OT: "I'm a brain scientist and I let my son play football"

[ashokan]

Aside from the discrete, statistical parameters of concussion occurrences, there isn't a lot to support claims that kids playing HS football will be demented and punch drunk at 40.

British Journal of Sports Medicine June 2017

"A systematic review of potential long-term effects of sport-related concussion"

Results:

Following review of 3819 studies, 47 met inclusion criteria. Some former athletes have depression and cognitive deficits later in life, and there is an association between these deficits and multiple prior concussions. Former athletes are not at increased risk for death by suicide (two studies). Former high school American football players do not appear to be at increased risk for later life neurodegenerative diseases (two studies). Some retired professional American football players may be at increased risk for diminishment in cognitive functioning or mild cognitive impairment (several studies), and neurodegenerative diseases (one study). Neuroimaging studies show modest evidence of macrostructural, microstructural, functional and neurochemical changes in some athletes.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2017/04/28/bjsports-2017-097791

 

[bitnez]

A lot of people simply don't understand or fail to appreciate bias in scientific studies. This author didn't say CTE wasn't real or that football doesn't cause it. He merely said that there are other possible causes and/or aggravating factors and before you establish that there is a scientific causation (as opposed to an association) between football and CTE you need to test more than 200 hand selected football players who were already showing signs of brain dysfunction.

 

[WhiteBus]

A lot of people simply don't understand or fail to appreciate bias in scientific studies. This author didn't say CTE wasn't real or that football doesn't cause it. He merely said that there are other possible causes and/or aggravating factors and before you establish that there is a scientific causation (as opposed to an association) between football and CTE you need to test more than 200 hand selected football players who were already showing signs of brain dysfunction.

And how about testing people who never played football and see how many of them have CTE.

 

[ashokan]

A lot of people simply don't understand or fail to appreciate bias in scientific studies. This author didn't say CTE wasn't real or that football doesn't cause it. He merely said that there are other possible causes and/or aggravating factors and before you establish that there is a scientific causation (as opposed to an association) between football and CTE you need to test more than 200 hand selected football players who were already showing signs of brain dysfunction.

Yes - but when Aaron Hernandez has an autopsy showing tau concentrations all media talks about is how football caused the problems despite Hernandez being a PCP/opiate/weed/crack head. Then the shows on WFAN are talking about "more proof" football is dangerous. It reminded me of Favre talking about his memory problems maybe being football related when he was in drug rehab for 40 days, drank for years until his wife threatened to leave, and got a concussion from driving into a tree where he lost 18" of intestine . Football is becoming excuse du jure for a lot of things

 

[RUScrew85]

Brain Scientist?

Is that anything like Rocket Surgeon?

 

[LocalDC]

tau interesting theory and nothing more

 

[SkilletHead2]

Obviously, the sample of 110 or so brains that were studies is biased, but it's still part of the general cohort. So as that number grows, it would be hard to deny that a significant portion of pro/college football players suffer from CTE.

As a parent of a daughter, we don't have to worry about football, but I am terrified of my girl really developing a passion for gymnastics.....that's brutal on the body. At her gym, you see the older groups and practically half of them have injuries, braces, boots, wraps, and a few on crutches. She also has a love for swimming, so hopefully she will choose that. Or maybe tennis. At her school, the team sports that are big are lacrosse, field hockey, and basketball. I need to look up data on those! :)

Spot on, t. Even if no other football players had CTE, that is still enough of the total cohort to be highly unusual compared to the general population.

I'd push your girl toward tennis or swimming, sports she can do for a lifetime. Having said that, I really wouldn't "push" her toward anything, but rather make those doorways wide open and let her choose.

 

[RU Cheese]

CTE is real. CTE and concussions are way overblown. The NFL and their equipment counterparts need to spend millions on research and improving equipment. That being said, they also need to spend millions educating parents that their third grader isn't going to get CTE. There is so much bad info out there and parents are "learning" this stuff from The View and Oprah.

VKJ, I'm curious as to why you believe CTE is real? I ask because the science behind CTE and Tau in general isn't that well understood, and if I recall correctly (perhaps a poor assumption) you're a physician, no?

Genuinely interested in your answer because I don't know enough about validity of CTE (although I personally think it's somewhat moot as I'm comfortable with the idea that repeated head injuries are a bad thing) and agree with everything else in your post.

 

[Loyal-Son]

Sounds a little like "Man-caused global warming hysteria".

Congratulations. I commend you for one of the most ignorant posts of the year.

