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Football vs Basketball Coaching

RUSCFORMERLYRULOU

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Nov 12, 2017
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And yes, I am posting when we are getting blown out by KANSAS.

Pike has taken some lumps and lost to teams he shouldn't have . . but at the same time he's been in games he never should have been in and actually beaten a few. The progress feels more real in basketball than it is in football, and I think nearly everyone agrees. Plus, Pike's teams are actually fun to watch. What are the coaching qualities that make us feel that Pike is on the right track, while we feel the football team is never going to leave the abyss? Remember - the football team is closer to a .500 season than we are historically speaking.
 
Ash struck out swinging on ash but may have hit a homer with pike. I hope his errors with football don’t cost him his job.
 
I think the b-ball staff is a step above the football staff too (Knight, Karl Hobbs et al). I was happy about McNulty but now don't know what to think. Blazek used to make me happy but our offensive line has actually regressed from last year.
Regarding Blazek... at one point during Schiano's tenure it was generally accepted that Flood was an OL guru. The year after that the OL fell apart. A lot still comes down to talent. Personally I am still excited about McNulty, more than I am Ash honestly.

Pike has managed to keep together a staff longer than normal, the team has an identity with D and rebounding (does the football team have an identity?), he's managed to turn over the roster quickly and importantly always has a plan B when he misses out on his first option in recruiting.

I think that when the basketball team loses its either because they're clearly over matched, or because it seems like the actual talent on the team has been exhausted by the effort they've been putting in. I've rarely watched and thought Pike was not a good coach.

The football team is another story.
 
When we lose basketball games, it is never due to a lack of preparation, effort, or intensity. You certainly can't say that for Ash's teams.

This. And a few other thoughts:

1. The way that Pikiell has embraced Eddies recruits has been awesome. Pike goes out of his way to uplift and promote and love these guys. Even when we are at a obvious talent deficiency, you would never know it by the way he talks about his players. This goes a long way toward these upper classmen playing so hard for Pikiell.

2. Pikiell’s demeanor is energetic and positive all of the time. On the sidelines, it’s like he is really in the game clapping and rooting and sweating and showing energy.

A major pillar in leadership is to find a way, every day, to show you care about every person on your team. Steve Pikiell does this.
 
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I think the b-ball staff is a step above the football staff too (Knight, Karl Hobbs et al). I was happy about McNulty but now don't know what to think. Blazek used to make me happy but our offensive line has actually regressed from last year.
It's amazing how much worse a coach you become when you don't have Ray Rice, Brian Leonard, and a great offensive line. It's equally amazing how short people's memories are. Although McNulty was hailed as a savior in his return to RU, at various points in 2007 & 2008, there were not a small number of people on these boards who wanted him fired.

Blazek may be a good OL coach, but there just isn't B1G caliber talent there. It's blatantly obvious against good B1G defenses. They're completely overmatched.

As far as the basketball staff is concerned, I'll reserve judgement until the perimeter shooting gets better.
 
It really is comparing apples to oranges here. Football program is much more complex that a basketball program. The perception right now is that Pikiell is the right guy and Ash is the wrong guy and Pikiell has the program in the right direction and Ash does not. As a basketball 1st fan I'd like to think that is reality with Pikiell, but I can't say with high confidence.

Keep in mind Pikiell is 6-30 in B1G play and in Year 3 we will be predicted to finish last again. Pikiell's batting average with regards to recruiting hasn't been very good when looking at actual games (I know sample size is small and probably not fair to analyze someone only in job 2.4 years).

Both, in my eyes, have made mistakes. Pikiell doesn't cut bait with Jordan recruits and as a result finishes last in year 1 and year 2 and enters year 3 in rebuilding mode (although I believe foundation has been built, very important). I don't follow FB, but it sounds like Ash has fouled up direction of the offense going from spread to pro style and as a result has to start a QB not ready.

Really think there should be no comparisons because both are work in progress. I think our basketball coach is great and I know he is the type of guy I'd send my kid to and I have great hope he is the one. Too early yet to write Ash off.

