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OT: Berhalter…OUT!!!

This peaked my interest. I have ZERO knowledge or insight into who the good coaches are, but hey, Spain just became European champions and HE'S the one expressing interest.

 
In Brazil and other countries you see small fields or fenced areas like basketball courts you see in inner cities here. They are everywhere. Even in flavelas.

Until high concentration areas have that level of interest where kids are playing constantly and creating, it doesn’t matter how many youth coaches or licensed coaches you have. You’ll never reach that of success. I know someone on the US Soccer Foundation board. That’s a big focus for them.
The key thing that is developed on those small fields in other countries is a creative ability and touch that comes with being able to play with out coaching. USSF will never be able to duplicate it here, because they A. aren't going to organize anything that isn't pay to play and B. they aren't going to organize anything and than have kids just play with no organization.
 
This peaked my interest. I have ZERO knowledge or insight into who the good coaches are, but hey, Spain just became European champions and HE'S the one expressing interest.

Most likely agent driven to get him a renewed contract.
 
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Social media is predominately unreliable, unverifiable crap when it comes to reliability as a source of information. And nowadays, traditional media has to compete with social media for attention and is thus forced to also trade in rumor, speculation and misrepresentation, same as social media.

Given that reality, I don't believe anything I see or hear anywhere until it's verified by original sources (in this case, Luis De La Fuente himself). Maybe he did express interest recently. Maybe he expressed interest a while back. Maybe he's never had any interest.
 
I was only asking specifically about why @RutgHoops thinks GB wasn't even a decent tactical coach and how he thinks it could've been done better. It's a pretty strong statement and I'm curious about the answer. As I said, just to obtain the licenses he held, GB would have to have demonstrated tactical knowledge and ability well beyond "decent" level.

As for player/roster selection, I'm not sure how that works on the USMNT. I don't know the degree to which the coach can choose whomever he wishes whenever he wishes. I also don't know what kinds of constraints are imposed by various player's clubs. I'd like to know those things, but I can't find any credible and complete information about it.

But for sure, the coach is responsible for whom, from the roster, to play at any given time. And where they play within the system. And for the most part, I was fine with the players GB chose in the WC and other games. We can all argue hypotheticals with it, but I saw no choices that weren't reasonably defensible.

The one issue I had w/GB's choice of where to play players within his system was putting Gio on the wing in that last game. I said before the match I thought it would be unwise. And as I watched the game unfold, it seemed Gio was burning a ton of energy and not getting on the ball as often as I would have wished. IMO, that was an indefensible choice by GB, a misuse of Reyna given the larger context of the game.

I also don't understand why M Robinson didn't play in the Copa America tournament. Presumably, there's a valid reason and that reason just wasn't widely shared. Or if it was shared, I couldn't find it with several web searches. M Rob was a huge component of the improved play in the back for the USMNT prior to the WC. And his loss was an equally huge factor in our performance in that WC, IMO.

Anyway, GB is gone, so now I'm mostly curious to see what changes with his replacement. I think that, without improving the roster at the back, whoever it is will have a pretty huge challenge.

Not sure what licensure has to do with anything. The worst NAIA college basketball HC and Coach K likely have the same "certification" but not sure anyone would argue they are coaches on the same level.

As for my strategy objection here are three examples:

1. There are probably 7 or 8 teams considered "good/decent" who played in the Copa America: Argentina, Canada, Mexico, USMNT, Uruguay, Brazil and Columbia. We can add to that list all 24 teams that made the group stage in the Euros. Of those 32 teams there are 7 teams I can identify whose style is to play "out from the back" at all costs: Netherlands, France, Brazil, Colombia, Spain, Germany and USMNT. The Netherlands have the best collection of fullbacks in the world, Brazil, France and Spain are likely the most skilled national teams in the world plus their goalkeepers may be the three best in the world with the ball at their feet. Germany and Columbia have in James and Toni Kroos (outside of Rodri) the most adept playmaking midfielders in the World. The USMNT on the other hand possibly have the worst goalkeeper of all those 32 teams listed above with the ball at his feet and fullbacks who are not great in possession. None of our defenders nor Matt Turner play a possession style for their club team. That kind of makes it difficult to implement a possession based system with our personnel. England doesn't play a possession game, Argentina doesn't play a possession game, Portugal, Austria, Denmark, etc. don't play that way. The idea that the 2024 USMNT's best "style" is a possession based system is folly.


2. During the 2022 WC qualification cycle Berhalter steadfastly refused to include Tim Ream on the team (https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...-for-march-world-cup-qualifying-training-camp). Instead he included fullbacks like Aaron Long, Erik Player Brown and James Sands. Anyone paying attention to the EPL in '22 would have known Tim Ream was playing "lights out" for Fulham. He started 33 games and his performance that year earned him a new contract from a team that "stayed up" in the toughest league in the world. It appears someone woke Greg from his slumber and must've stuck some Fulham game tapes on his laptop because he added Ream to the WC squad after the qualification round. Ream started every game in that '22 WC. So, how does an HC not include what (arguably) turned out to be his best defensive player in the WC in any WC qualifier? Would you not consider it somewhat wasteful that our starting Center Back pairing in the '22 WC didn't play one game together in WC qualifying because (arguably) the best defensive player on the team was left off the WC qualifying roster?

