OT- quick traffic court question for tonight

[DHajekRC84]

my daughter got a ticket for failure to yield to pedestrians in crosswalk. $230 plus 2 points.
claims it was a bogus ticket but none the less. I ran into a police officer who said pleas not guilty, show up and discuss with the prosecutor to try and get reduced offense.

So my simple question is this. (and I know it is late to be asking)...but how does that work? Do I just get there early and hope to grab him/her and discuss quickly on the side? Since they will be hearing cases I am not sure how I have that discussion and not just wind up having her case heard. If that is the matter we'll just plead guilty then.

Thoughts from the great minds here?

 

[DJ Spanky]

Usually most traffic courts have that setup - you plead not guilty, then talk with the prosecutor about downgrading the citation. Trust me, it's probably not best to argue it was a bogus ticket - that does not sell well. Plus I believe that sometimes the officers will actually be there.

 

[DHajekRC84]

oh definitely not going to argue that point Spank. Just looking for some consideration. Kid's first ticket. Just saying I trust it was not a black & white infraction..otherwise it would be treated as a FULL lesson learned.

 

[RUmaz]

Most times you can eliminate the points but it will increase the fine.

 

[DHajekRC84]

Most times you can eliminate the points but it will increase the fine.

also what I thought. Thanks.

 

[TreyA]

Yes, show up early. The prosecutor is usually made available to speak to outside the courtroom. Tell him you're willing to plead guilty to a lesser charge that does not include points. They will agree and you'll never see the inside of the courtroom.

 

[fischy5000]

Most times you can eliminate the points but it will increase the fine.

Yep. The makeup for losing the points (which is probably most peoples concern) is the fine going up (even a couple hundred more many times).

Who knows how true and common it is, but sometimes the courts/prosecutors office will give better deals to people with lawyers (kind of a keep the food chain in place mentality). I'm not saying go out and get a random lawyer for this, but if you had a family friend available.

 

[Knight Shift]

my daughter got a ticket for failure to yield to pedestrians in crosswalk. $230 plus 2 points.
claims it was a bogus ticket but none the less. I ran into a police officer who said pleas not guilty, show up and discuss with the prosecutor to try and get reduced offense.

So my simple question is this. (and I know it is late to be asking)...but how does that work? Do I just get there early and hope to grab him/her and discuss quickly on the side? Since they will be hearing cases I am not sure how I have that discussion and not just wind up having her case heard. If that is the matter we'll just plead guilty then.

Thoughts from the great minds here?

What everyone else said. It helps, but is not necessary, to have an attorney who knows the prosecutor. I am a patent attorney, and I once went to traffic court on behalf of my mother on a totally bogus ticket. I started with the argument route, and it was not going well. I was polite, and when I saw the argument was not going to work, I said how about some offense that carried a $25 fine and no points. Mind you, my mother had been driving for nearly 60 years and never had a traffic violation, and she was incensed. The prosecutor looked at me when I made the request--I looked at him and said that my mommy was going to be very mad if I got anything less for her. He laughed out loud, and said, "Sure, OK." Lesson learned--don't argue. You have to play the game, unfortunately.

 

[RU62]

Unfortunately the reduced plea is all part of a fund raising scheme that apparently was initiated by the McGreavey administration. In effect you pay a higher fine for a downgraded guilty plea that carries no or less points. Anyone who has gone thru this process or have seen it operate in court knows what I mean. Only in NJ! And of course there have been complaints regarding baited police setups to trap crosswalk violators. And yes there are legitimate violations as well as people who pay no attention when they are crossing the street in which case perhaps they should also be cited and fined.

 

[RUScrew85]

I've seen lines before court waiting to talk to the Prosecutor. Get there early to be sure you have a chance to talk to him before your case is called.

 

[DJ Spanky]

I've seen lines before court waiting to talk to the Prosecutor. Get there early to be sure you have a chance to talk to him before your case is called.

^^^ This. ^^^

For some townships, this is BIG business.

Also, since it's your daughter's first ticket, you might be able to play the wink, wink, nudge, nudge with the prosecutor in terms of her "learning a lesson".