EDIT....I thought this was on the FB site
 
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Pike is ahead because he has a vision, hired staff with great resumes to help promote that vision, recruited to that vision, and has been pushing the team in practice toward that one vision.

Ash has hit the reset button on the offense twice, and has hired three OCs so far without any recent experience in that role. So while the defense should (supposedly) be in their third season of a rebuild, the offense is really closer to being in their first season of a rebuild.
 
Devil's advocate here....

Year 3 we have no PG and Year 4 we finally get one.

My argument, which can easily be argued against, is that Pikiell had his Ash moment not rebuilding knowing you had a volatile and flawed player manning the most important position.

I see the light at the end of the tunnel, but please let's not think we are anywhere near out of the tunnel. I go to FB games, but don't follow all that closely. I know we are in the tunnel. Right now that's about all I know.
 
Devil's advocate here....

Year 3 we have no PG and Year 4 we finally get one.

My argument, which can easily be argued against, is that Pikiell had his Ash moment not rebuilding knowing you had a volatile and flawed player manning the most important position.

I see the light at the end of the tunnel, but please let's not think we are anywhere near out of the tunnel. I go to FB games, but don't follow all that closely. I know we are in the tunnel. Right now that's about all I know.

Even with the PG situation, Pike has laid a lot of infrastructure in place already and has had consistency of staff and vision from his first season. That will pay dividends, as a player like Mulcahy will be able to plug into something that exists and has been built for 3 seasons already. We also have more depth than we've had for a very long time. Although we don't have the elite level players that some of our competitors do, we have real competition for minutes and what looks to be serviceable backups in many areas. There's actual hope that Year 4 will be when we have a fully stocked roster ready to turn the corner.

Ash has ripped out his offensive infrastructure twice so far, and we've started at square one again in his third season. The defense has also struggled to build any sort of depth, which was exacerbated by the players involved in the credit card fraud scheme. There's very little hope that we're going to somehow turn the corner next year - with an offense going into Year 2, and a thin defense that's losing a lot of key contributors.
 
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The moment Coach Pikiell loses a game folks don't believe he should lose he will receive the same message board treatment Coach Ash is receiving now. Of that I have zero doubt.

I am almost certain that both of those things will happen at some point this year.

I don’t know what to expect this year. My guess that we will take a step backwards defensively which means we need to take 2 steps forward offensively. From a pure statistical standpoint we will have bad shooting nights. We will lose most nights against almost all our opponents when we have our D or F shooting nights.

If u turn the ball over countless times in football you will lose against all non Texas State teams.
 
It's impossible to tell what's going to happen until we see the newcomers. We can read into practice reports but until we see Kiss, Mathis, Harper, Carter, McConnell, and Johnson in action there's no way of knowing.
 
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The moment Coach Pikiell loses a game folks don't believe he should lose he will receive the same message board treatment Coach Ash is receiving now. Of that I have zero doubt.

Let’s not forget Stonyford last year, and 3-15 in B1G. I like Pike, but as GRF stated we still have a steep cliff to climb.
 
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I am almost certain that both of those things will happen at some point this year.

I don’t know what to expect this year. My guess that we will take a step backwards defensively which means we need to take 2 steps forward offensively. From a pure statistical standpoint we will have bad shooting nights. We will lose most nights against almost all our opponents when we have our D or F shooting nights.

If u turn the ball over countless times in football you will lose against all non Texas State teams.

My posting has become much less frequent as the "Message Board" has become its own micro version of all other forms of social media. 300MM people talking to hear themselves speak and 0 people actually listening.

I enjoy reading the articles the folks on this site write and I enjoy following(and not commenting much) on recruiting.

As a real estate developer I have zero interest in hearing non-industry folks' opinions on how I should build my buildings. And as a donor I would hope Mr. Hobbs feels the same way about his athletic department.
 
I feel like compiling a list of all things that can and are likely to occur in a given 2 to 3 game stretch with regard to the basketball team, both individually and as a team. Things that 80%+ of fans would agree probably happens over the course of the year. In September everyone is rational, but when expected bad things happen and lead to losses in November thru March the narrative changes.