I would bet you don't even realize we are far better off if the current global warming is man-influenced than if it isn't. At least, if it is, we can try to do something about it. If it is not, we are totally screwed.

Wondering what you think the solution will be when the winter snow packs of the west shrink to the extent that cities like Los Angeles have no water to tap during the late summer months.

Maybe you would like to tell me what solutions you have when the US "breadbasket of the world" gets too hot and dry to sustain the current abundance of wheat and corn that we now use to supply the world.

Wondering how expensive you think it might be to our economy when the cities along the coast where 50% of our population resides become waterlogged due to rising sea level. A rise of 10 meters, which is currently under the scientific prediction for the next century will inundate at least 50% or Florida.

Perhaps you think carbon dioxide is not that strong a green-house gas. But it does acidify the oceans. What is your solution to the fact that increased acidity will gradually weaken the shells of most of our sea food. It apparently is already affecting coral.

Not even mentioned the fact that we witnessed well over $200 billion dollars, including our territories, in damage due to increased storm intensity this past month, likely due to warming seas and atmosphere holding more water. How is our economy going to sustain repeated losses of this magnitude?

Is your solution to just pretend it is not going to be an issue? If we pretend, then I agree that it is "hysteria".

 

[yesrutgers01]

VKJ, I'm curious as to why you believe CTE is real? I ask because the science behind CTE and Tau in general isn't that well understood, and if I recall correctly (perhaps a poor assumption) you're a physician, no?

Genuinely interested in your answer because I don't know enough about validity of CTE (although I personally think it's somewhat moot as I'm comfortable with the idea that repeated head injuries are a bad thing) and agree with everything else in your post.

CTE is very real and it is terrifying. I think that gets misunderstood is that you get it from concussions...that is not always the case. A player's brain is getting rattled on every single play. Now, at younger ages, I just don't think they are getting hit hard enough on plays to really do damage. That is why I would let my son play up through high school. But if I ever had a choice again, no fracking way would I want them to play College or NFL.
BTW- I am sure there is just as much CTE in soccer, hockey, boxing, etc...it is not just limited to football. I also don't think CTE makes a monster like A.H. but it makes people have much less control over their moods and emotions.

 

[RU-ROCS]

Whatever. Kind of like . . . "I'm a gay, Muslim, immigrant black woman and I support Trump." ;)

 

[WhiteBus]

Spot on, t. Even if no other football players had CTE, that is still enough of the total cohort to be highly unusual compared to the general population.
.

If we actually knew what the total population % was your statement might be true. But we don't.

 

[SkilletHead2]

If we actually knew what the total population % was your statement might be true. But we don't.

True enough. But the issue is trickier than that. If you haven't experienced knocks to the head, you basically cannot have CTE by definition. You could have tau build-up, which can be caused by other things as well.

Determining tau build-up in the general population would not be hard to do at all, as lots of folks donate their bodies to medical science at death. And I'm guessing we will find that old NFL players have somewhere around 10-100 times the likelihood of tau build-up than your average person. But we'll see.

That said, with almost all of the donated brains showing tau build-up, it's a pretty safe conclusion to draw that this is far more prevalent than in the general population, even if this sample is biased. You have to go on the best evidence you have until more evidence is in. To conclude we know nothing at this point is sticking your head in the sand (which, if you do it really hard, could give you a concussion).

 

[kapyoche]

We have guns that kill millions.
We have drugs that kill millions
We have cars that kill millions.
We have religions that kill millions.

We have football that kills a handful.

Let's keep football and eliminate guns, drugs, cars and religion.

 

[theRU]

The drug use correlation is interesting since I think it would be fair to assume a higher % of use in these athletes.

 

[ashokan]

We have guns that kill millions.
We have drugs that kill millions
We have cars that kill millions.
We have religions that kill millions.

We have football that kills a handful.

Let's keep football and eliminate guns, drugs, cars and religion.

You left out the communists.

 

[ashokan]

That said, with almost all of the donated brains showing tau build-up, it's a pretty safe conclusion to draw that this is far more prevalent than in the general population, even if this sample is biased. You have to go on the best evidence you have until more evidence is in. To conclude we know nothing at this point is sticking your head in the sand (which, if you do it really hard, could give you a concussion).

If I recall correctly, the brains of NFL players were given over for study because the relatives had observed behavioral deterioration in their deceased relatives. No surprise many of them might show some issue

I wonder how many of the players were black since they are 1.5x more likely to have issues with diabetes. Diabetes, glucose, tau etc are all wrapped up in brain issues



"Low glucose in brain may trigger Alzheimer’s disease: study"

Glucose deprivation in the brain may trigger the onset of cognitive decline, especially memory impairment — the earliest signs of Alzheimer’s disease, say scientists who have also found a protein that may be targeted to treat the disorder.