 

[DHajekRC84]

yes thanks all. This is all consistent with what I thought was the process, the watch-outs, the bogus nature of the ticket process, and the likely outcome. Now just have to go and see and decide if her paying the (likely) higher fine is worth getting rid of 2 points that will expire in a year anyway.

 

[DHajekRC84]

^^^ This. ^^^

For some townships, this is BIG business.

Also, since it's your daughter's first ticket, you might be able to play the wink, wink, nudge, nudge with the prosecutor in terms of her "learning a lesson".

she worked at the restuarant in town for 2 years. right near the site of the "crime" lol. going to use that fact too. not just some kid speeding by..but well aware of the location and crosswalk.

 

[RUmaz]

I thought points lasted 3 years but I could be mistaken

 

[Crazed_RU]

Points on the license isn't that big a deal if your insurance company forgives them. Some insurance companies will give a break for long time customers with good records. As far as the state is concerned, points fall off 2 a year as long as there are no other offenses. You can also take an Internet safe driving course to have 2 points removed. You also get an insurance decrease for that same course.

 

[e5fdny]

* Have her be polite, appropriately attired and you throw in the "teaching moment" thing when you have the conversation with the prosecutor as others have said.

* Worked for a young Sailor who hit us while back. Was from down south and up here on leave just visiting a shipmate. We told him to wear his uniform, give all yes sir, no sir's and we spoke to the prosecutor beforehand on his behalf. He got something but not nearly as bad as it could have been.

Good luck.

 

[mdk01]

Only in NJ!

Surely you jest

 

[RUsojo]

In my experience points typically have no standing with an insurance company. If the event stays on your record it will be rated on and impact your policy once the current policy term ends.

 

[Source]

In New Brunswick traffic court, you announce your arrival in the court room (don't be late, late people sometimes gets reported to the court judge before your case comes up). They tell you to have a seat in court. Then before they get under way, folks are asked if they are pleading guilty or not guilty. The not guilties are told to line up to the door just outside of the court and take their plea to the prosecutor. As others have said, be respectful when stating your case to the prosecutor. Whether he refuses or alters the penalty involved, you will still have to sit in court waiting for your case to be heard. After you are sworn in, the judge will announce any changes the prosecutor has agreed to.

In New Brunswick, being on time is being there by 4:45 pm. My parking ticket was dismissed around 9:30 pm. You can read when court is not in session. Otherwise, you are expected to quietly sit there and do nothing.

If you wind up paying a fine, make sure you bring a check and your credit card. Check with the court what methods of payment they take.

 

[ru66]

that's why cabs in NYC yield to those in crosswalks--from the law's point of view she ran a red light--in nyc there are police traps everywhere for this "offense'--and there's no hope at a court appearance

 

[ScarletSam]

I would just pay the fine and take the two points. Every year that goes by without an infraction three points are taken away. Your insurance company probably offers a defensive driving course online that will reduce the two points to zero.

In order to reduce those two points to zero you will likely have to plead guilty to unsafe driving and they are going to charge you a huge surcharge $450+. I don't think your insurance is going to increase by that much because of a ticket.

With that said, it might be too late to simply pay the ticket and you might be stuck going to court anyways.

 

[PurpleR]

A couple of things. Has she contacted the court administrator and advised them that she is pleading not guilty. If so they usually get to skip the arraignment and are given a court dates for the case, if not normally the only thing that occurs the first court is a determination of whether you are pleading guilty or not and if pleading not guilty are assigned another court date for the case. Second, once that is established and you get your court date at that point is when you usually have the opportunity to discuss the issue with the prosecutor. If she does not get to meet with the prosecutor before things get going it could be a long night as in most courts (not all) the cases that have an attorney are heard first, so if you do not have an attorney you may be there awhile.

 

[TreyA]

yes thanks all. This is all consistent with what I thought was the process, the watch-outs, the bogus nature of the ticket process, and the likely outcome. Now just have to go and see and decide if her paying the (likely) higher fine is worth getting rid of 2 points that will expire in a year anyway.

The 2 points will come off her license in a year IF she doesn't receive any other points.

If it's anything like when I received points 10+ years ago, her insurance company will likely increase her rate for 3 years.

 

[yesrutgers01]

In my experience points typically have no standing with an insurance company. If the event stays on your record it will be rated on and impact your policy once the current policy term ends.

