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Is this team uncoachable?

Good-Knight

All Conference
Jul 21, 2008
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One guy, best guy on the team, takes a lot of midrange shots that impress NBA front offices but are not strategically sound for today's college game Other guy, also best on team, takes over the game 10% of the time. Incontestable, but only 10% of the time. His downhill game is spectacular and other than clear out does not rely on teammates or coach's scheme. We can not pick and roll because we can't pick (offensive foul away from the basket is a triple negative on my sheet) and we can't effectively covert the roll. Takes time and polish to pull these off and that degree of skill is obsolete. We have promising athletes instead of crafty ballers. They block shots but they don't double in the corner.

These two guys, are only months away from high school. Before they got here, their selection in the NBA draft was already a given. How much a player is going to listen to a one-year-only head coach (much less assistants) in these circumstances is going to be limited. You don't know the number of people outside the program talking in these kids' ears. Their primary interest is in displaying their talent and not learning fundamental aspects of the college team game played at a higher/highest level. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking tough shots is not how you win basketball games.

Rutgers is not alone in the main complaint on transfers. Either they were on a team for 3 years and can't let go of their mid-tier coaching or they've been to 3 schools in 3 years and have never seen the benefit of really buying-in and listening to a coach to be a role player. Trust me, even walk-ons see themselves as superstars that just need to right circumstance to go supernova. Coaching this mindset to understand something like a switching scheme, takes more than a few weeks of summer practice.

Pike is a point guard turned coach. His level of complexity might not hold up in the era of one-and-dones and the transfer portal. In the guns for hire age, there is only so much you can do. Geo Baker is not walking through that door again. The job has changed since Pikes arrived. He is very intelligent and will make the adjustments. I bet he learned a lot this year...but at a tremendous foregone cost.

Martini is probably a smart kid, Princeton educated...on offense and defense half the time it looks like he is lost out there. Sommerville is out of position so much it's part of his playing style. Out of position is why we give up easy baskets and get clobbered on the board. It's position and using your fat ass to box out. I'm not seeing that. Latham is my favorite player on this team and he is going to have to go to summer school to unlearn a lot of what he learned this year.

J. Will, Acuff, Derkack, Davis are all probably not quite good enough for the B1G. A good game here or there but mostly out of control, not integrating in the offense or defense. They are the second, third, fourth and fifth reincarnation of Calvin Wooten. If just one of them had a breakout, we'd be looking at a much better result. That 4 rolls of the dice that crapped out. Bad luck is not bad coaching. (Of course that is the motto losers use too.)

College basketball used to be a coach's game. Why do you think K and Jay Wright gave it up? The current product depends a lot less on coaching, more on motivation and stripping down to a level of simplicity that makes everyone more comfortable. In the NCAA's I bet we see some teams outside the P5 that have unheralded seniors that played together for 4 years, make the glamorous teams look silly, because the old model was better.
 
One guy, best guy on the team, takes a lot of midrange shots that impress NBA front offices but are not strategically sound for today's college game Other guy, also best on team, takes over the game 10% of the time. Incontestable, but only 10% of the time. His downhill game is spectacular and other than clear out does not rely on teammates or coach's scheme. We can not pick and roll because we can't pick (offensive foul away from the basket is a triple negative on my sheet) and we can't effectively covert the roll. Takes time and polish to pull these off and that degree of skill is obsolete. We have promising athletes instead of crafty ballers. They block shots but they don't double in the corner.

These two guys, are only months away from high school. Before they got here, their selection in the NBA draft was already a given. How much a player is going to listen to a one-year-only head coach (much less assistants) in these circumstances is going to be limited. You don't know the number of people outside the program talking in these kids' ears. Their primary interest is in displaying their talent and not learning fundamental aspects of the college team game played at a higher/highest level. I've said it before and I'll say it again, taking tough shots is not how you win basketball games.

Rutgers is not alone in the main complaint on transfers. Either they were on a team for 3 years and can't let go of their mid-tier coaching or they've been to 3 schools in 3 years and have never seen the benefit of really buying-in and listening to a coach to be a role player. Trust me, even walk-ons see themselves as superstars that just need to right circumstance to go supernova. Coaching this mindset to understand something like a switching scheme, takes more than a few weeks of summer practice.

Pike is a point guard turned coach. His level of complexity might not hold up in the era of one-and-dones and the transfer portal. In the guns for hire age, there is only so much you can do. Geo Baker is not walking through that door again. The job has changed since Pikes arrived. He is very intelligent and will make the adjustments. I bet he learned a lot this year...but at a tremendous foregone cost.

Martini is probably a smart kid, Princeton educated...on offense and defense half the time it looks like he is lost out there. Sommerville is out of position so much it's part of his playing style. Out of position is why we give up easy baskets and get clobbered on the board. It's position and using your fat ass to box out. I'm not seeing that. Latham is my favorite player on this team and he is going to have to go to summer school to unlearn a lot of what he learned this year.