3. The "straw"--- The '24 Copa- of the 32 teams listed above it is my opinion there is ONE HC who would have decided to absorb pressure against an awful Panama team when down to 10 men. Greg Berhalter. Panama lost 5-0 in their next match. They are a bad squad. No team worth a damn would have sat back and absorbed pressure from that Panama squad. That decision is made only worse because (Outside of goalkeeper) the weakest part of this USMNT squad is its center backs. And the player he put in, CCV, in my opinion is the worst field player on the USMNT. It is my opinion by inserting your best bench player in Yunus Musah the USMNT would have been better able to keep possession agains a poor Panama squad and would not have continuously exposed the weakest part of the team. Musah thrives in possession and would have likely made a greater impact on that game than CCV did (who was awful in that Panama game).

National Teams and Club Teams are very different animals. Club coaches work day after day for months at a time on a style of play, variations of that style of play and game planning. National team coaches have two or three weeks to work with their players. Unless you have World Class talent you need to be spot on in how you play, who you select and how you adjust in game. Berhalter (imo) was pretty poor at all three. I can add more examples, but this is just my $0.02 as to why I do not believe Berhalter was the right Coach for this USMNT squad.
 
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Not sure what licensure has to do with anything. The worst NAIA college basketball HC and Coach K likely have the same "certification" but not sure anyone would argue they are coaches on the same level.

As for my strategy objection here are three examples:

1. There are probably 7 or 8 teams considered "good/decent" who played in the Copa America: Argentina, Canada, Mexico, USMNT, Uruguay, Brazil and Columbia. We can add to that list all 24 teams that made the group stage in the Euros. Of those 32 teams there are 7 teams I can identify whose style is to play "out from the back" at all costs: Netherlands, France, Brazil, Colombia, Spain, Germany and USMNT. The Netherlands have the best collection of fullbacks in the world, Brazil, France and Spain are likely the most skilled national teams in the world plus their goalkeepers may be the three best in the world with the ball at their feet. Germany and Columbia have in James and Toni Kroos (outside of Rodri) the most adept playmaking midfielders in the World. The USMNT on the other hand possibly have the worst goalkeeper of all those 32 teams listed above with the ball at his feet and fullbacks who are not great with possession and none of them play a possession style for their club team.. England doesn't play a possession game, Argentina doesn't play a possession game, Portugal, Austria, Denmark, etc. don't play that way. The idea that the 2024 USMNT's best "style" is a possession based system is folly.


2. During the 2022 WC qualification cycle Berhalter steadfastly refused to include Tim Ream on the team (https://www.ussoccer.com/stories/20...-for-march-world-cup-qualifying-training-camp). Instead he included fullbacks like Aaron Long, Erik Player Brown and James Sands. Anyone paying attention to the EPL in '22 would have known Tim Ream was playing "lights out" for Fulham. He started 33 games and his performance that year earned him a new contract from a team that "stayed up" in the toughest league in the world. It appears someone woke Greg from his slumber and must've stuck some Fulham game tapes on his laptop because he added Ream to the WC squad after the qualification round. Ream started every game in that '22 WC. So, how does an HC not include what (arguably) turned out to be his best defensive player in the WC in any WC qualifier? Would you not consider it somewhat wasteful that our starting defensive pairing in the '22 WC didn't play one game together in WC qualifying because (arguably) the best defensive player on the team was left off the WC qualifying roster?

3. The "straw"--- The '24 Copa- of the 32 teams listed above it is my opinion there is ONE HC who would have decided to absorb pressure against an awful Panama team when down to 10 men. Greg Berhalter. Panama lost 5-0 in their next match. They are a bad squad. NO team worth a damn would have sat back and absorbed pressure from that Panama squad. That decision is made only worse because (Outside of goalkeeper) the weakest part of this USMNT squad is its center backs. And the player he put in, CCV, in my opinion is the worst field player on the USMNT. It is my opinion by inserting your best bench player in Yunus Musah the USMNT would have been better able to keep possession agains a poor Panama squad and would not have continuously exposed the weakest part of the team. Musah thrives in possession and would have likely made a greater impact on that game than CCV did (who was not shockingly awful).

National Teams and Club Teams are very different animals. Club coaches work day after day for months at a time on a style of play, variations of that style of play and game planning. National team coaches have two or three weeks to work with their players. Unless you have World Class talent you need to be spot on in how you play, who you select and the how you adjust in game. Berhalter (imo) was pretty poor at all three. I can add more examples, but this is just my $0.02 as to why I do not believe Berhalter was the right Coach for this USMNT squad.
To point number 3...taking off Balogun at the half was insane.
 
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Not sure what licensure has to do with anything. The worst NAIA college basketball HC and Coach K likely have the same "certification" but not sure anyone would argue they are coaches on the same level.

As for my strategy objection here are three examples:

1. There are probably 7 or 8 teams considered "good/decent" who played in the Copa America: Argentina, Canada, Mexico, USMNT, Uruguay, Brazil and Columbia. We can add to that list all 24 teams that made the group stage in the Euros. Of those 32 teams there are 7 teams I can identify whose style is to play "out from the back" at all costs: Netherlands, France, Brazil, Colombia, Spain, Germany and USMNT. The Netherlands have the best collection of fullbacks in the world, Brazil, France and Spain are likely the most skilled national teams in the world plus their goalkeepers may be the three best in the world with the ball at their feet. Germany and Columbia have in James and Toni Kroos (outside of Rodri) the most adept playmaking midfielders in the World. The USMNT on the other hand possibly have the worst goalkeeper of all those 32 teams listed above with the ball at his feet and fullbacks who are not great in possession. None of our defenders nor Matt Turner play a possession style for their club team. That kind of makes it difficult to implement a possession based system with our personnel. England doesn't play a possession game, Argentina doesn't play a possession game, Portugal, Austria, Denmark, etc. don't play that way. The idea that the 2024 USMNT's best "style" is a possession based system is folly.
In the paragraph (above), you've answered what you would do differently than GB strategically. And that's fine and all.