Correct...not always but they will use this tactic

 

[OTBOTOR]

In my case I found it best to pay the extra $200 for the no-points "improper driving" offense than an increased insurance premium for a couple or few years. Keep in mind, you can only exercise this option twice in five years (I think it's five anyway).

 

[FanuSanu52]

Unfortunately the reduced plea is all part of a fund raising scheme that apparently was initiated by the McGreavey administration. In effect you pay a higher fine for a downgraded guilty plea that carries no or less points. Anyone who has gone thru this process or have seen it operate in court knows what I mean. Only in NJ! And of course there have been complaints regarding baited police setups to trap crosswalk violators. And yes there are legitimate violations as well as people who pay no attention when they are crossing the street in which case perhaps they should also be cited and fined.

Except that was standard before the McGreevy admin, I assume for years.

OP, like I mentioned to you in that other thread, I drive fast, so I might have some experience here :D Another thing that can help if you don't have/want an attorney is bringing a police officer friend, doesn't have to be from the town, either. He can talk to the prosecutor - professional courtesy kind of thing. From what I remember, you always get the chance to talk to the prosecutor and make any deals, so you don't need to do anything special.

Honestly, for a first offense, taking an attorney or police officer is probably overkill - they want to take your extra money and save time so they should give you the point drop pretty easily. For subsequent offenses or big issues, it can be a help. I got nailed for 50 where Easton Ave turns into a 25 mph zone in South Bound Brook. Had a police officer friend come with me to plead down, and I distinctly remember the judge telling me I was lucky because he would have taken my license for doubling the speed limit. I might have been able to plead it down myself, but it was definitely worth having backup with those stakes.

This is 10 years+ ago, but I remember you used to be able to lose points (two, I think) by taking a defensive driving course. If your daughter hasn't already taken the course (one time deal), and doesn't want to get extorted on a plea, she could look into that.

 

[RUsojo]

In my case I found it best to pay the extra $200 for the no-points "improper driving" offense than an increased insurance premium for a couple or few years. Keep in mind, you can only exercise this option twice in five years (I think it's five anyway).

Your insurance will still increase with most companies unless the event is completely removed from your record.

 

[FanuSanu52]

she worked at the restuarant in town for 2 years. right near the site of the "crime" lol. going to use that fact too. not just some kid speeding by..but well aware of the location and crosswalk.

How does that help her case? It tells the prosecutor she knew the crosswalk was there and rolled through it anyway. I'd leave that idea right here; prosecutors can be d*cks about details like that.

When I tried to appeal to the NB prosecutor's everyday good nature and common sense, explaining I only parked blocking the sidewalk for two minutes to run in and ask my roommate to move his car up, his response was essentially, "so you admit to breaking the ordinance, then." He was right. He was also a douche.

 

[RU4Real]

Pleading out moving violations is a pretty casual thing, these days. The towns are looking to A) minimize court time, B) maximize revenue and C) not excessively hassle generally law-abiding citizens.

The prosecutor will make himself available prior to court for those people who wish to enter an alternative plea. In some towns (Manalapan is one) the prosecutor will actually address the courtroom, explain the plea options and then invite everyone who meets the plea conditions to form an orderly line and conduct the necessary paperwork.

Generally speaking, if you have a clean driving record, a 4 point speeding violation will be dropped to a 2 point violation in exchange for a guilty plea. 2 point violations can be pled for "Unsafe operation of a motor vehicle" if you have not exercised that plea option in the last five (I think) years. The fine for Unsafe Operation is about $450, but there are no points.

Generally speaking, if you have 2 or less points on your license, the best thing to do is just plead to a 2 point offense (or just plead guilty if your offense is 2 points) pay the fine and then wait until the points hit your abstract. At that time, spend the 30 bucks to take the online Defensive Driving course, which will subtract 3 points from your record upon completion.

 

[DHajekRC84]

How does that help her case? It tells the prosecutor she knew the crosswalk was there and rolled through it anyway. I'd leave that idea right here; prosecutors can be d*cks about details like that.

When I tried to appeal to the NB prosecutor's everyday good nature and common sense, explaining I only parked blocking the sidewalk for two minutes to run in and ask my roommate to move his car up, his response was essentially, "so you admit to breaking the ordinance, then." He was right. He was also a douche.

