OT: Should cursive still be taught in schools

[Upstream]

Yawn. Only 30% have passports. 60% of Canadians do. So again, unless Canadians are richer, (their middle class is but not overall), that is bs. But here you go: 80% in the UK- when they need only an ID card to go to Europe, so there goes the whole "Europe is so small" whine.

You really are an idiot.

90% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of yhe US border. So Canadians are fairly likely to travel to the US. And while US and Canadian citizens don't need a passport to travel between the countries, having a passport makes crossing the border easier and faster.

Same thing in the UK. UK citizens don't need a passport to travel to other EU/EEA countries, having a passport makes it much easier. Even within the Schengen Area, where there are no border checks, the EU "highly recommends" that all travelers carry a passport with them at all times, so they can prove identity and nationality if needed. Additionally, some Schengen Area countries have reintroduced border controls as "temporary" security controls in the wake of terrorist attacks. All of this combines to effectively make passports required in Europe.

 

[retired711]

Yet, we had, maybe still have, a really bad shortage of Arabic translators. And I don't think it was because they didn't teach it right. Let's say it was added to the curriculum in a high school and taught in the format you suggest. There would be a ton of backlash. Right now Mandarin might get funny looks. Russian maybe.

We cannot even get to the point of best way to teach things (and in terms of languages, there are lots of good arguments) because there is an overrarching sense of perceived danger or foreignness or ill will. Yeah, at RU I took Arabic, but not everywhere is RU, and by the time you're college age most studies will show your best language learning years have passed. We can't even get people learning Spanish which is way easier and more accessible.

There has been an increasing trend toward offering Mandarin in schools, and, at least in the NYC public school system, Russian was available in high schools even at the height of the cold war.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Why would there be backlash? Unless you are making it mandatory.

Yes, a child's ability to learn language is inherently easier. Ok. What's your point?

My point is simple. If techniques are altered, the inherent "difficulty" people see in adult language learning is easily overcome. People of all educational backgrounds prove it everyday.

The shortage of Arabic translators had nothing to do with teaching methods. It had to do with finding people willing to spend 14 months learning Arabic. You don't just send someone to a year plus school in the military if they don't want to be there.

How does that get modified to a college or HS curriculum. That's the issue.

Then there are problems like this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...arabic-sparks-controversy-at-new-york-school/

I agree in a NYC pre-school where people pay thousands a year, or in pretty mixed areas (my HS offered Russian) you are not going to get a ton of pushback. But overall unfortunately I think there may be some (not that it shoudln't just be brushed aside).

 

[NotInRHouse]

You really are an idiot.

90% of Canada's population lives within 100 miles of yhe US border. So Canadians are fairly likely to travel to the US. And while US and Canadian citizens don't need a passport to travel between the countries, having a passport makes crossing the border easier and faster.

Same thing in the UK. UK citizens don't need a passport to travel to other EU/EEA countries, having a passport makes it much easier. Even within the Schengen Area, where there are no border checks, the EU "highly recommends" that all travelers carry a passport with them at all times, so they can prove identity and nationality if needed. Additionally, some Schengen Area countries have reintroduced border controls as "temporary" security controls in the wake of terrorist attacks. All of this combines to effectively make passports required in Europe.

There has been literally one instance in traveling on four continents where an authority outside of an airport or border crossing requested my passport. Of course, people in the UK don't have passports out of fear out of being asked to present one in the EU, it's very unlikely that would ever happen. They have it to travel the world. And they still have a universally accepted ID within the EU, even at spontaneous border checks. On the bus between Amsterdam and Brussels, it didn't even stop.

And of course, I'm sure you know more than the experts who specifically deem ignorance as a reason not to travel.

 

[NotInRHouse]

If I were eviscerated as badly as you were in this thread, I'd hang my head and walk away. Actually, I'd probably let my feet move so quickly, I wouldn't have time to think about hanging my head.

Start moving your feet and head. And crack a book or several, and quick. Perhaps then travel experts would be less concerned with American ignorance.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Lulz.

Hope you got some international travel in fairly recently because you are so destroyed, I reckon you'll be laid up and off planes for quite a while.

 

[Upstream]

There has been literally one instance in traveling on four continents where an authority outside of an airport or border crossing requested my passport. Of course, people in the UK don't have passports out of fear out of being asked to present one in the EU, it's very unlikely that would ever happen. They have it to travel the world. And they still have a universally accepted ID within the EU, even at spontaneous border checks. On the bus between Amsterdam and Brussels, it didn't even stop.