But you wrote: "But (imo) I never found him to be even a decent tactical Coach". And my question to you was: "So what did you think GB did that was tactically incorrect for the USMNT and how would you have the USMNT play differently? And why do you think your approach would be better?". I was sort of expecting you to say something like how you wish the USMNT would use a lot more combination play when attacking in the final third.

Strategies are the coach's overall approach to a game. Playing a counter-attacking style is one example. Knowing, prior to the game, that an opponent is weaker on one side of their defense than the other and and instructing the team to try to create number's up situations around those weaker players is strategic. Applying lots of defensive pressure in the final third is a strategy. In general, strategy is much more static and predetermined than tactics. It's a plan or a general approach.

Whereas tactics are more dynamic and situational. Which tactic is employed when changes from moment to moment throughout the game. For example, all the various forms of combination play are part of soccer tactics. Wall passes, 1-2s, overlaps, take-overs. All part of small-group tactics. Players learn to recognize cues that some particular form of combination play is called for in a particular moment. Midfielders recognizing that an opponent's defense is pressuring very high and adjusting their supporting runs is larger-group tactics. The exact details of what attacking players do to try and catch out the weaker side of the opponent's defense is tactics.

Some things are both strategic (planned and relatively static) and tactical. For example, telling A. Robinson to overlap up into the final third when attacking for the entire game is strategic but ARob understanding when to make the run, when not to make the run, and whatever midfielder becomes responsible for covering for ARob defensively is all tactical.

So, it's a little bit semantics, but I think what you meant to critique about GB about was his strategy, not his understanding or coaching of tactics. But you haven't said what you'd do differently. You're only said what you wouldn't do.

Specifically, what do you want the players to do differently? Say the USMNT wins possession of the ball in their defensive third inside the box. What do you want to happen next? How do we win?

To be honest, I don't really understand exactly what you mean by "playing out of the back" or how any soccer team plays if they don't play possession-soccer. Can you clarify? To my way of thinking, if a team takes possession of the ball in their defensive third, then they have no choice but to play out of the back. But the alternative to possessing the ball is to play low-percentage long passes all the time, defend constantly, and hope for the best.

The USMNT used to be unable to maintain possession of the ball against good teams who would pressure us in our defensive third. So we'd basically play long balls way upfield hoping to win some 50-50 balls and make something happen. For sure, we wons games that way. But it wasn't a reliably repeatable approach. We didn't do it because it was good soccer. We did it because it was all we had due to lack of skill at the back.
 
Social media is predominately unreliable, unverifiable crap when it comes to reliability as a source of information. And nowadays, traditional media has to compete with social media for attention and is thus forced to also trade in rumor, speculation and misrepresentation, same as social media.

Given that reality, I don't believe anything I see or hear anywhere until it's verified by original sources (in this case, Luis De La Fuente himself). Maybe he did express interest recently. Maybe he expressed interest a while back. Maybe he's never had any interest.
If you're not going to believe the confirmation right from the mouth of De La Fuente's agents, or Goff, you're just going to be disappointed in sourcing. The head of the agency flat out confirmed they reached out to US Soccer, and Goff has more than enough sources to debunk it if it weren't true. He's the godfather of US soccer writers.
That said, sadly I do agree that the interest and contact was likely done purely for the sake of shaking down Spain for more money. But I'd love to be dead wrong. De La Fuente thoroughly outcoached Southgate.
 
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In the paragraph (above), you've answered what you would do differently than GB strategically. And that's fine and all.

But you wrote: "But (imo) I never found him to be even a decent tactical Coach". And my question to you was: "So what did you think GB did that was tactically incorrect for the USMNT and how would you have the USMNT play differently? And why do you think your approach would be better?". I was sort of expecting you to say something like how you wish the USMNT would use a lot more combination play when attacking in the final third.

Strategies are the coach's overall approach to a game. Playing a counter-attacking style is one example. Knowing, prior to the game, that an opponent is weaker on one side of their defense than the other and and instructing the team to try to create number's up situations around those weaker players is strategic. Applying lots of defensive pressure in the final third is a strategy. In general, strategy is much more static and predetermined than tactics. It's a plan or a general approach.

Whereas tactics are more dynamic and situational. Which tactic is employed when changes from moment to moment throughout the game. For example, all the various forms of combination play are part of soccer tactics. Wall passes, 1-2s, overlaps, take-overs. All part of small-group tactics. Players learn to recognize cues that some particular form of combination play is called for in a particular moment. Midfielders recognizing that an opponent's defense is pressuring very high and adjusting their supporting runs is larger-group tactics. The exact details of what attacking players do to try and catch out the weaker side of the opponent's defense is tactics.

Some things are both strategic (planned and relatively static) and tactical. For example, telling A. Robinson to overlap up into the final third when attacking for the entire game is strategic but ARob understanding when to make the run, when not to make the run, and whatever midfielder becomes responsible for covering for ARob defensively is all tactical.

So, it's a little bit semantics, but I think what you meant to critique about GB about was his strategy, not his understanding or coaching of tactics. But you haven't said what you'd do differently. You're only said what you wouldn't do.

Specifically, what do you want the players to do differently? Say the USMNT wins possession of the ball in their defensive third inside the box. What do you want to happen next? How do we win?

