Football vs Basketball Coaching

[dkostus]

https://scarletknights.com/documents/2017/12/3/MBBConferenceOnlyStats.pdf

He played 32+ MPG as the starting 2 guard and averaged only 9.4PPG. He shot 32.2% from the field.

Eugene is not a guy you want playing more than 15 minutes (unless there is a dramatic improvement offensively and rebounding).

The reality is, and no one wants to believe this, we have to significantly upgrade all positions to compete in this league. The players that played last year with slight improvement on an annual basis doesn't really move the needle.

Really hard to agree with you on Eugene after watching his development last year, what he did when he came back from injury, and hearing reports about him once again being the most improved player on the team.

In general, do I want a guy that was a 2* recruit and august signee ever starting on my team? No. In this specific situation, is Eugene a Big Ten starter and someone I certainly want playing 20-25/mpg? Yes... his development has been astonishing. If its continued as reported, how could we not want him playing more than 15/mpg?

Also, from your link, he had 7.5/ppg and 4.6/rpg as a soph in 20/mpg? That does not seem bad. Also 46% from the floor and 68% free throw percentage

 

[Scarlet83]

https://scarletknights.com/documents/2017/12/3/MBBConferenceOnlyStats.pdf

He played 32+ MPG as the starting 2 guard and averaged only 9.4PPG. He shot 32.2% from the field.

Eugene is not a guy you want playing more than 15 minutes (unless there is a dramatic improvement offensively and rebounding).

The reality is, and no one wants to believe this, we have to significantly upgrade all positions to compete in this league. The players that played last year with slight improvement on an annual basis doesn't really move the needle.

https://scarletknights.com/documents/2017/12/3/MBBConferenceOnlyStats.pdf

He played 32+ MPG as the starting 2 guard and averaged only 9.4PPG. He shot 32.2% from the field.

Eugene is not a guy you want playing more than 15 minutes (unless there is a dramatic improvement offensively and rebounding).

The reality is, and no one wants to believe this, we have to significantly upgrade all positions to compete in this league. The players that played last year with slight improvement on an annual basis doesn't really move the needle.

You are a very tough grader, Greene. I use the eye test, not only statistics. Geo was given a lot of responsibility as a Freshman, with a limited surrounding cast, and he played very well. His stats probably suffered because he also was sick for a stretch (the flu sucked last winter...remember?). In my view, being at every home game except two, he played like a strong 4 star recruit. Eye test.

Yes, we need to upgrade our talent and continue to coach them up. I think Pike has done that and I expect he and the staff will continue to do that. Again, the eye test.

 

[Scarlet83]

Really hard to agree with you on Eugene after watching his development last year, what he did when he came back from injury, and hearing reports about him once again being the most improved player on the team.

In general, do I want a guy that was a 2* recruit and august signee ever starting on my team? No. In this specific situation, is Eugene a Big Ten starter and someone I certainly want playing 20-25/mpg? Yes... his development has been astonishing. If its continued as reported, how could we not want him playing more than 15/mpg?

Also, from your link, he had 7.5/ppg and 4.6/rpg as a soph in 20/mpg? That does not seem bad. Also 46% from the floor and 68% free throw percentage

I can’t like this post about Eugene enough. That guy is blossoming right in front of us. And Pike was the only guy to see his potential and develop the heck out of Eugene.

This is also part of the eye test. Pike is the man! And our Asst coaches rock!

 

[rutgersac88]

You can't say that yet. We haven't had a Pike recruit finish a complete season playing at the level of a B1G starter. Stars and expectations mean NOTHING to me.

He definitely recruited better so far. As far as developing players, that's yet to be determined, but some of the underrated guys like Eugene have shown improvement.

 

[RUChoppin]

https://scarletknights.com/documents/2017/12/3/MBBConferenceOnlyStats.pdf

He played 32+ MPG as the starting 2 guard and averaged only 9.4PPG. He shot 32.2% from the field.

As a freshman, Geo was the 23rd highest scoring guard in the Big Ten last year at 10.8 ppg, scoring more than the 2nd guard on 7 of the 13 other Big Ten teams. He is one of just three freshmen in the Top 25 scoring guards in the conference, behind Trent Frazier (12.5, Illinois) and Brad Davison (12.1, Wisconsin).