Few examples
most likely we will have an issue finding a player take a shot in a big spot
our lack of a player with a great handle will hurt us
some of our newer players will most likely have defensive issues at times
freshmen will hit walls

When we lose a late season B1G home game to a 2-13 team by 1 in a game where Mathis played 15 minutes and scored 2 points on 1-11 shooting, down 1 with the ball and 22 seconds we took a 25 foot contested shot with 2 seconds left on the shot clock, some dude who averaged 5 PPG went off and scored 25 and couldn't be stopped and Geo turned the ball over 5 times in the 1st half with light pressure.

Board will say Pikiell couldn't get his team motivated and he really isn't that good of a recruiter. Where was this great staff of assistants with a game plan. We got outcoached and quite frankly the other team wanted it more.
 
Even with the PG situation, Pike has laid a lot of infrastructure in place already and has had consistency of staff and vision from his first season. That will pay dividends, as a player like Mulcahy will be able to plug into something that exists and has been built for 3 seasons already. We also have more depth than we've had for a very long time. Although we don't have the elite level players that some of our competitors do, we have real competition for minutes and what looks to be serviceable backups in many areas. There's actual hope that Year 4 will be when we have a fully stocked roster ready to turn the corner.

Ash has ripped out his offensive infrastructure twice so far, and we've started at square one again in his third season. The defense has also struggled to build any sort of depth, which was exacerbated by the players involved in the credit card fraud scheme. There's very little hope that we're going to somehow turn the corner next year - with an offense going into Year 2, and a thin defense that's losing a lot of key contributors.
 
I don’t know what to expect this year. My guess that we will take a step backwards defensively which means we need to take 2 steps forward offensively.

Why do we take a step back in D? Pike values D, so he is recruiting looking for D, right? And he is bringing in more length, which should help with D. And he and his staff have taught the D and emphasize D in practice. There is more competition for playing time, so kids can’t take off plays. So why does the D have to decline this year?
 
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Why do we take a step back in D? Pike values D, so he is recruiting looking for D, right? And he is bringing in more length, which should help with D. And he and his staff have taught the D and emphasize D in practice. There is more competition for playing time, so kids can’t take off plays. So why does the D have to decline this year?

Young teams almost always struggle with defense.
 
My posting has become much less frequent as the "Message Board" has become its own micro version of all other forms of social media. 300MM people talking to hear themselves speak and 0 people actually listening.

I enjoy reading the articles the folks on this site write and I enjoy following(and not commenting much) on recruiting.

As a real estate developer I have zero interest in hearing non-industry folks' opinions on how I should build my buildings. And as a donor I would hope Mr. Hobbs feels the same way about his athletic department.

What an insightful and compelling comment.
 
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Why do we take a step back in D? Pike values D, so he is recruiting looking for D, right? And he is bringing in more length, which should help with D. And he and his staff have taught the D and emphasize D in practice. There is more competition for playing time, so kids can’t take off plays. So why does the D have to decline this year?
I agree. As much as people note that we're turning the roster over, we have 5 guys coming back that played significant minutes under pike, along with two others that have been here a year waiting to play. That's seven guys indoctrinated into the culture of the program along with 4 guys that are highly touted recruits.

Corey was great, but a culture of defense and rebounding has more to do with a program
 
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Young teams almost always struggle with defense.

I think you should look a little deeper into the composition of this team. Just one example of some deeper thought is that two of your “young” players have been practicing under this coaching staff for over a year.
 
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I think you should look a little deeper into the composition of this team. Just one example of some deeper thought is that two of your “young” players have been practicing under this coaching staff for over a year.
Geo will not be as good on the ball as Corey, but hopefully his D improves as a Soph in this program. He had some good steals in the conference tournament. The real hope is that Doucoure improved his D enough to be effective and to stay on the floor.
 