To be honest, I don't really understand exactly what you mean by "playing out of the back" or how any soccer team plays if they don't play possession-soccer. Can you clarify? To my way of thinking, if a team takes possession of the ball in their defensive third, then they have no choice but to play out of the back. But the alternative to possessing the ball is to play low-percentage long passes all the time, defend constantly, and hope for the best. But we have speed and athleticism. We play to our weaknesses not our strengths.

The USMNT used to be unable to maintain possession of the ball against good teams who would pressure us in our defensive third. So we'd basically play long balls way upfield hoping to win some 50-50 balls and make something happen. For sure, we wons games that way. But it wasn't a reliably repeatable approach. We didn't do it because it was good soccer. We did it because it was all we had due to lack of skill at the back.

Maybe we are not aligned on strategy v tactics. I view strategy (for example) as the formation a team plays: a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-3 or a 3-5-2...how a national team sets up is strategy. You obviously cant sign free agents to address your weakness so a national team needs to play to its strength and away from its weakness.

To me, within that strategy are the tactics. For example both Spain and England play a 4-2-3-1. Strategically it is the same set up. However, those two teams employ very different tactics. Spain play a very possession based system. When their goalkeeper gets the ball they play the ball thru their fullbacks to move the ball up field with possession. This is how the USMNT tries to play. England on the other hand uses more "dump and chase" tactics. When they get the ball they "boot it" up the field and try to chase it down. They have a Center forward (Kane) very adept at hold up play. The skill, and athleticism of their attacking wingers and attacking mid (Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer) allow them to counter attack with great success and to employ a strong high press when their opponent gets the ball back. Same strategy different tactics.

So, to (maybe) answer your question (imo) the 4-4-3 formation the USMNT employs is the correct "strategy". But, with Bologun, Pulicic, Weah, and Reyna (plus players like Aaronson and Pepi off the bench) it is my opinion we are better served using the same "dump and chase" tactics as England. Our attacking players seem best suited to use their speed to "chase" as quickly as possible up the field and apply ball pressure on opposing full backs when we lose the ball knowing (when healthy) Dest and ARob have the speed to chase and catch opposing wingers who try to counter. And Bologun is physical and athletic enough to be a pretty good hold up player as well. On the other hand our fullbacks plus Adams and McKinnie all (imo) are pretty weak trying to possess the ball and pass it surgically up the field (like Spain). The USMNT (imo) is not a highly skilled team. We are a pretty athletic team (relatively speaking). I feel we play to our weaknesses not our strengths.

Tactics that require ++ball skills are not the right tactics for the USMNT (imo). Since Pulicic left Chelsea, Dest left Barcelona and McKinnie left Juventus there is not one player on the USMNT who are playing for what is considered an "elite" club team. Maybe Pulicic on AC Milan but not sure AC Milan are "elite". Meanwhile the teams who employ the same "tactics" as the USMNT have rosters littered with players playing for the best club teams in the World such as Man City, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Liverpool, etc. The only national teams using the same tactics as the USMNT have a level of talent on their roster that the USMNT simply does not have.

To use a college basketball analogy I feel Berhalter played a Princeton system with a Loyola Marymount (Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers vintage) roster.
 
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Maybe we are not aligned on strategy v tactics. I view strategy (for example) as the formation a team plays: a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-3 or a 3-5-2...how a national team sets up is strategy. You obviously cant sign free agents to address your weakness so a national team needs to play to its strength and away from its weakness.

To me, within that strategy are the tactics. For example both Spain and England play a 4-2-3-1. Strategically it is the same set up. However, those two teams employ very different tactics. Spain play a very possession based system. When their goalkeeper gets the ball they play the ball thru their fullbacks to move the ball up field with possession. This is how the USMNT tries to play. England on the other hand uses more "dump and chase" tactics. When they get the ball they "boot it" up the field and try to chase it down. They have a Center forward (Kane) very adept at hold up play. The skill, and athleticism of their attacking wingers and attacking mid (Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer) allow them to counter attack with great success and to employ a strong high press when their opponent gets the ball back. Same strategy different tactics.

So, to (maybe) answer your question (imo) the 4-4-3 formation the USMNT employs is the correct "strategy". But, with Bologun, Pulicic, Weah, and Reyna (plus players like Aaronson and Pepi off the bench) it is my opinion we are better served using the same "dump and chase" tactics as England. Our attacking players seem best suited to use their speed to "chase" as quickly as possible up the field and apply ball pressure on opposing full backs when we lose the ball knowing (when healthy) Dest and ARob have the speed to chase and catch opposing wingers who try to counter. And Bologun is physical and athletic enough to be a pretty good hold up player as well. On the other hand our fullbacks plus Adams and McKinnie all (imo) are pretty weak trying to possess the ball and pass it surgically up the field (like Spain). The USMNT (imo) is not a highly skilled team. We are a pretty athletic team (relatively speaking). I feel we play to our weaknesses not our strengths.

Tactics that require ++ball skills are not the right tactics for the USMNT (imo). Since Pulicic left Chelsea, Dest left Barcelona and McKinnie left Juventus there is not one player on the USMNT who are playing for what is considered an "elite" club team. Maybe Pulicic on AC Milan but not sure AC Milan are "elite". Meanwhile the teams who employ the same "tactics" as the USMNT have rosters littered with players playing for the best club teams in the World such as Man City, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Liverpool, etc. The only national teams using the same tactics as the USMNT have a level of talent on their roster that the USMNT simply does not have.

