OT: Nabisco plant in Fair Lawn off 208 to close

[Frida's Boss]

Nothing against Mexico or any other country, but I am not looking to compete with them on lowest wage. I would however like to stop my taxes from paying for Medicaid for employees of companies who think slave wages are appropriate.

And the proposed increase is over several years. Not to go to $15 tomorrow.

Kind of like a few years ago when NJ passed a referendum to tie the minimum wage increase to inflation. The world was supposed to end and of course it didn't.

This was written by Buffett in 2015, and is still the best solution, in my opinion.

Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage

Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

www.wsj.com

For those unable to access the above link, below is a summary (his own written words are far better, though).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/25/warren-buffett-best-way-to-put-cash-in-pockets-of-people-who-need-it.html

 

[tom1944]

This was written by Buffett in 2015, and is still the best solution, in my opinion.

Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage

Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

www.wsj.com

For those unable to access the above link, below is a summary (his own written words are far better, though).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/25/warren-buffett-best-way-to-put-cash-in-pockets-of-people-who-need-it.html

How do we pay for the expansion. Additional businesses taxes or increased income taxes? Or do we just add it to the debt?

 

[mdk01]

This was written by Buffett in 2015, and is still the best solution, in my opinion.

Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage

Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

www.wsj.com

For those unable to access the above link, below is a summary (his own written words are far better, though).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/25/warren-buffett-best-way-to-put-cash-in-pockets-of-people-who-need-it.html

1. I wonder how Mondelez, a large corporation required to provide health insurance, had anyone on Medicaid in Fair Lawn.

2. Buffett is reasonable, and it can be tied to the number of dependents and be gradually phased out. And I don't think you wouldn't need to raise the corporate tax rate to 28% to cover it, let alone 35% which was an outlier from any other First World or Second World country. 25% would probably do it. And that would be helped if that increase was tied to the goal Yellen stated in her confirmation hearing of tying any increase to a world-wide agreement to harmonize rates.

 

[Frida's Boss]

How do we pay for the expansion. Additional businesses taxes or increased income taxes? Or do we just add it to the debt?

How would it happen? It would be added to annual deficits, but it would have some offsetting stimulative benefit. Closing the income gap is important, and will occur. History is definitive on that point. The preferred method would be peaceful through government action. The other method is, shall we say, far messier and less pleasant.

Personally,I’ve for years advocated for a bipartisan approach to deficit mitigation so that debt to GDP would decline to more sustainable levels. That would involve certain sacrifices by both sides, such as tax rate increases and spending reductions for “sacred cow” initiatives. But that will take this discussion further into politics. I am certain, however, that debt and deficits do matter. As a country, we just haven’t reached the markets threshold for credit concerns. But we are merrily marching along that course,

 

[mdk01]

How would it happen? It would be added to annual deficits, but it would have some offsetting stimulative benefit. Closing the income gap is important, and will occur. History is definitive on that point. The preferred method would be peaceful through government action. The other method is, shall we say, far messier and less pleasant.

Personally,I’ve for years advocated for a bipartisan approach to deficit mitigation so that debt to GDP would decline to more sustainable levels. That would involve certain sacrifices by both sides, such as tax rate increases and spending reductions for “sacred cow” initiatives. But that will take this discussion further into politics. I am certain, however, that debt and deficits do matter. As a country, we just haven’t reached the markets threshold for credit concerns. But we are merrily marching along that course,

The biggest sacred cow nobody will touch is Social Security. It used to be that between ages 65 (now 66) and 70 if you still worked and made over a certain amount the amount of Social Security you collected would be reduced, sometimes by a payback. No more.

 

[Frida's Boss]

The biggest sacred cow nobody will touch is Social Security. It used to be that between ages 65 (now 66) and 70 if you still worked and made over a certain amount the amount of Social Security you collected would be reduced, sometimes by a payback. No more.

Perhaps. In my view, , we can either choose now or deal with the decisions imposed by the infamous bond vigilantes.

 

[LETSGORU91]

We used to run the Morris County Cross Country Championships there for years. I still have the course record since they stopped using it in the 90's I think

It looks like they used the Nabisco site up until 2005 and the course record was broken that year. If you time was from 1991, you are sitting in second place all time. Quite impressive.