Pike has recruited better than Ash, had some good wins, and it just feels like the program is going to get better. You also get the feeling that Pike loves Rutgers and wants to stay long term. He's from the Northeast and knows the territory. With Ash, most of the recruiting battles he wins are against MAC teams, UMass, Old Dominion and Temple. And I can't understand for the life of me why he doesn't emphasize recruiting Florida. From day one, I always thought that if Ash had success, he would be out of here at the first better opportunity. Some from other parts of the country can adapt to the Northeast. It just feels like Ash is a fish out of water.
 
I think you should look a little deeper into the composition of this team. Just one example of some deeper thought is that two of your “young” players have been practicing under this coaching staff for over a year.

I understand that, and our length will mitigate some problems. But guys without Big Ten experience are going to struggle at times defending Big Ten players.

By the way, our defense has been kind of overrated these last two seasons because of the crap non-conference schedule. While only four Big Ten teams rated higher than us in overall defensive efficiency, eight teams ranked ahead of us in conference-only defensive efficiency. Playing teams like East Carolina, Cleveland State, and Coppin State, who couldn't throw a beach ball in the ocean, made our final numbers look better than how we actually performed.
 
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Pike has recruited better than Ash, had some good wins, and it just feels like the program is going to get better. You also get the feeling that Pike loves Rutgers and wants to stay long term. He's from the Northeast and knows the territory. With Ash, most of the recruiting battles he wins are against MAC teams, UMass, Old Dominion and Temple. And I can't understand for the life of me why he doesn't emphasize recruiting Florida. From day one, I always thought that if Ash had success, he would be out of here at the first better opportunity. Some from other parts of the country can adapt to the Northeast. It just feels like Ash is a fish out of water.

You can't say that yet. We haven't had a Pike recruit finish a complete season playing at the level of a B1G starter. Stars and expectations mean NOTHING to me.
 
I understand that, and our length will mitigate some problems. But guys without Big Ten experience are going to struggle at times defending Big Ten players.

By the way, our defense has been kind of overrated these last two seasons because of the crap non-conference schedule.

Last year in conference play we gave up 1.054 points per possession. B1G average was 1.053. I think I'd take that.
 
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I agree. As much as people note that we're turning the roster over, we have 5 guys coming back that played significant minutes under pike, along with two others that have been here a year waiting to play. That's seven guys indoctrinated into the culture of the program along with 4 guys that are highly touted recruits.

Corey was great, but a culture of defense and rebounding has more to do with a program

I agree with this post to an extent -- I do think the five returning players will help keep the defense solid -- but what you're missing here is the fact that there are going to be FIVE brand new players, including four true freshmen, plus the two players who redshirted last year (Johnson, Kiss) who have never played in the Big Ten. That's a lot of players to incorporate into playing defense the way Pike wants. I have to think there will be issues with TEAM defense because many of the guys are learning how to play Pike's defense.

The other part of "defense" is REBOUNDING. We lost our best front court rebounder (Freeman) and our two best backcourt rebounders (Sanders, Williams). I have to think that our defense will suffer because the rebounding percentages will probably take a step back this year.
 
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You can't say that yet. We haven't had a Pike recruit finish a complete season playing at the level of a B1G starter. Stars and expectations mean NOTHING to me.

This is a weird take to me... it's actually TWO weird takes. One thing I want my coach to do is to target a well-regarded player that other high-major schools are also targeting, and convince him to come here. Pikiell has shown the ability to do that (Mathis and Mulcahy). Ash was able to get a couple four-stars early on (Melton and Clark) but they were a drop in the bucket given the sizes of football classes.

Not say Pikiell an ace recruiter. Pikiell had two bad recruiting takes his first two years. Bullock was either desperation or trying to make inroads in the NJ HS scene, either of which is understandable. I still don't get Souf and never well. He's also missed on guys he wanted like Strickland in HS recruiting and others in transfer recruiting. But I'm way happier with his recruiting than Ash's.

Second of all... Geo Baker absolutely played to the level of a Big Ten starter last year. To say otherwise is ridiculous, to me. Eugene Omoruyi arguably did as well.

Last year in conference play we gave up 1.054 points per possession. B1G average was 1.053. I think I'd take that.

