Lathan Sommerville practicing

[Knight Owl]

Isn't that also our worst offensive 5?
Assuming Dylan and Ace are required, is there a worse offensive 5?

You double both Ace/Dylan and make JMike, Dortch and Ogbole beat you 3 on 1.
I might still take the defense.

That was kinda my point. The best defenders seem to be more limited offensively. JaMike can beat almost anyone off the dribble but finishing ability and the ability to make the pass are lacking. I’d rather see him Steve Nash it down low and keep the dribble and keep changing passing angles and eventually get the late assist as the defense recovers. Ace could be the beneficiary with dunks and layups or three point shooters with well trained puppies could get a sliccash!

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

That was kinda my point. The best defenders seem to be more limited offensively. JaMike can beat almost anyone off the dribble but finishing ability and the ability to make the pass are lacking. I’d rather see him Steve Nash it down low and keep the dribble and keep changing passing angles and eventually get the late assist as the defense recovers. Ace could be the beneficiary with dunks and layups or three point shooters with well trained puppies could get a sliccash!

I expect Davis to be used for trapping in the press. If we can turn teams over we are going to score a lot of points because of our defense.

 

[Tango Two]

 

[SC1221]

So ... I know no more than any on this Board, and less than some I am sure. But, having watched the team for a long time, and the highlight vids of the incoming players (I know, generally useless), here is how I see it (depth chart and minutes:

Guard - 2 Spots and 80 minutes:

Starter: Harper - 28 min
Starter: J Williams - 23-25 min (he has shown a propensity with his intensity to pick up fouls - and you want him full intensity, so resting him is good)

Acuff - 18 - 20 min (volume and spark scorer off the bench - kind of like Hyatt, but at Guard - not a great defender)
J. Davis - 10-12 min (defensive specialist and pure PG ... the best defender on the team, IMO, rivalling McConnell in defensive potential, albeit 6'2" not 6'7" ... with that defense HAS to have a role)

Forward - 2 Spots and 80 minutes:

Starter: Bailey - 28 min (some time at the "4" when RU plays smaller and faster and wants 3 guards or 2 guards and 2 wings)
Starter: Martini - 20 min (he is in the shoot the open 3 from the kick out or doubles on the perimeter ... may play a few spot minutes at Center in certain match ups, and if foul trouble requires)

Hayes - 10-12 min (pure shooter, like Martini - will come in FOR Martini at times)
Derkack - 15-18 min (not a great shooter, but a scorer, athletic and defensive player of the year in a weak conference as a Soph ... actually has some upside development because he is only a Junior ... way too turnover prone to be 1 of only 2 guards on the floor IMO)
Grant - Spot minutes (for toughness, rebounding, if foul trouble and need a stronger forward in besides Derkack or Hayes)

Center - 1 Spot and 40 Minutes:

Starter - Ogbole - 15 min (but only if shows improvement, in particular in hands- so he does not get so easily stripped or drop the ball - and in footwork so his fouls are reduced ... showed very good rebounding per minute, and best offensive rebounding per minute on the team last season, albeit in very limited minutes) ... at 15 mpg he might be able to average 3-4 ppg (mostly put backs or running the floor) and 5+ rpg, and decent post defense.

Sommerville - 22 min (maybe more if can stay out of foul trouble ... more minutes than Ogbole, but off the bench ... some advantages coming off the bench to play fresh against other teams' starter, or against other team's back-up)
UNKNOWN LAST PLAYER (Mikic?) - spot minutes
Martini - spot minutes

I do not see a role for Dortch this season, even though he is supposedly a better prospect than Grant - he really is a WF, and described as Mag-like on Defense with more and better offensive skills coming into college than Mag ... potential starter or major contributor 2 years from now after Bailey is gone ... my speculation is he would be better off red-shirting, but I have zero inside information or knowledge that RU has any intent to do so.

Just my 2 cents.

Dortch is most definitely not considered a better prospect than Grant. Grant did wayyyy more in a better AAU league.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Dortch is most definitely not considered a better prospect than Grant. Grant did wayyyy more in a better AAU league.

I don’t know much about either of them. AAU output is not necessarily an accurate metric though for assessing who can/will contribute earlier on a Pike team. By rhe way, the latter “winner” doesn’t necessarily correlate with long term potential either. Miller contributed as a role player for us as a frosh, for example. We might need someone in a deeper bench role who can come in and play lock down D. could be possible Dortch could play this role better than Grant even if Grant is the better overall player.

 

[Knight Owl]

I don’t know much about either of them. AAU output is not necessarily an accurate metric though for assessing who can/will contribute earlier on a Pike team. By rhe way, the latter “winner” doesn’t necessarily correlate with long term potential either. Miller contributed as a role player for us as a frosh, for example. We might need someone in a deeper bench role who can come in and play lock down D. could be possible Dortch could play this role better than Grant even if Grant is the better overall player.