 

[newell138]

It looks like they used the Nabisco site up until 2005 and the course record was broken that year. If you time was from 1991, you are sitting in second place all time. Quite impressive.

My time was set in 1980, 15:51

Cross Country Champs History Boys

www.mctrack.org

 

[LETSGORU91]

My time was set in 1980, 15:51

Cross Country Champs History Boys

www.mctrack.org

That's awesome and a great time. The list I saw dated back to 1986 only. My sister ran for Dover in the early 80s. I ran XC my senior year only in the late 80s.

 

[newell138]

That's awesome and a great time. The list I saw dated back to 1986 only. My sister ran for Dover in the early 80s. I ran XC my senior year only in the late 80s.

Is Lynn Puchalski your sister? She’s the only girl I remember from Dover and of course the legend Wayne Valentine

 

[LETSGORU91]

Is Lynn Puchalski your sister? She’s the only girl I remember from Dover and of course the legend Wayne Valentine

Message me on here.

 

[Knight177lb]

IL is #2 in property taxes, right behind NJ. OR is 23 and GA 26. So no great discount.

How High Are Property Taxes in Your State?

New Jersey has the highest effective rate on owner-occupied property at 2.21 percent, followed closely by Illinois (2.05 percent) and New Hampshire (2.03 percent).

taxfoundation.org

.

We're #1 in property taxes. That says it all. That's not an incentive for companies to start here or stay here. As long as we stay #1, jobs will keep leaving.

 

[brgRC90]

The reasons why a plant close doubtless vary but does anyone consider that maybe just maybe sometimes businesses are blaming taxes and politicians when the real reason is something else simply in order to curry favor with the public?

 

[BROTHERSKINNY]

Everything in life has consequences so the saying goes . Just realize this is a great opportunity for us to fund the World . An all in kind of society where one is free to come and go as they so choose never having to worry about anything.

Like in Wall-E?

 

[King of S]

The reasons why a plant close doubtless vary but does anyone consider that maybe just maybe sometimes businesses are blaming taxes and politicians when the real reason is something else simply in order to curry favor with the public?

Bingo - called lower worker wages south of the border.

 

[CERU00]

Bingo - called lower worker wages south of the border.

Also minimal environmental regs.

 

[mdk01]

Also minimal environmental regs.

The smell of 'Nilla Wafers is an environmental hazard? We're not talking about a chemical plant here.

 

[RU#1fan]

Nothing against Mexico or any other country, but I am not looking to compete with them on lowest wage. I would however like to stop my taxes from paying for Medicaid for employees of companies who think slave wages are appropriate.

And the proposed increase is over several years. Not to go to $15 tomorrow.

Kind of like a few years ago when NJ passed a referendum to tie the minimum wage increase to inflation. The world was supposed to end and of course it didn't.

I think I read that 35% of Wal Mart employees are on food stamps.
Never will shop there.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

Do you think that Mondelez is not performing any QC as to consistency to standards? Oreo is a prime brand.

That's true but the annual "productivity goal" AKA CUT THE COST is always there. Remember the old buttery tasting Ritz vs. the new dry crumbly version?
But as long as the milk is still good they'll be fine :)

True story. The woman I car pooled with was put in a leadership role to start moving this production years ago. Her wife worked at the Phila plant that she helped close. Somehow the marriage went forward.

 

[RUInsanity]

That's true but the annual "productivity goal" AKA CUT THE COST is always there. Remember the old buttery tasting Ritz vs. the new dry crumbly version?
But as long as the milk is still good they'll be fine :)

True story. The woman I car pooled with was put in a leadership role to start moving this production years ago. Her wife worked at the Phila plant that she helped close. Somehow the marriage went forward.

"Cut the Cost" will always be there when dealing with most companies - especially those beholden to stock holders. The wage difference in Mexico vs NJ alone is probably driving this decision (workers are probably getting the equivalent of $1 per hour in Mexico). Food companies can only go so far with cost cutting on quality as there is too much competition. One of the things I've noticed they are doing however is also reducing package sizes or quantities. For instance, Oreo "thins" lol.