I can't find a full breakdown of all B1G players in conference games only.

Baker's numbers did suffer at the end of the regular season after he got the flu. He missed the OSU game on 2/20, and then scored just 3 pts on 1/10 shooting over the next two games before bouncing back in the tournament. Up to that point in conference play, he'd been averaging 10.4 ppg on 33.5% shooting. Once healthy, he averaged 14.3 ppg in 25.7 min on 45.5% shooting at MSG.

I'd say he played to the level of a Big Ten starter last year - and did so as a freshman. Looking forward to seeing him grow this year and next.

 

[RUChoppin]

Eugene is not a guy you want playing more than 15 minutes (unless there is a dramatic improvement offensively and rebounding).

As to Eugene, he does need to improve his offense and rebounding. He's already arguably the best defender on the team, and is a charge-taking machine with his footwork and positioning.

Still, as a sophomore, he scored 7.9 ppg with 5.0 rpg. That puts him at 25th in the conference for forwards in scoring (10th among underclassmen) and 21st in rebounding (also 10th among underclassmen). When adjusting for minutes played (and looking only at players who played at least 15 min/g), he's 23rd among forwards in scoring and 19th in rebounds.

I don't know why we'd want to limit him to 15 min. Even a modest uptick in scoring and rebounding as an upperclassman would put him right in the middle of the pack for Big Ten starters. Only 15 forwards in the conference averaged at least 9 pts/6 rbs last year - and I think that's a realistic target for Omoruyi next year.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I like Eugene and Geo a LOT. They fit exactly in to the program I want to see being built. I just get a little anxious when people are pitting Ash vs. Pikiell and say Pike is doing it while Ash is not. Getting Duocore and Mathis and Mulcahy is great. I need to see production on the court and play leading to wins before getting credit. Eugene is great for the program, but to get this program to move ahead offensive production is necessary from the 4 spot. We also need our 2 guard (who for this year is 1 guard) to be consistent. Can't shoot 30% and score 9 PPG and expect to win B1G games.

 

[RUChoppin]

The challenge is that while Baker and Omoruyi are definitely "Big Ten starter" quality players, imo... are they ready to take the leap to "two best players on a Big Ten team" status? Because they're not there yet - and other starters around the conference with their stats are usually backing up a couple stars, rather than being the focal point.

Every Big Ten team last year had one player who averaged at least 14.6 ppg - is Baker ready to be that guy?
Every Big Ten team (but Rutgers) had a second highest scorer with at least 12.0 ppg - is Omoruyi ready to be that guy, or do we need to look to a newcomer like Mathis?
Every Big Ten team (but Illinois and Nebraska) had one player who averaged at least 6.8 rpg - is Omoruyi ready to be that guy?

That's the bigger question for me. They may be starters in the 3rd-5th most productive player sense... but can they be the two primary players on the team? I don't know.

 

[RUChoppin]

I like Eugene and Geo a LOT. They fit exactly in to the program I want to see being built. I just get a little anxious when people are pitting Ash vs. Pikiell and say Pike is doing it while Ash is not.

Pike hasn't made it there yet in terms of wins, but it's clear to see he has a plan and is adding the pieces to the puzzle he needs to see improvement. It feels like we're consistently building toward something, and that the future is bright.

Ash also hasn't made it there in terms of wins, but the plan is fuzzy right now and we haven't seen the pieces added that make it look like we'll see improvement any time soon. There doesn't seem to be any consistency in approach and it's hard to see those small, gradual improvements that set a team up for future success.

QB is a good example. Ash has brought in seven QBs to the program so far over 3 years (Allen, Oden, Bolin, Lewis, Flacco, Sitkowski, Chapman), and none have been able to get the offense going - and he may very well be back to relying on the 3rd string guy from the last coach. This year's starter has 1 TD and 7 INTs so far.

He's brought in three different OCs across three years with three different systems, and none have been able to make the offense work. Over three years with the same DC and recruiting to the same system on defense... we're still unable to tackle or get pressure on the QB, and just gave up 55 points to one of the few P5 teams that was behind us when he took over.

Right now it feels like Pike is building for the future, and Ash is fighting for his job.