And of course, I'm sure you know more than the experts who specifically deem ignorance as a reason not to travel.

Which "experts"? Are you talking about Nomadic Matt from that CNN article you linked earlier? The opinion of a guy who writes a internet blog chronicling his travels and observations is hardly expert testimony.

As far as UK travelers, as I already explained, having a passport makes it much easier for them to travel outside the UK. This is the same reason that the US saw a bump in passports issued when the WHTI requirements were put in place. WHTI doesn't require a passport, but having a passport makes it much easier to travel between the US and Canada. And having a passport makes it much easier for a UK citizen to travel between the UK and the rest of the EU.

I'm also surprised that you've never been asked to present a passport upon checking into a hotel in Europe.

 

[MoobyCow]

Traditional methods of teaching language skills are antiquated.

Take military language schools, as an example. We can take just about any soldier and send them to the Defense Language Institute, and have them conversationally fluent in 24 weeks--including Arabic, Mandarin and Russian. You can have them fully fluent, to the point of translator status, in 62 weeks.

They focus less on structure in that environment. It exactly the opposite of the way foreign languages are taught in our schools, including at the university level.

Isn't it also basically all day immersion? I know the structured, ridged approach is not very effective, but full on immersion isn't exactly something most people can do.

 

[FanuSanu52]

Which "experts"? Are you talking about Nomadic Matt from that CNN article you linked earlier? The opinion of a guy who writes a internet blog chronicling his travels and observations is hardly expert testimony.

As far as UK travelers, as I already explained, having a passport makes it much easier for them to travel outside the UK. This is the same reason that the US saw a bump in passports issued when the WHTI requirements were put in place. WHTI doesn't require a passport, but having a passport makes it much easier to travel between the US and Canada. And having a passport makes it much easier for a UK citizen to travel between the UK and the rest of the EU.

I'm also surprised that you've never been asked to present a passport upon checking into a hotel in Europe.

"Oh, f#$%, you meant that, too?!"

 

[ruhudsonfan]

Isn't it also basically all day immersion? I know the structured, ridged approach is not very effective, but full on immersion isn't exactly something most people can do.

yeah it's definitely their job for that time. But the point is, traditional American language instruction will have kids sit in Spanish or French class, 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week, for at least 2 years and they can't ask for the restroom when they leave HS. The reason for that is we focus on grammar and sentence structure, rather then on phrases and the most used combinations of words.

So, our kids can conjugate verbs in French, but can't actually have a conversation with a 3rd grader in Paris.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Which "experts"? Are you talking about Nomadic Matt from that CNN article you linked earlier? The opinion of a guy who writes a internet blog chronicling his travels and observations is hardly expert testimony.

As far as UK travelers, as I already explained, having a passport makes it much easier for them to travel outside the UK. This is the same reason that the US saw a bump in passports issued when the WHTI requirements were put in place. WHTI doesn't require a passport, but having a passport makes it much easier to travel between the US and Canada. And having a passport makes it much easier for a UK citizen to travel between the UK and the rest of the EU.

I'm also surprised that you've never been asked to present a passport upon checking into a hotel in Europe.

Read the CNN article. I bolded it in my post.

There are a few countries (mostly in Latin America) that seem to be really interested in you having a passport on your person. I have never had an issue in Europe. Not at hotels or crossing borders. In fact on a flight from Germany to Spain I distinctly remember attempting to show it and the attendant pushing back. And even still, that one time I was asked for it on the street in Latin America, I gave my NJ driver's license, discussed NJ for a few minutes, and went on my way.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Lulz.

Hope you got some international travel in fairly recently because you are so destroyed, I reckon you'll be laid up and off planes for quite a while.

Maybe I'll even come back with a new name after being banned like some people. Focus, am I right?

 

[FanuSanu52]

Palpable desperation. Both posts.

 

[bac2therac]

yeah it's definitely their job for that time. But the point is, traditional American language instruction will have kids sit in Spanish or French class, 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week, for at least 2 years and they can't ask for the restroom when they leave HS. The reason for that is we focus on grammar and sentence structure, rather then on phrases and the most used combinations of words.

So, our kids can conjugate verbs in French, but can't actually have a conversation with a 3rd grader in Paris.

I always remember and inordinate time spent on tenses and whether or not the word was masculine or feminine

 

[Upstream]

Read the CNN article. I bolded it in my post.