The hippocampus plays a key role in processing and storing memories. However, it relies exclusively on glucose for fuel—without glucose, neurons starve and eventually die.

The new study is the first to directly link memory impairment to glucose deprivation in the brain specifically through a mechanism involving the accumulation of a protein known as Phosphorylated tau.

“Phosphorylated tau precipitates and aggregates in the brain, forming tangles and inducing neuronal death,” said Domenico Pratico, Professor at Temple University in the US...

The findings also show that chronically occurring, small episodes of glucose deprivation are damaging for the brain.

“There is a high likelihood that those types of episodes are related to diabetes, which is a condition in which glucose cannot enter the cell,” he said.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...r-alzheimers-disease-study/article9515115.ece

 

[RutgersRockies]

Brain Scientist?

Is that anything like Rocket Surgeon?

I am sad you did not read my previous post.

 

[SkilletHead2]

If I recall correctly, the brains of NFL players were given over for study because the relatives had observed behavioral deterioration in their deceased relatives. No surprise many of them might show some issue

I wonder how many of the players were black since they are 1.5x more likely to have issues with diabetes. Diabetes, glucose, tau etc are all wrapped up in brain issues



"Low glucose in brain may trigger Alzheimer’s disease: study"

Glucose deprivation in the brain may trigger the onset of cognitive decline, especially memory impairment — the earliest signs of Alzheimer’s disease, say scientists who have also found a protein that may be targeted to treat the disorder.

The hippocampus plays a key role in processing and storing memories. However, it relies exclusively on glucose for fuel—without glucose, neurons starve and eventually die.

The new study is the first to directly link memory impairment to glucose deprivation in the brain specifically through a mechanism involving the accumulation of a protein known as Phosphorylated tau.

“Phosphorylated tau precipitates and aggregates in the brain, forming tangles and inducing neuronal death,” said Domenico Pratico, Professor at Temple University in the US...

The findings also show that chronically occurring, small episodes of glucose deprivation are damaging for the brain.

“There is a high likelihood that those types of episodes are related to diabetes, which is a condition in which glucose cannot enter the cell,” he said.


http://www.thehindubusinessline.com...r-alzheimers-disease-study/article9515115.ece

The article isn't sufficiently clear on just how the brains were solicited, but for certain it seems that all donated brains were from athletes who had shown cognitive issues or behavioral issues (about 50/50), so the sample bias is not only there, it's strong. With 110 of 111 NFL players studied showing CTE, the question becomes what the denominator of the population from which these were drawn would be. One reasonable stat would be all NFL players who died within the time frame of the study. If, say, (and I'm guessing based on the 8 year time frame of data collection), the total were 1000 players, then 11% would be a lower bound on the prevalence, irrespective of the bias. 79% of the sample was white, 19% African American. The article reports that about 2/3 of the players who initially developed mood or behavioral disorders (about half the sample) had substance abuse issues, but did not report this on the other half (whose initial symptoms were cognitive).

The article you've linked is on Alzheimer's, so a bit hard to see the link. Also, the article in JAMA doesn't say whether substance abuse caused mood problems, or whether CTE is causal of drug usage. The JAMA could have been a bit more detailed.

 

[RUnewjersey]

I love that he calls himself A brain scientist. That alone is laughable, but his claims are even more ridiculous.

 

[late knight]

Congratulations. I commend you for one of the most ignorant posts of the year.

I would bet you don't even realize we are far better off if the current global warming is man-influenced than if it isn't. At least, if it is, we can try to do something about it. If it is not, we are totally screwed.

Wondering what you think the solution will be when the winter snow packs of the west shrink to the extent that cities like Los Angeles have no water to tap during the late summer months.

Maybe you would like to tell me what solutions you have when the US "breadbasket of the world" gets too hot and dry to sustain the current abundance of wheat and corn that we now use to supply the world.

Wondering how expensive you think it might be to our economy when the cities along the coast where 50% of our population resides become waterlogged due to rising sea level. A rise of 10 meters, which is currently under the scientific prediction for the next century will inundate at least 50% or Florida.

Perhaps you think carbon dioxide is not that strong a green-house gas. But it does acidify the oceans. What is your solution to the fact that increased acidity will gradually weaken the shells of most of our sea food. It apparently is already affecting coral.