 

[DennisHajekRC84]

"Cut the Cost" will always be there when dealing with most companies - especially those beholden to stock holders. The wage difference in Mexico vs NJ alone is probably driving this decision (workers are probably getting the equivalent of $1 per hour in Mexico). Food companies can only go so far with cost cutting on quality as there is too much competition. One of the things I've noticed they are doing however is also reducing package sizes or quantities. For instance, Oreo "thins" lol.

It was most certainly driven by wages and taxes. "Downsizing" packaging vs. Pricing action under the veil of "Portion Control" has always been a strategic play.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Because the average factory worker can learn to write code and compete against low wage H1b workers from India?? Not happening in most cases.

To write code, no, but do other things in other fields with massive need (eg healthcare), yes.

The idea that the taxpayers and consumers have a responsibility or duty to overpay so that people can avoid retraining is pretty backwards.

 

[NotInRHouse]

This was written by Buffett in 2015, and is still the best solution, in my opinion.

Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage

Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

www.wsj.com

For those unable to access the above link, below is a summary (his own written words are far better, though).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/25/warren-buffett-best-way-to-put-cash-in-pockets-of-people-who-need-it.html

There are lots of really good ways to protect workers. I just don't think forcing Nabisco or others to keep manufacturing in the US is one. We probably agree on that.

 

[NotInRHouse]

We're #1 in property taxes. That says it all. That's not an incentive for companies to start here or stay here. As long as we stay #1, jobs will keep leaving.

If this were true, there wouldn't be lines outside open houses in Montclair and elsewhere in the middle of a pandemic.

Property taxes are correlated with cost of property which is simple supply and demand. For example I am sure few people would expect Texas to be #7, but it makes sense. If you have a lot of affluent home buyers coming in, it drives the value of property up, and those people will typically come with an expectation of good schools and services. Which makes sense in NJ. We don't have much land in the most desirable places and we do have a lot of really good public schools and an extensive public transportation network.

I always hear NJ is driving people out, yet the population continually increases and I don't think it's just people having a lot of babies. The cost of real estate has also surged on top of it.

 

[rudad02]

I think I read that 35% of Wal Mart employees are on food stamps.
Never will shop there.

Don't shop there either.

 

[Frida's Boss]

There are lots of really good ways to protect workers. I just don't think forcing Nabisco or others to keep manufacturing in the US is one. We probably agree on that.

Yeah, I think so. It’s the issue with globalization, though. The benefits of lower priced Nila Wafers will be spread across millions of boxes across the country. Each purchaser will save only a little bit, but the benefits in aggregate will be large. Unfortunately, the costs of closing the plant are not diffused and borne more directly by the former plant employees. That’s where the government needs to help, if those displaced employees aren’t able to find work at comparable wages. We haven’t provided enough of that assistance, which has led to to misplaced anger towards globalization that’s been seized upon by populists from both sides.

 

[CERU00]

To write code, no, but do other things in other fields with massive need (eg healthcare), yes.

The idea that the taxpayers and consumers have a responsibility or duty to overpay so that people can avoid retraining is pretty backwards.

Except for mi

Yeah, I think so. It’s the issue with globalization, though. The benefits of lower priced Nila Wafers will be spread across millions of boxes across the country. Each purchaser will save only a little bit, but the benefits in aggregate will be large. Unfortunately, the costs of closing the plant are not diffused and borne more directly by the former plant employees. That’s where the government needs to help, if those displaced employees aren’t able to find work at comparable wages. We haven’t provided enough of that assistance, which has led to to misplaced anger towards globalization that’s been seized upon by populists from both sides.

No, the problem is the hypocrisy. We complain about wages here and want high minimum wages for all work to protect the worker, yet we applaud the globalization that gives these same jobs to countries where workers are truly exploited and where our environmental protections are not the law of the land. All to save a few bucks. The average American will have fewer and fewer options...mostly retail. On the other end Americans workers are being forced to compete against the endless influx of legal and illegal immigration that further pushes wages down for the remaining jobs. What government help is going to replace a good paying manufacturing job? The answer for the least educated will increasingly be welfare, foodstamps and section 8.