To use a college basketball analogy I feel Berhalter played a Princeton system with a Loyola Marymount (Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers vintage) roster.
Damn...you sure know your football.
 
Maybe we are not aligned on strategy v tactics. I view strategy (for example) as the formation a team plays: a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-3 or a 3-5-2...how a national team sets up is strategy. You obviously cant sign free agents to address your weakness so a national team needs to play to its strength and away from its weakness.

To me, within that strategy are the tactics. For example both Spain and England play a 4-2-3-1. Strategically it is the same set up. However, those two teams employ very different tactics. Spain play a very possession based system. When their goalkeeper gets the ball they play the ball thru their fullbacks to move the ball up field with possession. This is how the USMNT tries to play. England on the other hand uses more "dump and chase" tactics. When they get the ball they "boot it" up the field and try to chase it down. They have a Center forward (Kane) very adept at hold up play. The skill, and athleticism of their attacking wingers and attacking mid (Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer) allow them to counter attack with great success and to employ a strong high press when their opponent gets the ball back. Same strategy different tactics.

So, to (maybe) answer your question (imo) the 4-4-3 formation the USMNT employs is the correct "strategy". But, with Bologun, Pulicic, Weah, and Reyna (plus players like Aaronson and Pepi off the bench) it is my opinion we are better served using the same "dump and chase" tactics as England. Our attacking players seem best suited to use their speed to "chase" as quickly as possible up the field and apply ball pressure on opposing full backs when we lose the ball knowing (when healthy) Dest and ARob have the speed to chase and catch opposing wingers who try to counter. And Bologun is physical and athletic enough to be a pretty good hold up player as well. On the other hand our fullbacks plus Adams and McKinnie all (imo) are pretty weak trying to possess the ball and pass it surgically up the field (like Spain). The USMNT (imo) is not a highly skilled team. We are a pretty athletic team (relatively speaking). I feel we play to our weaknesses not our strengths.

Tactics that require ++ball skills are not the right tactics for the USMNT (imo). Since Pulicic left Chelsea, Dest left Barcelona and McKinnie left Juventus there is not one player on the USMNT who are playing for what is considered an "elite" club team. Maybe Pulicic on AC Milan but not sure AC Milan are "elite". Meanwhile the teams who employ the same "tactics" as the USMNT have rosters littered with players playing for the best club teams in the World such as Man City, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Liverpool, etc. The only national teams using the same tactics as the USMNT have a level of talent on their roster that the USMNT simply does not have.

To use a college basketball analogy I feel Berhalter played a Princeton system with a Loyola Marymount (Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers vintage) roster.
So England plays "dump and chase." Learn something new every day.
 
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So England plays "dump and chase." Learn something new every day.

How would you describe it? Is fast paced counter attacking a better description? A little bit of semantics for this discussion, no? Physical is a bit cliche, no? England is certainly not possession focused.

Here are some England possession stats for the Euro:

v. Serbia 53.2% (Serbia!!)
v Denmark 49.1%
v Switzerland 51.8%
v Spain 34.9%

The only team they had 65+% possession against was Slovenia which one would expect against a team that is putting 11 behind the ball, right?

Below is their goal yesterday. They certainly don't methodically work it out from the back, right?

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/fmc-3o52kjcmv8xjf7yp
 
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IMO, we need to re-think youth club/academy soccer.

If I could wave a magic wand, I'd restructure and standardize youth soccer curriculum.

Everything should start with ball mastery. Teach it in a belt-ranking system similar to martial arts -- you can only move up once you have demonstrated competence in very specific skills.

Everyone in the dojo practices ball mastery along with all kinds of small-sided games.

What makes this set-up really different from what we have now is that it can be done with little overhead. Think of your average strip mall karate or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu school.

The main issue this fixes is when soccer clubs have to maintain large fields and facilities and then go traveling, there is pressure to money grab unsuspecting parents because all that stuff costs a lot of money.

By keeping overhead low and the focus on player development, all the money we have in the youth system is far better spent.
 
How would you describe it? Is fast paced counter attacking a better description? A little bit of semantics for this discussion, no? Physical is a bit cliche, no? England is certainly not possession focused.

Here are some England possession stats for the Euro:

v. Serbia 53.2% (Serbia!!)
v Denmark 49.1%
v Switzerland 51.8%
v Spain 34.9%

The only team they had 65+% possession against was Slovenia which one would expect against a team that is putting 11 behind the ball, right?

Below is their goal yesterday. They certainly don't methodically work it out from the back, right?

https://www.foxsports.com/watch/fmc-3o52kjcmv8xjf7yp
To be honest I never heard the phrase "dump and chase" in the context of soccer. Definitely have heard it in hockey where you dump it in the opposing zone and look for the puck/ slam a guy against the boards. But for soccer I guessed that it sounded to me like just kicking the ball down the field and running after it ("long ball"), which I don't see from England at all (or really anybody anymore save the weakest of countries nowadays).
 