And I'm aware that this basketball season is likely to be rough, and may be a step back - and that there will be bad losses that will have this board screaming - but I still think the overall trajectory for basketball gives the perception that Pike is doing better than Ash. Of course, too, it might just be that it's so dark for football right now that the basketball program looks bright by comparison - especially since they're currently undefeated this season, lol

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

That is your perception. Again this is all devil's advocate because I am a huge fan of Pikiell!!!!

We are in Year 3 and there is not a point guard on the roster.
Ash has a better win % in B1G

Put a gun to my head and I believe exactly what you do. I also realize we are analyzing basketball rationally and football emotionally. That all changes once games are played in basketball.

 

[kcg88]

One thing that needs to stop this season are the long two-point jump shots. Get to the rim or get behind the line. That's a coaching thing I'll be looking for.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

One thing that needs to stop this season are the long two-point jump shots. Get to the rim or get behind the line. That's a coaching thing I'll be looking for.

20.2% of our points came from 3 pointers...348th.
We shot 3s at 29.6%....346th
There are only 351 teams.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out how to improve our lowly offense. Beating a dead horse we will be better offensively next year....stealing a quote. "Take it to the Bank." The guys that had the ball in their hands last year were not efficient here.

Our improved offense will be because we will attempt to get it to the rim less.

 

[RUChoppin]

That is your perception. Again this is all devil's advocate because I am a huge fan of Pikiell!!!!

We are in Year 3 and there is not a point guard on the roster.
Ash has a better win % in B1G

Put a gun to my head and I believe exactly what you do. I also realize we are analyzing basketball rationally and football emotionally. That all changes once games are played in basketball.

I think there are plenty of rational reasons to think that the football rebuild is behind the basketball rebuild (see: musical OCs and offensive philosophies).

On an emotional level, I'd put basketball far ahead of football - since it currently feels like the wheels have come off the bus in football. On a rational level, I'd still put it ahead of football, though, because football is still in "year one" of the offensive rebuild for the third time.

 

[Greene Rice FIG]

I really don't follow football enough to really come to any conclusion like that.

What I do know is that we are extremely young in football, have been decimated by injuries and suspensions. If you consider that and a QB not ready to play I think it is easy to see where we are. Maybe we are on track to be successful in FB in 2020?

I am not happy about the suspension part...AT ALL.

Quite frankly I really don't know what to expect in basketball next year. I am very intrigued and excited for the season. With the exception of Eugene I see us having all new players in new positions. Geo is a PG, Issa is an offensive player potentially freed, and everyone else is brand new.

 

[RUChoppin]

I really don't follow football enough to really come to any conclusion like that.

What I do know is that we are extremely young in football, have been decimated by injuries and suspensions. If you consider that and a QB not ready to play I think it is easy to see where we are. Maybe we are on track to be successful in FB in 2020?

I am not happy about the suspension part...AT ALL.

Quite frankly I really don't know what to expect in basketball next year. I am very intrigued and excited for the season. With the exception of Eugene I see us having all new players in new positions. Geo is a PG, Issa is an offensive player potentially freed, and everyone else is brand new.

We're young in football, yes - which is a problem that will hopefully improve a touch next year as the sophomores become juniors. One big problem has been consistency on the offensive side, though.

Year 1 - Drew Mehringer and the spread option. Recruited mobile QBs and players who could go four and five wide.
Year 2 - Jerry Kill and the conservative pro style, moved RB coach to WRs, hired new RB coach. Recruited pro style QBs and players geared to run between the tackles.
Year 3 - John McNulty and the pro style, along with 5 assistant coaching changes in the offseason. Continued pro style recruiting so far.

Lots of shuffling, little consistency, continually changing needs in recruiting... three new beginnings for the offense. Mix that with only two upperclassmen on the offensive two deep who will touch the ball (TE and backup RB), and a true freshman QB. There's only one offensive coach left that Ash came in with (Blazek).

***

Contrast that with Pike.... same staff, same philosophy, same recruiting goals, with what appears to be the right pieces in place for 2019-20 to start to make some moves.

Really hoping that the football team can somehow pull off a win this Saturday from a damage control and narrative perspective... but we'll still be two years behind where we hoped we'd be when Ash was first hired.

 

[ruready4somefootball]