 

[Knight177lb]

If this were true, there wouldn't be lines outside open houses in Montclair and elsewhere in the middle of a pandemic.

Property taxes are correlated with cost of property which is simple supply and demand. For example I am sure few people would expect Texas to be #7, but it makes sense. If you have a lot of affluent home buyers coming in, it drives the value of property up, and those people will typically come with an expectation of good schools and services. Which makes sense in NJ. We don't have much land in the most desirable places and we do have a lot of really good public schools and an extensive public transportation network.

I always hear NJ is driving people out, yet the population continually increases and I don't think it's just people having a lot of babies. The cost of real estate has also surged on top of it.

Yes, that's true. Property taxes are correlated with the value of the property. I would be fine with paying the highest taxes if we had the highest valued property, but we have the highest taxes in the country as a percentage of the value at 2.21%. Even that wouldn't be so bad if we paid less in other areas such as state income tax, but we don't.

I also hear that NJ is driving people out and I find it strange that despite all the people I know who are moving or are planning on moving, the population of the state keeps on rising and more farm land is converted to housing. I guess there's a lot of people like me who love the state, but want to stay and fight for lower taxes.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

This was written by Buffett in 2015, and is still the best solution, in my opinion.

Better Than Raising the Minimum Wage

Help Americans who need it with a major, carefully crafted expansion of the Earned Income Tax Credit.

www.wsj.com

For those unable to access the above link, below is a summary (his own written words are far better, though).

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/25/warren-buffett-best-way-to-put-cash-in-pockets-of-people-who-need-it.html

let them eat fries.

.

 

[satnom]

Let’s be honest about these multi-National conglomerates buying up nostalgic American snack brands that are totally unhealthy processed foods with artificial preservatives, sugar, sodium and a ton of other GMO by products which are selling less in our markets and moving production lines to lower cost areas and sold to less health conscious markets. Lots of these products we devoured as kids are just plain not good for you. Kind of the way tobacco companies started selling more of their products in Asian and Latin American markets once the US government got behind the science of smoking kills you.

Sorry to hear anytime when jobs are eliminated but hopefully another growing food manufacturing company comes in and provides new opportunities.

GO RU

 

[Frida's Boss]

Except for mi

No, the problem is the hypocrisy. We complain about wages here and want high minimum wages for all work to protect the worker, yet we applaud the globalization that gives these same jobs to countries where workers are truly exploited and where our environmental protections are not the law of the land. All to save a few bucks. The average American will have fewer and fewer options...mostly retail. On the other end Americans workers are being forced to compete against the endless influx of legal and illegal immigration that further pushes wages down for the remaining jobs. What government help is going to replace a good paying manufacturing job? The answer for the least educated will increasingly be welfare, foodstamps and section 8.

Well, that’s why I find Buffett’s EITF thoughts compelling. Delivering a comparable income to lower wage earners while still affording some semblance of cost relevancy seems like a good solution as opposed to increasing the minimum wage.

You point out some criticisms of globalization, and I don’t doubt that some are very real. That said, in my view, they pale in comparison to the benefits of lower cost and more international stability and cooperation. But the concern regarding manufacturing jobs is a bit misleading, as we actually make more domestically than we ever have before. Yes, manufacturing is a lower share of the economy now, but the real culprit behind job losses is automation and that’s not ever reversing, so, I do think the government does need to provide assistance or support to displaced workers. Some of the
assistance is in the form of higher unemployment benefits, but it also must come from support for displaced workers to develop relevant skills for today’s workplace, too. That’s critical, in my view,

 

[Frida's Boss]

let them eat fries.

.

You’re picking the wrong target to compare to Marie Antoinette, that’s for sure.

 

[tom1944]

Well, that’s why I find Buffett’s EITF thoughts compelling. Delivering a comparable income to lower wage earners while still affording some semblance of cost relevancy seems like a good solution as opposed to increasing the minimum wage.

