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For those that say the coach doesnt matter

ruman

Heisman Winner
Gold Member
Nov 30, 2001
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Let's look at Mike Rice. He came here in 2010 with a mess on his hands. The two top players transfered out. He managed to get a ton out of his 2010-2011 team and just missed being .500 that year in a very tough Big East. He also recruited his butt of and came up with some of the best players to come to RU in a while. In year 2, we knocked off a bunch of teams, faultered a bit, and were set up for big year in 2012-2013. Then that summer, everything began to unravel. Gil Biruta transfered. A bunch of top recruits that we were leading for began to fade away and go elsewhere. Word hit the street (leaked by Eric Murdock) that Rice was an out of control, and that a tape existed that would eventually bring him down. That tape was discussed on this board for months. All the mometum he had built evaporated. A mid season suspension was bungled and eventually the national scandal hit that killed his career.

Why rehash this. Well for almost two years, Mike Rice was transforming this program. From sheer will and drive, the guy was making things happen here that hadnt happened for years. He did all this without facilities. The problem is that aside from turning the program around, he only had one other job - not to become another Bobby Gonzales. Willard was hired over Rice precisely due the fact the SHU didnt trust Rice. TP hired him, but his out of control behavior, what kept him from SHU, was not properly monitored and kept in check. Tie this all together with the horrible hire of Eric Murdock, and this whole disaster had the ending that we all know.

To me it shows that the right coach can change things. If Rice was properly managed in his early months, he would have finished the job here. He turned out to be the wrong guy because of his personality flaw.

I just think this tells me that this arguement that it doesnt matter whose coaching here is way off. Eddie Jordan was the proper replacement for Rice. After that scandal, our program was stuck in the mud for at least two years. Jordan was an adult who came in and got us off the front pages. However, year 3 should begin the rebirth of the program. And EJ has done nothing in his first two years to show he can do this. Next year has all the makings of a disaster. While Jordan may have been the right coach coming out of the scandal, he is not the right coach post-scandal. Any time you hire a guy that would not be a candidate for a D-1 job anywhere else in America, you took a gamble. This five year contract we signed with him seems not to contain a buyout (like Flood's did). Thats bad news. So while our athletic department needs to fund raise for a practice facility, they better also be ready in case year 3 is as bad I fear. Because we better be in a position to negotiate a buyout financially. We cannot afford 3 - 5 more years of this type of program.
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Coach definitely does matter. Rice wouldn't of been able to coach in a sustainable way without getting himself into some kind of trouble.

I hope EJ gets it done next year. For right now, he is our HC. We don't have the money to buy him out so hopefully he brings a better product next year.
 
Calhoun and Beiheim have said time and again they never would have been successful at UConn and Syracuse without getting some top tier recruits that got their programs moving forward.Rutgers signature recruits have transferred and there was no backfilling in talent.
 
Coaching matters when you have close to competitive spending and facilities as those whom you compete against day in and day out have. Rutgers has neither.

At Rutgers, the coach doesn't matter. Too many other negative factors. Mike Rice had a losing record and threw basketballs at players. Not sure I would use him as an example of winning at Rutgers.
 
Need to get lucky in recruiting. Sports Illustrated this week and the article on Jimmy Butler. From Houston and not heavily recruited. Buzz Williams saw him and he worked on his game. Now scoring 20 points a game for the Bulls.
 
Rice's subsequent years were trending in the wrong direction. I would not be using him as the poster child for what a good coach can do. With the transfers that were going to occur under his watch, we may have been in the same place as we are now.
 
Rice definitely had a great 1st year of coaching (it helped having seniors like Mitchell & Coburn hungry to win), and a great 1st recruiting cycle. However, I think the cracks in the foundation were starting to show even before the scandal broke. For example, Dane Miller basically refused to score in the last month of his career in protest to the coach. I don't think RIce was fair to Biruta (or Kone), and he let Eli do whatever he wanted on the court without consequence.

I think we need a young dynamic coach that plays an aggressive style. The NBA sets, the NBA substitution patterns...I'm sick of them.

I thought Crean took EJ to school yesterday. Fresh legs, great offensive sets (including little details like actually setting proper, effective screens - our guys barely even pretend to set a screen). Yes Indiana shot very well & their players are more athletic, but I thought Crean's coaching was clearly superior. And it was not the first time EJ was outcoached. We lost the Michigan game because of Beilein vs EJ.
 
Coaches like Crean look a lot smarter when the play they draw up is a splash from 3, as opposed to a clank off the rim.
 