Situational players this season for sure. Grant might be a decent rebounder which will be needed and it seems Dortch has “glovability” on the D end.

 

[SC1221]

I don’t know much about either of them. AAU output is not necessarily an accurate metric though for assessing who can/will contribute earlier on a Pike team. By rhe way, the latter “winner” doesn’t necessarily correlate with long term potential either. Miller contributed as a role player for us as a frosh, for example. We might need someone in a deeper bench role who can come in and play lock down D. could be possible Dortch could play this role better than Grant even if Grant is the better overall player.

The idea that Dortch is some defensive specialist compared to Grant is based on nothing, Grant is much more ready for college and his general size and AAU performance on the Nike circuit reflect that. Dortch has potential but needs to add a significant amount before having any carved out role.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

The idea that Dortch is some defensive specialist compared to Grant is based on nothing, Grant is much more ready for college and his general size and AAU performance on the Nike circuit reflect that. Dortch has potential but needs to add a significant amount before having any carved out role.

I really have no idea about Dortch other than Pike comparing him to Caleb.

 

[cm_13]

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Those shorts 🔥

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Wait a second…

during the season you were consistently criticizing pike for playing GG too much. I distinctly remember you saying that he needs to significantly cut his minutes suggesting repeatedly that Oskar should be getting his minutes (his toughness, etc)

It was only towards the very end (when the season was over) that you said pike should give the green light to GG for development reasons

you were one of the biggest critics of GG

Now you’re criticizing pike for not allowing GG “to play through his offensive struggles”

Come on man. Be better

No - he’s not saying that. You’d have to read through a bunch of string above to get the full context. He’s saying that in a vacuum where nothing else matters, over time, GG would probably have been our best shooter. In a separate post he suggested that the best shooter on many, if not most (I don’t remember) teams is a walk on.

The point (and only point) he was trying to make is that you don’t and shouldn’t play a guy just because they are or are supposed to be good shooters. Green has been very consistent in his view that it’s hard to overcome very poor D (unplayable level) with offense on a winning team. That simply being a little better than the other options at scoring isn’t enough.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

I think some context is needed in this string. The NBA is a game dominated by 3s - here is an all time running list of career 3s made by NBA centers.

Most 3 Pointers By Centers In Career | StatMuse

Karl-Anthony Towns has sunk the most career threes by a center, with 975 three-pointers.

www.statmuse.com

It’s sorted by percentage made, but you can also sort by attempts and see that only 4 centers in the history of the NBA averaged 3.5+ attempts per game and NO center in the history of the game averaged 2+ made 3s per game.

The point in this - Sommerville will not be averaging 3.5+ three point attempts a game. There is just no universe that this happens on a team with 2 projected lottery picks. Luka Garza was the best player and highest usage player on his team and he only averaged 3.5 threes once - as a junior. The point is - it’s extremely unlikely that Sommerville is both a high usage and high percentage 3 point shooter for us next season. It would be unprecedented. If he’s only taking a couple 3s a game max, extended PT for him or anyone else at the center position for that matter, is not going to be dictated by this skill one way or the other at the high major level. It’s just not.

 

[RedTeam1994]

No - he’s not saying that. You’d have to read through a bunch of string above to get the full context. He’s saying that in a vacuum where nothing else matters, over time, GG would probably have been our best shooter. In a separate post he suggested that the best shooter on many, if not most (I don’t remember) teams is a walk on.

The point (and only point) he was trying to make is that you don’t and shouldn’t play a guy just because they are or are supposed to be good shooters. Green has been very consistent in his view that it’s hard to overcome very poor D (unplayable level) with offense on a winning team. That simply being a little better than the other options at scoring isn’t enough.

Thx for the clarification.

He has talked out of both sides of his mouth before. Figured he was doing it again. Guess not thus I’ve deleted my comment so as not to muddy the conversation

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Thx for the clarification.

He has talked out of both sides of his mouth before. Figured he was doing it again. Guess not thus I’ve deleted my comment so as not to muddy the conversation

Green’s generally pretty consistent with his own views - some of them just stand out as contrarian to popular views.

I’m not sure he’s right though in this case. We’ll see what happens with Gavin at Nebraska. To Chop’s point, high school success with shooting doesn’t always correlate with being a great college shooter.

 

[RedTeam1994]

Green’s generally pretty consistent with his own views - some of them just stand out as contrarian to popular views.

I’m not sure he’s right though in this case. We’ll see what happens with Gavin at Nebraska. To Chop’s point, high school success with shooting doesn’t always correlate with being a great college shooter.

Imho, what he does at Nebraska and/or where he transfers to after that (lol) won’t necessarily prove anything as to whether pike handled him correctly

The fact is he struggled a ton on both ends of the floor

Based on actual production he deserved to sit

But based on potential pike played him more (than his production dictated)

And when the season was lost he gave him the green light (again based on his potential) and even then while he certainly played better he didn’t light the world on fire.