J. Will, Acuff, Derkack, Davis are all probably not quite good enough for the B1G. A good game here or there but mostly out of control, not integrating in the offense or defense. They are the second, third, fourth and fifth reincarnation of Calvin Wooten. If just one of them had a breakout, we'd be looking at a much better result. That 4 rolls of the dice that crapped out. Bad luck is not bad coaching. (Of course that is the motto losers use too.)

College basketball used to be a coach's game. Why do you think K and Jay Wright gave it up? The current product depends a lot less on coaching, more on motivation and stripping down to a level of simplicity that makes everyone more comfortable. In the NCAA's I bet we see some teams outside the P5 that have unheralded seniors that played together for 4 years, make the glamorous teams look silly, because the old model was better.
Excellent post
 
Pike gets paid $3.5 million to coach the team he constructed. If the team is “uncoachable” by definition that’s his failure as he is the architect of the roster.

Pike is the common denominator across every theory on why a team with two lottery picks is a dumpster fire.
💯
 
Personally, I think Ace has looked VERY coachable.

Dylan hard to comment on because he hasn’t really been full go in what, a month?

I just think it’s more about us not having a 5 and that’s the main issue.

Cliff on this team changes A LOT. I don’t blame Cliff, and I’m happy for him, but man what a bummer.
 
I don't see the evidence that the team is uncoachable or doesn't buy into coaching. Ace takes a lot of midrange shots because Pikiell doesn't realize he shouldn't be doing that.

Other than that I see two freshman who are good enough to be major pieces on a good team (and yes this includes Ace now who has improved dramatically but this unfortunately had coincided with Harper being unable to play effectively) and a bunch of other players who are emphatically not. Michigan State has 8 players that are better than our third best player and those players are not the ones who supposedly can't be coached because they are going to the NBA next year.
 
Interesting points.

Can’t be that enjoyable to have coached in a prior era and then this era would be thrust upon you. With regard to the points made ace seems like a tremendously nice kid.

But his shot selection is the worst I have ever seen on the college level. One has to believe that the coaching staff gives him some freedom to shoot but coaches him on using that freedom with selection. While he leads an amazing plays, he also leads in the amount of side backboard Shots that has ever been seen in college. I think Pike may have taken a little bit too seriously Calhoun’s off the cuff comments and if you have two horses, you should ride them. He was in a very difficult situation and gave them a whole bunch of freedom. It appears that at the end of the year in the beginning of the new year there was a renewed focus on defense that he likely wishes he had done earlier. The guy didn’t forget how to coach he’s in a situation that he has never been in before and frankly not too many have and the injuries and sickness have made that situation more difficult and yes, the person choices have only made it more difficult.

If someone says will give you two of the top five players and they’re there for one year you’ve gotta take that chance in retrospect, we may look back and say that not only was having these players not great for the one year they were here, but it set back the program because you didn’t develop skills in the players that are still here and you missed out other players who may have been here a few years and developing. That being said it was an opportunity that you had to take. It just sucks that it’s turned out the way it has.
 
You say "this team" in your subject, but I think you get at more of the root of the problem in your post. It's not about "this team" but "this environment".

The rules have changed such that it's very easy for any player to hit the ejector seat as soon as things get a little uncomfortable or as soon as they see a shiny thing somewhere else. No lost time for a transfer, no restrictions on transfer destinations, no release needed, unlimited transfers.... coupled with a massively inflated and almost entirely unregulated NIL market that's completely out of alignment with player value, driven entirely by boosters rather than any ROI from paying for a player's NIL rights.

It's very hard to build a consistent culture with upperclassmen when the environment actively encourages player movement between teams, unless you have tons of NIL cash to throw around to retain developing players which allows you to then bring in "project" players that aren't ready-made out-of-the-box.

It's hitting teams at all levels. Even mid/low-majors that might be a threat in the tournament.... you think Merrimack wouldn't have wanted to keep Derkack, or Eastern Michigan wouldn't have wanted Acuff back? These lower level programs are getting strip mined by the major conferences in exchange for castoffs. The Ivy League has been mostly unaffected... but even Wolf left for a Michigan payday while still having Ivy eligibility, which was precedent setting.

It's churn, churn, churn... unless you are able to retain your guys, which takes some combination of NIL $$$, legitimate expectation of postseason contention, and coaching cachet. Until there's some regulation (e.g., contractual obligations tied to NIL that require reimbursement if players leave before the end of the contract period), this new era is a massive shift to what it takes to be a successful coach at the collegiate level.
 
I don't see the evidence that the team is uncoachable or doesn't buy into coaching. Ace takes a lot of midrange shots because Pikiell doesn't realize he shouldn't be doing that.

Other than that I see two freshman who are good enough to be major pieces on a good team (and yes this includes Ace now who has improved dramatically but this unfortunately had coincided with Harper being unable to play effectively) and a bunch of other players who are emphatically not. Michigan State has 8 players that are better than our third best player and those players are not the ones who supposedly can't be coached because they are going to the NBA next year.

Exactly. What “coaching” is Ace not listening to?
I must have missed where the rest of the team is shooting 3s all game but Ace is shooting mid-range 2s and messing up the plan.

If anything, Ace is following the coaching perfectly.
Every year we are towards the bottom of the Big Ten in 3pt attempts.