Things started trending the wrong way when the word hit that Rice was damaged goods. My point is not to say that Rice shouldn't have been fired. He should have in fact been fired in December instead of being suspended. I'm just saying that an aggressive connected coach can put us in a much better spot than we are today. And that coach does not have to make $2 million a year. I'll give you the. Hurley's, Maisello, Cluess, and Lonegan to start.
 
The names change, the results stay the same. So does our investment in the program.
 
Originally posted by Caliknight:

Coaches like Crean look a lot smarter when the play they draw up is a splash from 3, as opposed to a clank off the rim.
I agree to an extent, but I think their sets created more open looks & more open driving lanes. And at the very least, they made the defense work harder than vice versa.
 
Originally posted by Spare130:

Who the hell would say the coach doesnt matter?
No one. It's a bogus straw man argument to counter the point that it is going to take more than hiring one magical person to move this in the right direction.
 
Many, many questions and debates about both the Waters and Rice regimes. A lot centers on the learning curve and the ability to learn and adapt and change.

Both guys had the ability to move the program to a higher level. Whether they would have is open for debate?

Could the athletic department do more to monitor Rice?
Was Rice actually making changes (he was toning it down)?

Did Waters learn from recruiting mistakes and was willing to change and openly initially accept FHJ?
 
The Waters/Hill combo (even if Hill eventually left for a HC job) would have taken us to an elite level. Hill's recruiting was top notch along with Waters who is a great coach in general. Waters had the fan base more energized than ever and the RAC was sold out more often than not. People can say what they want about how he wasnt the right fit and he would rather coach in the mid west, but I am willing to bet if RU was serious about bball and we were getting the proper support it could have been a big help in him staying here.
 
Vanderbilt and Clemson have actually gotten better since RU played and beat both back in beginning of the season. It's nothing more than a program sticking to it's roots and getting their players to improve as the season moved forward.

Stallings is a top tier College coach at Vandy, in a league that is extremely competitive and has athletes at almost every school. They have a system that allows them to recruit the right type of player internationally or here in the states to offer something different for the targets they are recruiting. Brownell at Clemson is an extremely hard worker as well.

The difference between earlier in the season is Etou has not played at the level to help offset any off games by Jack. If Jack and Etou could function together, I think there would be less anxiety about the program on how they look offensively.

Rice and FHJ really didn't do a good job on coaching the offense for basketball and relied on stops or getting stops on defense....which is really the only formula to rebuild a program.

Eddie needs to get kids to defend and instead they don't run back on defense, there isn't a defined rotation to shorten minutes of the kids needed in the 2nd half and lack of roles in the rotation for the bench. These are the items that should happen when you rebuild.

I did read the Penn State and comments in the other thread about Pat Chambers and 15-54 in B1G over his 4 years so far....He has attempted to get Philly kids and others there, but PSU is a tougher sell than RU, even with a new building and PSU raking in money for 2 to 3 decades. It's really just coaching and effort, the facilities are an argument that doesn't apply to the bulk of the programs around the country.
 
Hawk,

I'd rather our issue be talent over coaching. My fear is a 60-year old coach doesn't change his spots this late in a career.
 
Originally posted by NewJerseyHawk:



Eddie needs to get kids to defend and instead they don't run back on defense, there isn't a defined rotation to shorten minutes of the kids needed in the 2nd half and lack of roles in the rotation for the bench. These are the items that should happen when you rebuild.
This is my biggest issue with Eddie and I am a big Eddie supporter.

As to the OP of course coaching matters. I think Rice was a pretty good HC and his first year here which included recruiting what looked to be a solid class that would join him in Year 2 was a great, encouraging start. He and his assistants were looking at a very good follow up class that would have possibly included Josh Hart and Kris Jenkins, but Murdock was secretly leaking details of the tape to these kids connections and it was lights out. Internally he had begun losing the existing team before the video came out. As you mentioned Biruta had already left. Eli was leaving video leak or not. Randall was leaning towards out. Seagears had become uncoachable. Half his kids from that initial "encouraging start" were gone, leaving or rebelling.

I liked Mike Rice, but reality is his three year tenure was more damaging to the program than 10 years of Fred Hill or Craig Littlepage would have been. I don't think he was or is a "bad guy", but he took us to depths I did not think imaginable (which is saying something as an RU basketball fan). I like the kids Eddie has recruited into the program and believe those kids will perform here. I think many of our fans are judging too harshly because they think think the clean up after the hurricane is taking too long. I disagree. It was going to take a while post Rice. And it was never going to be pretty.
 
Indiana and Iowa are solid teams. Both were unranked, but it doesn't matter. They are talented, at least as good as the best teams in last year's AAC with exception of Louisville.

With Mack, Jack, Etou, Mike Williams and Greg Lewis, are we 30-points worse than these two teams?
 
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