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To be honest I never heard the phrase "dump and chase" in the context of soccer. Definitely have heard it in hockey where you dump it in the opposing zone and look for the puck/ slam a guy against the boards. But for soccer I guessed that it sounded to me like just kicking the ball down the field and running after it ("long ball"), which I don't see from England at all (or really anybody anymore save the weakest of countries nowadays).
England is a terrible example. They had no idea what they wanted to be this tournament. With the wingers they had this time, they would have been better off playing a high possession % based attack. When it was rashford and sterling, having kane drop in and hit them running in behind made sense. Saka and foden aren't that. They have pace, but haven't played in a system that trains them to do that naturally. Bellingham is best on the counter and getting the ball out to the wingers making runs and then filling in as a runner thru the middle. But he was asked to play RM. Foden is a 10 asked to play LW. Kane is a floating 9 who is more like a 10 at times, but was asked to play high and wait for service. He gets impatient when doing that, so ends up dropping deep for the ball anyway, leaving a hole in the middle... because Judeor Phil aren't there. Rice is a 6 who wants to be an 8 or 10. Mainoo is a fine 8, but with all the dysfunction next to him and in front of him, they had nothing going on. Trippier played most of the tournament as a right footed LB on the same side as Jude and Phil, who all want to turn inside, so there is no width. On top of that, Southgate, a former defender, decided that his team full of guys who play for high counterpressing teams, decides to play a compact and deep low block against Spain and for most of the other games in the tournament.

On the flip side. Spain's players knew their jobs and did them well. Press high and win the ball back. Get the ball out to their speedy wingers, have morata, olmo, and fabian do their bit in the middle. Rodri sits and qbs the whole operation behind them.

Gregg never understood how to leverage his talent. We have a squad that is set up for high press, direct football. Not hoof and chase, but minimum number of passes to get upfield. With balogun in the middle, he needs early balls in to feet, not cutback crosses to the penalty spot. That can come from Jedi or Dest/Scally making lung busting overlapping runs. We don't have mf who can sit in and make incisive passes and intricate close quarters passing. Weston is fat and undisciplined positionally. Gio is possibly a 10, but hadn't played all year. Musah and Tillman should have played more. Just overall mismanagement of squad selection, tactics, and situational awareness. Just like England. Except we don't have the raw talent that England has to get by when not playing at 100%.
 
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As a nation with such a large population, and with so much effort put into youth soccer, we should be doing better on the international stage. The argument about other sports being more popular is not statistically correct. Nor is the argument about getting rich playing other sports because players can and do make a ton of money playing in Europe.

I'd like to see the USSF ramp up efforts to (a) continue making progress on evolving the state of the art in youth soccer development, (b) improve the outreach to kids whose families can't afford to spend thousands per year on so-called premiere soccer clubs, and (c) improve the process for identifying talent at younger ages and take a larger role in their development, or at least get them in touch with European clubs and into some of their development systems.

I don't believe that we don't have the talent within our borders. I believe we aren't propagandizing soccer enough for young people, and we aren't identifying and developing that talent well enough. We're doing better than we were. But it's clearly not yet good enough.
We aren't convincing elite athletes who want to play basketball or football to choose soccer instead. Nor do the ones that play soccer play all day outside in the sunshine and children until they get tapped by team clubs with a path to the national team. We do have kids playing basketball all day every day (slight exaggeration) who end up in AAU and HS and then college then the NB.

Maybe teh problem is there are a lot of near-great athletes who would excel at soccer playing these other sports but not quite hitting teh elite level in them... potential soccer athletes being wasted competing in other sports when, if they had played soccer in their youth, they would have had a higher ceiling.

Soccer-first nations, despite lower populations, do not have that "problem".
 
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Maybe we are not aligned on strategy v tactics. I view strategy (for example) as the formation a team plays: a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-3 or a 3-5-2...how a national team sets up is strategy. You obviously cant sign free agents to address your weakness so a national team needs to play to its strength and away from its weakness.

To me, within that strategy are the tactics. For example both Spain and England play a 4-2-3-1. Strategically it is the same set up. However, those two teams employ very different tactics. Spain play a very possession based system. When their goalkeeper gets the ball they play the ball thru their fullbacks to move the ball up field with possession. This is how the USMNT tries to play. England on the other hand uses more "dump and chase" tactics. When they get the ball they "boot it" up the field and try to chase it down. They have a Center forward (Kane) very adept at hold up play. The skill, and athleticism of their attacking wingers and attacking mid (Saka, Foden, Bellingham, Palmer) allow them to counter attack with great success and to employ a strong high press when their opponent gets the ball back. Same strategy different tactics.

So, to (maybe) answer your question (imo) the 4-4-3 formation the USMNT employs is the correct "strategy". But, with Bologun, Pulicic, Weah, and Reyna (plus players like Aaronson and Pepi off the bench) it is my opinion we are better served using the same "dump and chase" tactics as England. Our attacking players seem best suited to use their speed to "chase" as quickly as possible up the field and apply ball pressure on opposing full backs when we lose the ball knowing (when healthy) Dest and ARob have the speed to chase and catch opposing wingers who try to counter. And Bologun is physical and athletic enough to be a pretty good hold up player as well. On the other hand our fullbacks plus Adams and McKinnie all (imo) are pretty weak trying to possess the ball and pass it surgically up the field (like Spain). The USMNT (imo) is not a highly skilled team. We are a pretty athletic team (relatively speaking). I feel we play to our weaknesses not our strengths.

Tactics that require ++ball skills are not the right tactics for the USMNT (imo). Since Pulicic left Chelsea, Dest left Barcelona and McKinnie left Juventus there is not one player on the USMNT who are playing for what is considered an "elite" club team. Maybe Pulicic on AC Milan but not sure AC Milan are "elite". Meanwhile the teams who employ the same "tactics" as the USMNT have rosters littered with players playing for the best club teams in the World such as Man City, Bayern Munich, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Liverpool, etc. The only national teams using the same tactics as the USMNT have a level of talent on their roster that the USMNT simply does not have.