The point being that she knew the crosswalk was there as she past it multiple times per week and there fore DIDN'T just blow thru it. (I'm the impatient one don't you know that by now[laughing])

Perhaps she served him a nice :burger:and :beer:one day. LOL.

Anyway I think this is all a moot point. My guess is we are just paying the fine and 2 points and pleading guilty. No reason to spend another $220 up from per RU4Real's .

 

[HeyHuey]

You didn't mention what town...and that is the correct thing to do. Good luck there where ever it is. I know that the rates go up but in the long view having 2 points hanging over her head isn't the worst thing that could happen. I stopped getting points when I stopped being carded at bars. But when I had them I was a more careful driver.

 

[RutgersRaRa]

The latest governmental policy of revenue generation is to treat points as currency--they know people will pay more to eliminate points and are happy to do so. Municipalities would much rather have more money than to assign points, for which insurance companies are the primary beneficiaries by raising rates.

Net-net: Tell the prosecutor and he'll be happy to remove the points for some extra coin.

 

[FanuSanu52]

A tangent if you were pleading innocent, a completely unnecessary, unhelpful point when pleading down. "Well, I'll plead guilty ... but I just want you to know that I'm not really guilty, so here's an unrelated fact that really doesn't prove anything at all." Better to just keep it simple and let him do the job he's doing anyway. If you don't get the plea and want to fight the ticket, you can bring that up ... though it still doesn't prove anything.

Not saying that to be argumentative, saying that because I really hope you don't go in there, bring that up and get that really d*ckish prosecutor that changes his demeanor because of it.

 

[Tango Two]

She's probably fortunate she didn't mow down the pedestrians in the crosswalk, and the pedestrians fortunate they were not mowed down by a motorist that failed to yield to them.

 

[Goo]

Always pay up and take the no point option. The first question the prosecutor is going to ask is if you have a clean driving record and you always want the answer to the question to be YES. Good luck, in Long Island it's a 4 hour ordeal at the court house. Hopefully, they're more efficient in NJ.

 

[czxqa]

So how did it go?

 

[RU Husky]

Back in the Stone Age when I lived in NJ I was a municipal prosecutor in one of the largest municipalities in the state long before McGreavy was gov. Not sure why RU 62 felt compelled to throw him into the fray. We had such a busy calendar that I was happy to engage citizen defendants and/or their counsel in plea arrangements. Some were chastened by the experience, many were not and made fools of themselves in open court. The ticketing officer often writes notes on the back of the ticket if there were any special circumstances or if the conduct of the defendant was particularly offensive or abusive. We rarely cut those folks a break. I knew when the cops were being particularly aggressive or overcharging defendants or worse yet, when they were sticking it to someone. In those cases it was my responsibility to see that the cops were properly admonished and would dismiss many unwarranted charges.In the long run that benefited my relationship with the local cops. The state troopers were a different breed but I can only remember 1 or 2 instances in my 2 year stint, when a trooper stepped over the line. They too were amenable to plea deals if it got them out of the court house quicker.

 

[yesrutgers01]

Soooo- here is a question- at what point does a pedestrian officially start crossing a street. There have been so many times that I have had a casual Walker give no indication they planned to cross the street only to make a quick turn into the crosswalk and curse out the poor guy who's car was only 10 ft away when they jumped in front of him.

 

[DJ Spanky]

Soooo- here is a question- at what point does a pedestrian officially start crossing a street. There have been so many times that I have had a casual Walker give no indication they planned to cross the street only to make a quick turn into the crosswalk and curse out the poor guy who's car was only 10 ft away when they jumped in front of him.

A while back someone had a thread on this very situation, which arose from a trap set up by a local police department. The law is that the moment someone steps into a crosswalk you have to stop. And this particular setup had a plain clothes officer standing by the crosswalk who would step into as your car came. Down the road was a parked police car who would pull you over if you didn't stop.

 

[PhilaPhans]

How does one tell how many points are on their driving record? I got a "following too closely" ticket in PA (I'm a NJ driver) and I assume most any traffic offense out of state is 2 points, based on what I was reading. I haven't taken a defensive driving course in a while (I think it's one every 3-5 years you can take). But how do I know how many points are on my license or when that accident gets put on?