You point out some criticisms of globalization, and I don’t doubt that some are very real. That said, in my view, they pale in comparison to the benefits of lower cost and more international stability and cooperation. But the concern regarding manufacturing jobs is a bit misleading, as we actually make more domestically than we ever have before. Yes, manufacturing is a lower share of the economy now, but the real culprit behind job losses is automation and that’s not ever reversing, so, I do think the government does need to provide assistance or support to displaced workers. Some of the
assistance is in the form of higher unemployment benefits, but it also must come from support for displaced workers to develop relevant skills for today’s workplace, too. That’s critical, in my view,

I have read that we are still number one in the world for the high end manufacturing. It is the cheap stuff that left

 

[NotInRHouse]

Yes, that's true. Property taxes are correlated with the value of the property. I would be fine with paying the highest taxes if we had the highest valued property, but we have the highest taxes in the country as a percentage of the value at 2.21%. Even that wouldn't be so bad if we paid less in other areas such as state income tax, but we don't.

I also hear that NJ is driving people out and I find it strange that despite all the people I know who are moving or are planning on moving, the population of the state keeps on rising and more farm land is converted to housing. I guess there's a lot of people like me who love the state, but want to stay and fight for lower taxes.

My guess is we're close to the top in property value.

There's also plenty of states with higher income taxes (NY, CA, OR) and it's cheaper to live in NJ and work in NYC than to live in NY, about the same to live in NJ and work in Philly with the Philly income tax. In general, there's no real free ride. Some states have lower income taxes but then higher sales taxes. The "freest" ride is probably a job with a NY or CA salary but then living in a state that is able to eliminate income tax on tourism revenue (FL, NV) or has built a niche in corporations (DE, WA) or oil (AK, TX). With post COVID changes there will be more of that.

But people don't leave NJ because of the intangibles. Yeah, it's expensive, though not the most expensive, but it also offers great jobs, schools, geography, topography, culture...I mean right across the river if you're willing to take the journey the PA income tax is 3.07% no matter your income- PA property taxes are no bargain- but there's no rush to move there and PA is also not making serious gains in population.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

You’re picking the wrong target to compare to Marie Antoinette, that’s for sure.

not if you or Buffett are pushing a tax credit vs a living wage.

 

[i'vegotwinners]

Except for mi

No, the problem is the hypocrisy. We complain about wages here and want high minimum wages for all work to protect the worker, yet we applaud the globalization that gives these same jobs to countries where workers are truly exploited and where our environmental protections are not the law of the land. All to save a few bucks. The average American will have fewer and fewer options...mostly retail. On the other end Americans workers are being forced to compete against the endless influx of legal and illegal immigration that further pushes wages down for the remaining jobs. What government help is going to replace a good paying manufacturing job? The answer for the least educated will increasingly be welfare, foodstamps and section 8.

totally agree that we need to bring manufacturing back on shore, not only for the jobs and tax bases, but to protect our supply chains in everything.

only Wall St, the investor class, and those doing their bidding, applaud globalization.

China now owns us.

 

[PSU_Nut]

It began in NJ as soon as they made it law despite it taking 4 years to gradually take effect. McDonalds immediatley installed the self serve kiosks for ordering and my local ShopRite tripled the amount of self serve checkouts. Politicians deny this will affect jobs but anyone could predict what is happening.

Same thing happened in PA at grocery stores and McDonald’s. The minimum wage in PA is still $7.25. If you think this has anything to do with minimum wage you are clueless.

 

[mdk01]

The argument should consider a few things from the OMB report, the Biden Administration OMB I might add, on the expected effects of and increase:

* Lifts 900,000 out of poverty
* Expected job losses of 1.8 million
* Increases the budget deficit.

 

[tom1944]

The argument should consider a few things from the OMB report, the Biden Administration OMB I might add, on the expected effects of and increase:

* Lifts 900,000 out of poverty
* Expected job losses of 1.8 million
* Increases the budget deficit.

How does that 900,000 square with the 1.8 million?

Is it an additional 900,000 out of poverty after some of the 1.8 million are driven into poverty by their job loss?

 

[mdk01]

How does that 900,000 square with the 1.8 million?

Is it an additional 900,000 out of poverty after some of the 1.8 million are driven into poverty by their job loss?

The 1.8 million might be working poor. Those are the jobs that will be hit the hardest by the minimum wage increase.