Now that I agree with. I just wanted to illustrate how much playing awful-shooting teams in non-conference helped our overall defensive numbers. Granted, one could also make the case that thirteen other B1G teams got to face an awful-shooting Rutgers team which helped their numbers, but that's a smaller effect.
 
I agree with this post to an extent -- I do think the five returning players will help keep the defense solid -- but what you're missing here is the fact that there are going to be FIVE brand new players, including four true freshmen, plus the two players who redshirted last year (Johnson, Kiss) who have never played in the Big Ten. That's a lot of players to incorporate into playing defense the way Pike wants. I have to think there will be issues with TEAM defense because many of the guys are learning how to play Pike's defense.

The other part of "defense" is REBOUNDING. We lost our best front court rebounder (Freeman) and our two best backcourt rebounders (Sanders, Williams). I have to think that our defense will suffer because the rebounding percentages will probably take a step back this year.

I think Kiss and Johnson will have a leg up, as they've been part of practices and have been coached for a year within Pike's system with his expectations. Yes, they haven't done it at the B1G level yet - but Kiss has had Div-I experience before RU, too, so he's not as green as Johnson. Carter is also a Juco, so he has had more on-court experience than the freshmen coming in.

The potential defensive liabilities will be with the three true freshmen - Mathis, McConnell, and Harper. We've heard some good noises coming out of practice about Mathis' defense - but they'll have the biggest adjustment to make coming out of HS.

Looking at defense by position:
Guard - We lose Sanders and Williams, who were both upperclassmen and some of our stronger defenders on the perimeter. But we also no longer have to rely on Mensah and Dadika for about 8 min/game at the PG spot, either. Baker returns, and Kiss as a RS Soph with a year at RU under his belt, but we also add Mathis/McConnell as true freshman. I'd imagine we'll take a step back a bit defensively at the guard spots as the newcomers get up to speed. We have more length, but lose Sanders' footspeed to keep up with penetrating guards, too.

Wing - We lose Bullock/Williams. Bullock was a defensive liability, and Williams didn't play a ton at wing last year. I'd expect Thiam to continue to improve next year, and we'll see Harper and minutes from Kiss at this spot. Don't see a big fall off on defense here.

Bigs - We swap Freeman/Sa with Carter/Johnson, and bring back Omoruyi/Doucoure/Doorson. Losing Freeman is a double edged sword - he was a great rebounder, but struggled at times on defense against bigger bodies. Sa was a solid defender, too. Omoruyi was probably our best defender last year, and will likely be seeing more minutes. I'd expect Doucoure/Doorson to improve from last year, too, based on experience and health respectively. Remains to be seen what Carter/Johnson will bring, but I don't see a big step back on defense here. Maybe in rebounding - but Freeman's boards might get spread out across more positions than just the PF spot.
 
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Two B1G tourney wins last year was a great accomplishment. Player effort and coaching accumen. Those two games give me hope for the future.
 
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Second of all... Geo Baker absolutely played to the level of a Big Ten starter last year. To say otherwise is ridiculous, to me. Eugene Omoruyi arguably did as well.

https://scarletknights.com/documents/2017/12/3/MBBConferenceOnlyStats.pdf

He played 32+ MPG as the starting 2 guard and averaged only 9.4PPG. He shot 32.2% from the field.

Eugene is not a guy you want playing more than 15 minutes (unless there is a dramatic improvement offensively and rebounding).

The reality is, and no one wants to believe this, we have to significantly upgrade all positions to compete in this league. The players that played last year with slight improvement on an annual basis doesn't really move the needle.
 
Loved the efforts last year against Michigan State (twice), Purdue (twice), Seton Hall and of course the B1G Tournament run at MSG. I don't mind the losses as much when the team goes all out and each player gives it everything he has.

I have huge hope that Pike turns this around. Similar to Ash, Pike came in after a disasterous 3 years under Jordan. Even in Pike's first year, you could point to the huge improvements in defense and rebounding, statistically and via the eyes test.

I have no doubt that Pike is the right coach to lead us to Tournament play. I don't have the same opinion of Ash.
 
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