There are a few countries (mostly in Latin America) that seem to be really interested in you having a passport on your person. I have never had an issue in Europe. Not at hotels or crossing borders. In fact on a flight from Germany to Spain I distinctly remember attempting to show it and the attendant pushing back. And even still, that one time I was asked for it on the street in Latin America, I gave my NJ driver's license, discussed NJ for a few minutes, and went on my way.

1) Thank you for confirming that the "expert" is Nomadic Matt, the internet blogger quoted in the CNN article. So we are now at zero reputable experts supporting your thesis, and one internet blogger who writes about his personal observations.

2) Since it is a legal requirement for hotels in most EU countries to request passports from adult foreigners, I am going to assume that if that if you have not encountered this, you either don't travel to the EU, or your travels have been as a minor when accompanied by your parents, or you are staying in flophouses.

 

[T2Kplus10]

yeah it's definitely their job for that time. But the point is, traditional American language instruction will have kids sit in Spanish or French class, 50 minutes a day, 5 days a week, for at least 2 years and they can't ask for the restroom when they leave HS. The reason for that is we focus on grammar and sentence structure, rather then on phrases and the most used combinations of words.

So, our kids can conjugate verbs in French, but can't actually have a conversation with a 3rd grader in Paris.

These are all very good points and hits the nail on the head. You need to be able to use the new language outside of class, since none of us are able to recreate the military dynamic. When my daughter learns a new language (Mandarin), we will all learn it together and designate time during the week when we only speak it. We have been told by countless people that this is the best way to "learn" it.

My own experience, I took 4 or 5 years of French and got straight A's, never knew more than a few basic phrases outside the classroom and never could speak French to anyone. Looking back, it was a complete waste of time.

 

[Upstream]

These are all very good points and hits the nail on the head. You need to be able to use the new language outside of class, since none of us are able to recreate the military dynamic. When my daughter learns a new language (Mandarin), we will all learn it together and designate time during the week when we only speak it. We have been told by countless people that this is the best way to "learn" it.

My own experience, I took 4 or 5 years of French and got straight A's, never knew more than a few basic phrases outside the classroom and never could speak French to anyone. Looking back, it was a complete waste of time.

I don't think the purpose of teaching foreign languages in US schools is so students will become fluent. As noted in this thread, without immersion (impractical for school students) and significant opportunity to speak the language (unlikely in the US), most students won't approach anything close to fluency.

I think the purpose is to expose the kids to global differences (as CLP noted), and because learning foreign grammar helps in understanding English grammar.

 

[iReC89]

I realize this thread has jumped the shark but I was watching my kid text with one thumb yesturday. I don't think I can write or type as fast as many of these kids can text. My typing speed in college was horrible. Between cameras, recording apps and keyboarding skills I think they've got this covered.

 

[NotInRHouse]

1) Thank you for confirming that the "expert" is Nomadic Matt, the internet blogger quoted in the CNN article. So we are now at zero reputable experts supporting your thesis, and one internet blogger who writes about his personal observations.

2) Since it is a legal requirement for hotels in most EU countries to request passports from adult foreigners, I am going to assume that if that if you have not encountered this, you either don't travel to the EU, or your travels have been as a minor when accompanied by your parents, or you are staying in flophouses.

Reading is fundamental.

Tourism experts and avid travelers attribute Americans' lack of interest in international travel to a few key factors, including: the United States' own rich cultural and geographic diversity, an American skepticism and/or ignorance about international destinations, a work culture that prevents Americans from taking long vacations abroad and the prohibitive cost and logistics of going overseas.

He is one person quoted in that article. Also quoted:

- Bruce Bommarito, executive vice president and chief operating officer for the U.S. Travel Association.
- author Gary Arndt
- Joe Byrne, executive vice president for Tourism Ireland

Where is he quoted as the one person making that observation?

And Italy and France are the only countries I can find that required the passport recently, I have never been to France but if you travel today you often include an ID number of some kind when you book online which Europeans all have anyway. Which is why they don't need a passport. Even the EU itself says it's not required.

Must I carry my passport or national ID card with me at all times during my trip to another EU country?

It would be advisable to do so as you should be always able to demonstrate that you have a right of residence as an EU citizen.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/docs/faq_en.pdf

No hotel mention, and ID card OK.