Not even mentioned the fact that we witnessed well over $200 billion dollars, including our territories, in damage due to increased storm intensity this past month, likely due to warming seas and atmosphere holding more water. How is our economy going to sustain repeated losses of this magnitude?

Is your solution to just pretend it is not going to be an issue? If we pretend, then I agree that it is "hysteria".

Congratulations. I commend you for one of the most ignorant posts of the year.

I would bet you don't even realize we are far better off if the current global warming is man-influenced than if it isn't. At least, if it is, we can try to do something about it. If it is not, we are totally screwed.

Wondering what you think the solution will be when the winter snow packs of the west shrink to the extent that cities like Los Angeles have no water to tap during the late summer months.

Maybe you would like to tell me what solutions you have when the US "breadbasket of the world" gets too hot and dry to sustain the current abundance of wheat and corn that we now use to supply the world.

Wondering how expensive you think it might be to our economy when the cities along the coast where 50% of our population resides become waterlogged due to rising sea level. A rise of 10 meters, which is currently under the scientific prediction for the next century will inundate at least 50% or Florida.

Perhaps you think carbon dioxide is not that strong a green-house gas. But it does acidify the oceans. What is your solution to the fact that increased acidity will gradually weaken the shells of most of our sea food. It apparently is already affecting coral.

Not even mentioned the fact that we witnessed well over $200 billion dollars, including our territories, in damage due to increased storm intensity this past month, likely due to warming seas and atmosphere holding more water. How is our economy going to sustain repeated losses of this magnitude?

Is your solution to just pretend it is not going to be an issue? If we pretend, then I agree that it is "hysteria".

 

[RU5781]

Loyal-Son needs to lay off the meth.

 

[RUScrew85]

Congratulations. I commend you for one of the most ignorant posts of the year.

I would bet you don't even realize we are far better off if the current global warming is man-influenced than if it isn't. At least, if it is, we can try to do something about it. If it is not, we are totally screwed.

Wondering what you think the solution will be when the winter snow packs of the west shrink to the extent that cities like Los Angeles have no water to tap during the late summer months.

Maybe you would like to tell me what solutions you have when the US "breadbasket of the world" gets too hot and dry to sustain the current abundance of wheat and corn that we now use to supply the world.

Wondering how expensive you think it might be to our economy when the cities along the coast where 50% of our population resides become waterlogged due to rising sea level. A rise of 10 meters, which is currently under the scientific prediction for the next century will inundate at least 50% or Florida.

Perhaps you think carbon dioxide is not that strong a green-house gas. But it does acidify the oceans. What is your solution to the fact that increased acidity will gradually weaken the shells of most of our sea food. It apparently is already affecting coral.

Not even mentioned the fact that we witnessed well over $200 billion dollars, including our territories, in damage due to increased storm intensity this past month, likely due to warming seas and atmosphere holding more water. How is our economy going to sustain repeated losses of this magnitude?

Is your solution to just pretend it is not going to be an issue? If we pretend, then I agree that it is "hysteria".

LOL. Climates change over time you dope. Man doesn't cause it.

Bonus question: What is the correct temp and climate for the planet which you seem to think is supposed to never change?

Second Bonus Question: What effect does water vapor in the atmosphere have on temperature and how does that compare to CO2?

And again, you're a dope.

 

[RUfubar]

This is dirty science. Common sense tells us that football is a more dangerous game than bowling.
It is a huge stretch scientifically to claim and prove that football causes a distinct clinical and pathological entity in a significant proportion of those playing at a certain level for an certain period of time. The diagnosis of concussion has become so problematic for a variety of reasons - medicolegally,
subjective bias, coding bias, secondary gain. Lots of stuff. So linking concussion with CTE is frought with difficulties.Think about performing a pure study that controlled for all the vast variables that can affect CNS brain tau deposition (meds,smoking, genetics,environment, medical illness, infection, trauma - physical, psychological, hormonal,et.al).Such a clean study to prove or disprove a sole,specific causal relationship with football alone would seem to be improbable. I am surprised that this uproar hasn't been heard as much in the military sector before...lots of concussive exposure there. As a physician, I would not stop my son from playing football if that was his passion. I would worry - of course. But, back in the 1970s - we were being taught how to spear tackle with our heads, ingest salt tablets, share mud infested water out of a common jug during triple sessions, and had ill fitting equipment. I don't remember any parents complaining.Maybe they should have, but that's a different story.

 

[yesrutgers01]

CTE or not, most of these guys would still play regardless.

Absolutely true