To use a college basketball analogy I feel Berhalter played a Princeton system with a Loyola Marymount (Bo Kimble/Hank Gathers vintage) roster.
Soccer formations are really not a strategy. I'll defend that statement at the end of my post.

First, let me rephrase what I was trying to say... Strategy is a plan. Tactics is the method of executing that plan. The plan can contain contingencies, but it's mostly predetermined prior to a game and doesn't typically change much during the game. The method of execution, OTOH, does change constantly and in many different ways throughout the game. Anyway, it's mostly semantics and not really important - I brought it up only because I misunderstood what you were saying about GB based on our different semantic takes.

As for England... England played what I think you're referring to as possession-soccer against the Dutch. And they had 60% of the possession. But while they appeared to try and do the same against Spain, there were largely unsuccessful and only had 37% of the possession. After the game, Southgate was quoted as saying "we didn't keep the ball well enough". Now, perhaps England was trying to be play more direct than they did against the Dutch. Who knows. But I assure you that England very much wanted to retain possession of the ball as much as possible, as Southgate's above quote makes clear.

Unless you mean playing more directly (but still with possession), then I'm not really sure what you mean by "dump and chase". It's not a phrase I've ever heard in my coaching life. In fact, I've only ever heard the phrase "chasing the ball" used in two ways, both with pretty negative connotations:

(1) When a player (typically a midfielder or back) is caught out of position by a sudden transition to defense and that player has to chase the ball backwards (recover back) towards his own goal to resolve the numbers-down situation. Number's down situations being generally undesirable, this form of chasing is seen as a bad thing and teams work to avoid it.

(2) When a team fails to properly swap to a new first defender after the first attacker makes a sideways pass. When that happens, the initial first defender often winds up having to chase the ball sideways to re-establish themselves as the first defender marking the new first attacker. Other than when a pass is quite short, this is pretty much always a really bad thing. Because it opens up the center of the field for easy through passes on the ground. This form of chasing is typically a sign of improperly established defensive shape. Because proper defensive shape allows a second defender to quickly move up to become the new first defender as the prior first defender quickly recovers back and tucks in as a second defender in order to prevent an easy through pass. With good defending, nobody ever has to chase the ball, the defense just rotates (kinda like a basketball zone) which is way more efficient and makes it way more difficult for the attacking team to make penetrating passes on the ground (i.e. high percentage passes).

TBH, I've never heard "chasing the ball" used as an attacking soccer term. I have heard the term "kick and run" which seems to match what you're describing. But I don't actually know any coaches who intentionally do that unless they feel their team is vastly overmatched. Then they play long passes out of the back, hope they can get some lucky bounces, and settle in to defend very compactly ceding possession to the other team almost entirely. I've resorted to doing a few times when in games where we were totally overmatched. But it's a measure of last resort. A kind of teamwide lack of composure. It's embarrassing.

Hm... Perhaps you're referring to pressing or defending high? In that context, it can appear like the defenders are chasing the ball. The forwards will essentially chase sideways in that context and the mids will play a bit of man on man to force the other team into playing a low percentage pass upfield, often giving up possession. It's not a total abdication of zonal defending, but it's necessarily less compact.

But that's not how you advance the ball from your defensive third. It's what you do when the ball's already up in the attacking third and you lose possession. And while there are certain contexts where it can work, there are contexts where it's a really, really bad idea.

Against a team like Spain, doing that is likely to get you scored on quickly because their defenders are so good at ball distribution out of the back. You can only do it when you have a very strong back line. And the USMNT is weak at the back, so yeah, probably a very bad idea against elite teams. And the USMNT has no good reason to not play possession soccer against weaker teams at this point.

Also, I don't agree that the USMNT lacks the skill to play possession soccer. GB's teams were regularly beating Mexico and dominating time-of-possession. Mexico may not be at their strongest at the moment, but they're still ranked pretty high last time I checked (14 maybe, not really sure). And the US did decently against Brazil in their friendly. I think they need to work on getting better at it; and should not abandon it. We can agree to disagree about that.

Back to soccer formations. Formations aren't what most people seem to think they are. They're just a framework for discussion about the game, an initial point of reference, and often have little to no actual bearing on what takes place during the game. Within a given team, a formation is used as a reference for discussing roles and responsibilities.

Outside the team, in media and fan-land, it's a framework for discussion too. But the discussions lack the inside knowledge to ever really be meaningful. Fun, perhaps, but mostly meaningless. Although, I thought Landon Donovan did a decent job of discussing system of play during one of the England games I watched (can't recall which one). He got beat up online for being boring, but that's 'cause most people lack the background to understand what he was saying. Of all the former USMNT players commentating, Donovan seems the most educated from a coaching point of view (makes me wonder if he's had some coaching exposure at some point, or if he's just smarter than the other former players).

So yeah, formations are not really strategies. They're just a tool in the coach's arsenal. A system of play is a strategy. But the exact same system of play can be based around several different formations. And one formation can be the foundation for several different systems of play. There are no rules about this stuff.
 
This peaked my interest. I have ZERO knowledge or insight into who the good coaches are, but hey, Spain just became European champions and HE'S the one expressing interest.

Could they be leveraging another opening to get more money out of their current employer.
 
Soccer formations are really not a strategy. I'll defend that statement at the end of my post.

First, let me rephrase what I was trying to say... Strategy is a plan. Tactics is the method of executing that plan. The plan can contain contingencies, but it's mostly predetermined prior to a game and doesn't typically change much during the game. The method of execution, OTOH, does change constantly and in many different ways throughout the game. Anyway, it's mostly semantics and not really important - I brought it up only because I misunderstood what you were saying about GB based on our different semantic takes.