And even still the Italian law itself requires only a photo ID based on this explanation:

By Italian Law in accordance with the Legislative Decree of 23/05/2011, n° 79, and the Ministry of the Interior newsletter n° 400/A/2012/23.1.3 of 05/03/2012, every person, including minors, is required to show an identity document with a photo (ID card or Passport) in order to be registered in Hotel.

http://www.unahotels.co.uk/en/hotel-check-in-id/

 

[Caliknight]

These are all very good points and hits the nail on the head. You need to be able to use the new language outside of class, since none of us are able to recreate the military dynamic. When my daughter learns a new language (Mandarin), we will all learn it together and designate time during the week when we only speak it. We have been told by countless people that this is the best way to "learn" it.

My own experience, I took 4 or 5 years of French and got straight A's, never knew more than a few basic phrases outside the classroom and never could speak French to anyone. Looking back, it was a complete waste of time.

Definitely hits the nail on the head. I took 4 years of Spanish in high school and learned far more hanging around my buddies house who was from Uruguay than I ever did in a clasroom.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

I don't think the purpose of teaching foreign languages in US schools is so students will become fluent. As noted in this thread, without immersion (impractical for school students) and significant opportunity to speak the language (unlikely in the US), most students won't approach anything close to fluency.

I think the purpose is to expose the kids to global differences (as CLP noted), and because learning foreign grammar helps in understanding English grammar.

yeah, not so much, outside of Romance languages re: English grammar.

And that IS the point. The focus should shift. Teach kids English grammar in English class.

Teach kids awareness of foreign culture (and to be minimally conversational) in their foreign language class.

 

[RUScrew85]

Was reading an editorial in the Courier News the other day where the op ed board said that the NJ legislators introducing a bill to make sure cursive writing is still taught is unnecessary as cursive wrting skills are no longer needed and schools should be spending their time teaching other things. I was actually taken aback that kids are not taught cursive in over half the schools in NJ anymore. I dont have kids and have been oblivious to any changes. Yes I realize now more is done on computers and less cursive is necessary but gee what happens if a kid sees a letter from his grandmother or sees a document from the past and they have no clue how to read it.

I say keep cursive writing in our schools

That's what we need, MORE government in schools. Maybe we should focus on school kids actually graduating with the ability to speak English correctly and do HS math.

How about we make Cursive writing an elective and give folks a CHOICE?

 

[RUScrew85]

The argument that "my kids will be learning math and become the next Einstein" is about as ridiculous as it gets.

My son is learning it in 3rd grade, though it isn't a priority. They also learned Roman numerals. For a modest investment of 20-30 hours, they can learn something that they'll have for a lifetime and which requires zero additional investment of time or effort.

As someone who employs recent college graduates in technical areas of finance, economics, statistics and coding, I would caution all you STEM or bust guys as it relates to emphasizing STEM to the detriment of soft communicating skills or liberal arts. As we've overcompensated to hard skills, these kids simply cannot communicate at levels that are acceptable. They lack culture or any ability to make "small talk"--which will really put a damper on their ability to transition into leadership roles in our world of consulting. The last thing we should want to emulate are the systems of Asia which produce socially inept robots--regardless of their STEM genius.

I would only add ..."regardless of their overrated STEM genius"

 

[CERU00]

I don't think the purpose of teaching foreign languages in US schools is so students will become fluent. As noted in this thread, without immersion (impractical for school students) and significant opportunity to speak the language (unlikely in the US), most students won't approach anything close to fluency.

I think the purpose is to expose the kids to global differences (as CLP noted), and because learning foreign grammar helps in understanding English grammar.

Three years of learning Spanish verb conjugations and the multitude of irregular conjugations taught me nothing that would help my English. I think the focus has been getting students compotent in very basic conversation. Even that is extremely difficult with current classroom time.

 

[NotInRHouse]

They need to learn the basic grammar in addition to having immersion- TV, music, actual in person discussions, etc. You need to combine the two. You don't want to sound like a moron. Even when fluent, you will be judged. Travel in Spain and learn Latin American Spanish in the US, they will ask why you don't have a Spain-Spanish accent. Seems self evident to us, but you don't want to have that on top of not being able to handle basic verb conjugations that any speaker can handle.

I became fluent in Spanish in significant part due to volunteering to teach English to Spanish speakers and by watching a lot of Univision and listening Spanish music, before I could afford to travel. If you listen to enough "Sabado Gigante" (I know now off the air) your mind becomes trained to think in Spanish, instead of fumbling over things like the subjunctive that mostly don't exist in English. And through these things, you start to gain cultural literacy.

Hell, I took one semester of German at RU, and can still remember some basics after filling in some lyrics to German rap songs in class. Once the professor did that, people started bringing in more German music to class to work on. It's a real way to engage students.

