaining the class ranks would drop further... thus it is a deeper quality issue than appears at face value AND a quantity problem... the cost of Flood keeps gets worse deeper you look into things
Exactly! And look at Northwestern today. We get absolutely demolished by OSU, but they hang in the entire game... and have had a worse recruitment than us over the past 4 years.
Talent is such an easy excuse. Year after year certain teams prove that it's more about coaching, like Northern Illinois.
- Awful special teams play is nearly always a symptom of coaching.
- Starting Laviano (after last year's tape) is a symptom of coaching.
- Some of the mind-boggling offensive schemes that would only work in a video game is a symptom of coaching.
- Terrible clock management is symptom of coaching
Guys, I pray it's just talent. I also still believe in Ash, and he absolutely deserves a free pass this season. But we do also have to be realists about what we're seeing out there.
In the meantime, everyone please get the talent excuse out of your system this year, bring it up as much as you humanly need to, because next year the excuse doesn't work any more.
You make good points, but if the problem is talent, it's not going to be fixed with one class of freshmen.
First off, yes the OP is excellent and eye-opening, but I think you misinterpreted something along the way. So with revised numbers, there were 71 commits with 25 washouts. So the OP's point that Flood lost an entire class along the way is very valid. But we aren't 9 players short of a full FCS complement. Whoever you credit the 2016 class to, that's another 18 players. Plus you have the small handful of incoming transfers. By my math, that's 67. A full FCS complement is 63. So well short of a full FBS complement, but not short of a FCS full complement.
Even a recruiting class full of talent isn't going to fix everything. Players are rarely finished products when they step on campus. That takes coaching and player development.
The offensive scheme that RU is running isn't some gimmick. It's a proven system, but you have to block people and have at least competent QB play for it to work.
Oh I couldn't agree more, but top flight teams like OSU and even Houston can afford to play these types of systems because recruiting mammoth/athletic linemen is easy for them. Rutgers has always had a problem with it.
I'm also not saying we need to become a 9-3 team next year. But with 2 recruiting classes under his belt, and a year to install a system... we need to see improvement.
Special teams, for example, is on coaching. That needs to improve and can't be blamed on recruiting.
My point is pretty basic... there's some big red flags. And dismissing everything as a talent issue ignores some core problems. Hopefully Ash can clean them all up, and with the defense he's already making strides, but if we keep using the talent excuse when other programs are getting far more out of their team with far less talent... we'll find ourselves in an even deeper hole years from now.
I mean look at Maryland. We were pretty much on the exact same level with them. In fact, some would argue better. Their recruiting and talent is very similar to ours. They really struggled to recruit the last couple years before Durkin. Yet, in year 1 of DJ, he has them highly competitive already. For better or worse, Durkin and Ash will be compared because very similar hires.
Time will tell if Ash wins out in the long run, but at present, not looking so great, and the big difference seems to be in assistants. As fans, we were all so darn excited about Ash, we didn't stop and think... is it a very questionable decision to hire a 27 year old for offensive coordinator of a Big10 team?
Head scratchers like that make me worried it's not just a talent problem...
There has been improvement already. Look at penalties. During the Flood years, we were averaging 9-12 per game. With a ton of pre-snap penalties. This year, that number is way down. That's coaching.
I agree with you on the comparison with Durkin. However, they haven't exactly played the same schedule at this point. Oh, and they just got bitch slapped by Indiana. Perhaps proof that some of their wins were a bit inflated.
That said, I think it's easy for everyone to pile on Mehringer. Frankly, I like the guy quite a bit. Work-wise, he did what he was asked to do: install a system that has proven to be successful elsewhere (where it's also been run by talented players). With Laviano in the game, it looks like a mess. But, with Gio, suddenly it looks a lot better. I am sure that trajectory will continue.
In the end, it's not JUST talent. Just like it's not JUST coaching,nor the offensive scheme, or whatever else we look at and don't like. It's a little bit of ALL of these things. Ash has how many years of head coaching experience? Don't expect him to hit it out of the park in his first year. This is a multi-year project for everyone involved.
Totally. I agree with you. It's a lot of factors, not just talent. Nor just coaching.
I wouldn't put too much stock in penalty statistics though.
a) you don't get penalized as much when you're blown out by halftime.
b) some of the best teams of all time were heavily penalized. I mean look at the hurricanes during their national championship runs. They were the most penalized team in the country.
Now of course, it's not bad to have fewer penalties, but I wouldn't say it's necessarily a hallmark of great coaching. Sometimes you want your guys to play loose and aggressive vs. soft and reserved (to not make mistakes).
Likewise, I really want to see Drew succeed, and he's certainly a hard worker, strong recruiter, and has a great future ... but I can't escape the fact that a head coach with little offensive experience would turn to a 27 year old who doesn't have much. Be one thing if a guy like Drew was our DC.
And despite what it may seem like from me, I really had all the confidence in the world in him at the start of the season. He talked a good game and I loved what happened in Houston and JMU. But between siding with Laviano, the ridiculous swapping of QBs mid series, the often formulaic schemes and silly madden-like trick plays ... I just haven't been impressed yet. But last week was a good step, and here's hoping he's a fast learner. Let's see how the next 4 games go.
Woah, woah, woah, woah. We were not recruiting evenly with Maryland the last few years.
Maryland had been out recruiting us during the Flood years, don't try and sugarcoat that. Edsall did a much better job of keeping his in state kids in Maryland and picking up a 4 star or two each year.
Edsall's recruiting class rankings:
2016: #39
2015: #55
2014: #48
2013: #33
Flood's recruiting class rankings:
2016: #78
2015: #54
2014: #58
2013: #44
Not saying Maryland is actually much better, don't think they are. But don't think a lot of people realize just how far we slipped under Flood. Ash is working miracles right now in recruiting and he's doing a great job holding this class together thus far.
Maryland had been out recruiting us during the Flood years, don't try and sugarcoat that. Edsall did a much better job of keeping his in state kids in Maryland and picking up a 4 star or two each year.
Edsall's recruiting class rankings:
2016: #39
2015: #55
2014: #48
2013: #33
Flood's recruiting class rankings:
2016: #78
2015: #54
2014: #58
2013: #44
Not saying Maryland is actually much better, don't think they are. But don't think a lot of people realize just how far we slipped under Flood. Ash is working miracles right now in recruiting and he's doing a great job holding this class together thus far.
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