Does anyone really think the staff is looking at advanced offensive analytics and telling the players where they should and should not be shooting based on their particular heat maps? Or getting players shots in the spots they excel at?
 
I don't see the evidence that the team is uncoachable or doesn't buy into coaching. Ace takes a lot of midrange shots because Pikiell doesn't realize he shouldn't be doing that.
Shooting 15 foot jump shots on a poor rebounding team? A blind man in the dark would see that as a bad route. Does Ace practice ball denial? Weakside help ? Does one of the best athletes get back first on D? Does he block passing lanes with his wingspan? Does he box out/ seal in? There are little things in the college game that aren't in the NBA game. Pike knows these things and has coached them for decades.
 
Bad luck isn’t bad coaching.
Correct.

But JWill, Davis and Derkack - all career sub 25% 3pt shooters - continuing to not provide offense consistently isn’t bad luck.
That’s bad planning.

It’s been said since March that relying on them to provide off-ball offense was a mistake.
 
Shooting 15 foot jump shots on a poor rebounding team? A blind man in the dark would see that as a bad route. Does Ace practice ball denial? Weakside help ? Does one of the best athletes get back first on D? Does he block passing lanes with his wingspan? Does he box out/ seal in? There are little things in the college game that aren't in the NBA game. Pike knows these things and has coached them for decades.
Yes but Ace has been here for 2/3rds of a season. If he stayed here 4 years I have no doubt he would play good Steve Pikiell defense. He doesn't fully get all of it yet.
 
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Also can’t over stress the importance of being healthy.

Have to believe we would have won several of these last few with a healthy 100 % Dylan.
Yes other schools have injuries but we are so dependent on Dylan.

Ace misses first few games which could have been used to gel, mesh, etc.

We were all watching Ogbole improve before our very eyes especially the rebounding.
And he’s out for the season.

Acuff, a top ten scorer was going to be our instant O off the bench.
Sadly he has never recovered from broken foot.
 
Sadly he has never recovered from broken foot.
No one who was familiar with his prior play has ever confirmed----Has he always been that slow OR is his movement now significantly different and remnants still of the injury?
 
No one who was familiar with his prior play has ever confirmed----Has he always been that slow OR is his movement now significantly different and remnants still of the injury

Million dollar question, but top 10 scorer in the country in a pretty good league.

Have to believe he was much better, healthy and in shape. Never know how athletes will respond to injuries or how severe the injuries are/were.
 
Maybe Pike just recruits low IQ players.

I can remember a few smart ones - RHJ, Geo, Cam. But most Pike players look lost on the court. We all know about the offense that appears to run off a playbook with a single blank page.

How often does a Rutgers center make a pass? Cliff averaged 0.7 assists per game at Rutgers. Lathan is at 0.5. Heck, Shaq did 1.7 in college and 2.5 in NBA.
 
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Plenty of reasons for our lousy 10-10 record:

- Portall misses/No legit 5-man (not enough NIL?)
- Injuries (Acuff, Ace, Dylan, Ogbole)
- Illness (Dylan)
- Scheduling/venues (KSU, Princeton, MSU)
- Pike trusting players (Grant too little, others too much)
- Over-reliance on freshmen
- Poor gameday coaching and substitutions

In the end I would not say our players are uncoachable. It’s more like a bad mix of players that lack cohesiveness.

Remember, no 2 players on this team have played a full season together. That might work if you have all juniors, seniors, and graduate guys, but we’re now playing 5 freshmen and starting 4 of them.

And yes, Pike is ultimately responsible for all of it, except the illness and injuries.
 
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Maybe Pike just recruits low IQ players.

I can remember a few smart ones - RHJ, Geo, Cam. But most Pike players look lost on the court. We all know about the offense that appears to run off a playbook with a single blank page.

How often does a Rutgers center make a pass? Cliff averaged 0.7 assists per game at Rutgers. Lathan is at 0.5. Heck, Shaq did 1.7 in college and 2.5 in NBA.
I saw one yesterday by Sommerville to Dercack.
 
I don’t necessarily know if team is uncoachable but the team has several players whose basketball IQ is not high.

When you see JMIke constantly hoisting 3s / JWill with his acrobatic antics / Somerville hoisting 20 footers and many others shooting low % shots - one does wonder about the ability of accountability and whether the coaching staff does preach enough about valuing the efficiency of shot attempts etc.

I still wonder whether players like Acuff / Martini / Hayes cam shoot 10 footers as it’s a rarity to see
 
I don’t necessarily know if team is uncoachable but the team has several players whose basketball IQ is not high.

When you see JMIke constantly hoisting 3s / JWill with his acrobatic antics / Somerville hoisting 20 footers and many others shooting low % shots - one does wonder about the ability of accountability and whether the coaching staff does preach enough about valuing the efficiency of shot attempts etc.

I still wonder whether players like Acuff / Martini / Hayes cam shoot 10 footers as it’s a rarity to see
BEP…the basketball players not having basketball IQ certainly calls into question whether their aggregate GPA that Pike is citing is due to taking only the easiest classes.

Shelby isn’t impressed with the basketball IQ or the GPA bragging.
 
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