As for England... England played what I think you're referring to as possession-soccer against the Dutch. And they had 60% of the possession. But while they appeared to try and do the same against Spain, there were largely unsuccessful and only had 37% of the possession. After the game, Southgate was quoted as saying "we didn't keep the ball well enough". Now, perhaps England was trying to be play more direct than they did against the Dutch. Who knows. But I assure you that England very much wanted to retain possession of the ball as much as possible, as Southgate's above quote makes clear.

Unless you mean playing more directly (but still with possession), then I'm not really sure what you mean by "dump and chase". It's not a phrase I've ever heard in my coaching life. In fact, I've only ever heard the phrase "chasing the ball" used in two ways, both with pretty negative connotations:

(1) When a player (typically a midfielder or back) is caught out of position by a sudden transition to defense and that player has to chase the ball backwards (recover back) towards his own goal to resolve the numbers-down situation. Number's down situations being generally undesirable, this form of chasing is seen as a bad thing and teams work to avoid it.

(2) When a team fails to properly swap to a new first defender after the first attacker makes a sideways pass. When that happens, the initial first defender often winds up having to chase the ball sideways to re-establish themselves as the first defender marking the new first attacker. Other than when a pass is quite short, this is pretty much always a really bad thing. Because it opens up the center of the field for easy through passes on the ground. This form of chasing is typically a sign of improperly established defensive shape. Because proper defensive shape allows a second defender to quickly move up to become the new first defender as the prior first defender quickly recovers back and tucks in as a second defender in order to prevent an easy through pass. With good defending, nobody ever has to chase the ball, the defense just rotates (kinda like a basketball zone) which is way more efficient and makes it way more difficult for the attacking team to make penetrating passes on the ground (i.e. high percentage passes).

TBH, I've never heard "chasing the ball" used as an attacking soccer term. I have heard the term "kick and run" which seems to match what you're describing. But I don't actually know any coaches who intentionally do that unless they feel their team is vastly overmatched. Then they play long passes out of the back, hope they can get some lucky bounces, and settle in to defend very compactly ceding possession to the other team almost entirely. I've resorted to doing a few times when in games where we were totally overmatched. But it's a measure of last resort. A kind of teamwide lack of composure. It's embarrassing.

Hm... Perhaps you're referring to pressing or defending high? In that context, it can appear like the defenders are chasing the ball. The forwards will essentially chase sideways in that context and the mids will play a bit of man on man to force the other team into playing a low percentage pass upfield, often giving up possession. It's not a total abdication of zonal defending, but it's necessarily less compact.

But that's not how you advance the ball from your defensive third. It's what you do when the ball's already up in the attacking third and you lose possession. And while there are certain contexts where it can work, there are contexts where it's a really, really bad idea.

Against a team like Spain, doing that is likely to get you scored on quickly because their defenders are so good at ball distribution out of the back. You can only do it when you have a very strong back line. And the USMNT is weak at the back, so yeah, probably a very bad idea against elite teams. And the USMNT has no good reason to not play possession soccer against weaker teams at this point.

Also, I don't agree that the USMNT lacks the skill to play possession soccer. GB's teams were regularly beating Mexico and dominating time-of-possession. Mexico may not be at their strongest at the moment, but they're still ranked pretty high last time I checked (14 maybe, not really sure). And the US did decently against Brazil in their friendly. I think they need to work on getting better at it; and should not abandon it. We can agree to disagree about that.

Back to soccer formations. Formations aren't what most people seem to think they are. They're just a framework for discussion about the game, an initial point of reference, and often have little to no actual bearing on what takes place during the game. Within a given team, a formation is used as a reference for discussing roles and responsibilities.

Outside the team, in media and fan-land, it's a framework for discussion too. But the discussions lack the inside knowledge to ever really be meaningful. Fun, perhaps, but mostly meaningless. Although, I thought Landon Donovan did a decent job of discussing system of play during one of the England games I watched (can't recall which one). He got beat up online for being boring, but that's 'cause most people lack the background to understand what he was saying. Of all the former USMNT players commentating, Donovan seems the most educated from a coaching point of view (makes me wonder if he's had some coaching exposure at some point, or if he's just smarter than the other former players).

So yeah, formations are not really strategies. They're just a tool in the coach's arsenal. A system of play is a strategy. But the exact same system of play can be based around several different formations. And one formation can be the foundation for several different systems of play. There are no rules about this stuff.
Formation isn't tactics, but it used to be when positional discipline was more rigid. These days, you have fullbacks rotating into central midfield, center backs sliding forward, forwards moving around interchangeably. To me tactics is more about, do you want to dominate possession? How do you attack with that possession? Do you want the fullbacks to hold width and hoof crosses in while the wingers attack the posts? Do you want to be a counterpressing team? A zonal marking one that has man concepts? Or one that cuts off passing lanes? Or do you want to go full Bielsa ball and just go man to man all over the pitch? Lots of principles to decide on...
 
So England plays "dump and chase." Learn something new every day.
They dont... they used to. They do that now only when they get full pressure like Spain applies. Normally they push the ball from Pickford, like molasses, up thru the midfield.
 
Reports is that Pochettino is top target.
A quick web search showed several sites reporting that rumor. Also saw several sites reporting that he was in talks with England for the same job w/them. No idea what truth there is to either rumor.
 
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