Remember that in other countries, English is in their face whether they want it there or not due to popular media. A teacher or a professor in the US can go on YouTube and have foreign music and TV in their class in seconds (say not Spanish where it's so easy to get in the US). Are they doing that? I don't think they are, we didn't do that until honors level junior year of high school.

 

[retired711]

Reading is fundamental.

Tourism experts and avid travelers attribute Americans' lack of interest in international travel to a few key factors, including: the United States' own rich cultural and geographic diversity, an American skepticism and/or ignorance about international destinations, a work culture that prevents Americans from taking long vacations abroad and the prohibitive cost and logistics of going overseas.

He is one person quoted in that article. Also quoted:

- Bruce Bommarito, executive vice president and chief operating officer for the U.S. Travel Association.
- author Gary Arndt
- Joe Byrne, executive vice president for Tourism Ireland

Where is he quoted as the one person making that observation?

And Italy and France are the only countries I can find that required the passport recently, I have never been to France but if you travel today you often include an ID number of some kind when you book online which Europeans all have anyway. Which is why they don't need a passport. Even the EU itself says it's not required.

Must I carry my passport or national ID card with me at all times during my trip to another EU country?

It would be advisable to do so as you should be always able to demonstrate that you have a right of residence as an EU citizen.

http://europa.eu/youreurope/advice/docs/faq_en.pdf

No hotel mention, and ID card OK.

And even still the Italian law itself requires only a photo ID based on this explanation:

By Italian Law in accordance with the Legislative Decree of 23/05/2011, n° 79, and the Ministry of the Interior newsletter n° 400/A/2012/23.1.3 of 05/03/2012, every person, including minors, is required to show an identity document with a photo (ID card or Passport) in order to be registered in Hotel.

http://www.unahotels.co.uk/en/hotel-check-in-id/

NIRH, have you noticed that these travel experts actually refute your basic point? You attribute the failure of Americans to travel to ignorance or from being ethnocentric, but these experts find other reasons as well -- include one I cited earlier, the many travel destinations within the United States itself.

NIRH, please stop posting about travel in this thread. You're taking a terrible beating and it's no fun to watch for someone who often sees a lot of merit in your posts.

 

[Upstream]

NIRH, please stop posting about travel in this thread. You're taking a terrible beating and it's no fun to watch for someone who often sees a lot of merit in your posts.

You often see a lot of merit in his posts?

NIRH is obviously a well-educated guy. But he often confuses opinion and fact, and he repeatedly posts what he wants to believe without any basis in fact. And then when called on it, he typically presents data that refutes his argument, rather than supports it (as has happened in this thread), and then he fails to see that he is refuting his own argument.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

It is past time to cut to the chase here...

Would America be any better.. would life here be any better if EVERYONE visited Europe and Africa and Asia and South America and Australia and spoke 5 languages?

Answer: Indeterminate.

So why are people pressing this issue as if simply being an American, speaking and reading American English isn't good enough?

This effort by NIRH and his ilk is simply an attack on American culture and values because they want some kind of change and they think insulting Americans and telling them they are too stupid or lazy to want things to be the way they want them to be... they think this is a good idea.

Morons... no matter how many countries they ave visited or how many languages they claim they speak.

Euros don't speak several languages because they are more enlightened or less lazy. They do so because they live on top of eachother and it is in their best interests to learn those languages. It will affect their daily lives. You take those same people and plunk them down in Iowa and they might never learn another language. It is about "need", not so much laziness. Americans address their needs and desires as do Euros and everyone else.

These cultural warriors should just drop the nonsense already. We all know what they are doing. Just stop it. They are all embarrassing themselves... in several languages no doubt.

 

[retired711]

You often see a lot of merit in his posts?

Upstream, we lawyers have to stick together!

 

[NotInRHouse]

It is past time to cut to the chase here...

Would America be any better.. would life here be any better if EVERYONE visited Europe and Africa and Asia and South America and Australia and spoke 5 languages?

Answer: Indeterminate.

So why are people pressing this issue as if simply being an American, speaking and reading American English isn't good enough?

This effort by NIRH and his ilk is simply an attack on American culture and values because they want some kind of change and they think insulting Americans and telling them they are too stupid or lazy to want things to be the way they want them to be... they think this is a good idea.

Morons... no matter how many countries they ave visited or how many languages they claim they speak.