Imho pike played it exactly right in terms of playing time

i don’t think it necessarily says anything about pike if the light bulb goes on in the kid in the future since we have no way of knowing whether the light bulb would have gone on had he stayed. And ultimately how much of that is on the coach ?

 

[socaldave]

One of the biggest challenges for freshman bigs is staying out of foul trouble, which is a significant limiting factor on minutes. Body control is one part of it, but also the experience/insight to know when you should/shouldn't contest, the practiced skill of exactly how to set a good screen, etc.

Looking at personal fouls per 40 min for our freshman centers over the years:

TBD - Lathan Sommerville (National #105)
5.2 - Cliff Omoruyi (National #42)
6.1 - Myles Johnson
7.3 - Mamadou Doucoure (National top 100 before reclassifying)
7.5 - Ibrahima Diallo
5.5 - Shaq Doorson
7.2 - Kadeem Jack (National top 100 before going prep)
9.0 - Greg Lewis
5.8 - Gil Biruta
6.1 - Austin Johnson
3.2 - Greg Echnique
5.9 - Hamady N'Diaye

If Sommerville can limit his fouls, that will go a long way toward accelerating his development.

Cliff got in foul trouble often and early early in his career.
In my observation he solved it by not playing defense on the opposing 5, in other words zero development on position on postion defense.
How pike plans to play and use the 5 this year based on his recent interview, Cliff would have been odd man out. His skill set doesn’t fit how we want to play this year.
I agree with you on body control and insight. Both qualities Cliff did not have and Lathan has in abundance. Watch his tapes understand his linage BBall playing Dad.
As Pike says in his interview he is laughing at people who are concerned about our 5 position this year! So am I.

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Imho, what he does at Nebraska and/or where he transfers to after that (lol) won’t necessarily prove anything as to whether pike handled him correctly

The fact is he struggled a ton on both ends of the floor

Based on actual production he deserved to sit

But based on potential pike played him more (than his production dictated)

And when the season was lost he gave him the green light (again based on his potential) and even then while he certainly played better he didn’t light the world on fire.

Imho pike played it exactly right in terms of playing time

i don’t think it necessarily says anything about pike if the light bulb goes on in the kid in the future since we have no way of knowing whether the light bulb would have gone on had he stayed. And ultimately how much of that is on the coach ?

Yeah - I’m not saying a good year at Nebraska would mean we handled Gavin poorly. Things sometimes just click after frosh season. What I’m saying is, it’s also possible that Gavin will never live up to his recruiting ranking.

 

[RedTeam1994]

Yeah - I’m not saying a good year at Nebraska would mean we handled Gavin poorly. Things sometimes just click after frosh season. What I’m saying is, it’s also possible that Gavin will never live up to his recruiting ranking.

Very possible too. I agree with you.

Im just saying that - there will be some on here (the few who bash pike regardless) that will criticize him either way: he does well and they’ll say pike didn’t use him right; he does poorly and pike “broke” him or some other nonsense)

 

[GRU23]

Cliff got in foul trouble often and early early in his career.
In my observation he solved it by not playing defense on the opposing 5, in other words zero development on position on postion defense.
How pike plans to play and use the 5 this year based on his recent interview, Cliff would have been odd man out. His skill set doesn’t fit how we want to play this year.
I agree with you on body control and insight. Both qualities Cliff did not have and Lathan has in abundance. Watch his tapes understand his linage BBall playing Dad.
As Pike says in his interview he is laughing at people who are concerned about our 5 position this year! So am I.

Clearly you just did not watch Cliff and understand any of what he was doing. Just cause players occasionally hit Cliff with a. Post move doesn’t mean he was a bad post defender. He was pretty good, on top of being a tremendous team defender. While I do think we will be okay without him, underplaying Cliffs D is absolutely absurd

 

[socaldave]

Clearly you just did not watch Cliff and understand any of what he was doing. Just cause players occasionally hit Cliff with a. Post move doesn’t mean he was a bad post defender. He was pretty good, on top of being a tremendous team defender. While I do think we will be okay without him, underplaying Cliffs D is absolutely absurd

I did watch Cliff, watching him made my eyes bleed. So glad I don’t have to watch him get outplayed and miss point blank dunks anymore. His basketball IQ was low to non existent
That’s why he got outscored by a majority of 5’s in the Big
He was a terrible 1 on 1 defender. Most of his blocks where on opponents guards who beat their man. The blocks rarely resulted in a change of possession

 

[PSAL_Hoops]

Steve Pikiell high on Rutgers' new-look center position

No idea how reliable this article is, but it sure sounds like Ogbole would be the starter if the season began tomorrow. Of course, Sommerville just got to campus so there’s still plenty of time for that to change.

 

[Salvi's Headband]

How about some Sinatra, or the Beatles, or Nat King Cole, or the Stones, or the Jackson Five, or anything else that's not...

Yes nothing says 18 year old basketball player like Frank Sinatra

 

[Good-Knight]

Some things to like. Some things that need work.