Euros don't speak several languages because they are more enlightened or less lazy. They do so because they live on top of eachother and it is in their best interests to learn those languages. It will affect their daily lives. You take those same people and plunk them down in Iowa and they might never learn another language. It is about "need", not so much laziness. Americans address their needs and desires as do Euros and everyone else.

These cultural warriors should just drop the nonsense already. We all know what they are doing. Just stop it. They are all embarrassing themselves... in several languages no doubt.

Yes, they definitely would be better off. Your argument is ridiculous.

In Iceland, Danish and German are required despite those countries being far away. In the Middle East English is mostly required despite basically every country having Arabic as an official language. No daily effect. Even people in Saudi Arabia are curious about the rest of the world.

You mention Iowa, you know how badly Iowan farmers want more access to sell and what a big deal ethanol is?

The only "some kind of change" I want is to have, say a VP candidate that doesn't think Africa is a country or can identify the cause of the Korean War.

I guess Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, and Ted Cruz are "cultural warriors" for speaking Spanish in political appearances...hell Jeb Bush lived in Venezuela and cites that as experience!! What a snob! And I am not one to give the Bush family credit but he speaks fantastic, native level Spanish, way better than Ted Cruz.

 

[NotInRHouse]

NIRH, have you noticed that these travel experts actually refute your basic point? You attribute the failure of Americans to travel to ignorance or from being ethnocentric, but these experts find other reasons as well -- include one I cited earlier, the many travel destinations within the United States itself.

NIRH, please stop posting about travel in this thread. You're taking a terrible beating and it's no fun to watch for someone who often sees a lot of merit in your posts.

I did say earlier there are other causes, but certainly that is one. If you look in this thread (or the soccer thread, oddly) there is very unfortunate evidence. But I do appreciate the compliment! :sunglasses:

 

[ruhudsonfan]

It is past time to cut to the chase here...

Would America be any better.. would life here be any better if EVERYONE visited Europe and Africa and Asia and South America and Australia and spoke 5 languages?

Answer: Indeterminate.

So why are people pressing this issue as if simply being an American, speaking and reading American English isn't good enough?

This effort by NIRH and his ilk is simply an attack on American culture and values because they want some kind of change and they think insulting Americans and telling them they are too stupid or lazy to want things to be the way they want them to be... they think this is a good idea.

Morons... no matter how many countries they ave visited or how many languages they claim they speak.

Euros don't speak several languages because they are more enlightened or less lazy. They do so because they live on top of eachother and it is in their best interests to learn those languages. It will affect their daily lives. You take those same people and plunk them down in Iowa and they might never learn another language. It is about "need", not so much laziness. Americans address their needs and desires as do Euros and everyone else.

These cultural warriors should just drop the nonsense already. We all know what they are doing. Just stop it. They are all embarrassing themselves... in several languages no doubt.

I generally like your work, but this is one of the most ignorant things every posted on this site. And that's a tough list to crack, my friend.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

I generally like your work, but this is one of the most ignorant things every posted on this site. And that's a tough list to crack, my friend.

Please explain how the USA will be better off if everyone was more "culturally curious" and better educated regarding language skills. Perhaps I did not identify my point properly, but I don't see what would change here should everyone be more worldly.

While it is easy to say that becoming better educated yields positive results on a personal level, I don't see how that changes things here. Would we immediately implement real national health care or start giving people 6 weeks vacation? Would we abolish the death penalty? What would change.. for the better?

Look at NIRH's ridiculous argument about Iowa farmers and ethanol. If everyone in Iowa spoke 5 languages, would they sell more ethanol?

Great pains have been taken by NIRH and others to show us how many people around the world have learned to speak English. Doesn't that make it easier for those who only know English to do business with them just as it makes it easier for them to do business with us?

 

[FanuSanu52]

Please explain how the USA will be better off if everyone was more "culturally curious" and better educated regarding language skills. Perhaps I did not identify my point properly, but I don't see what would change here should everyone be more worldly.

While it is easy to say that becoming better educated yields positive results on a personal level, I don't see how that changes things here. Would we immediately implement real national health care or start giving people 6 weeks vacation? Would we abolish the death penalty? What would change.. for the better?

Look at NIRH's ridiculous argument about Iowa farmers and ethanol. If everyone in Iowa spoke 5 languages, would they sell more ethanol?

Great pains have been taken by NIRH and others to show us how many people around the world have learned to speak English. Doesn't that make it easier for those who only know English to do business with them just as it makes it easier for them to do business with us?

Yes, no business advantages at all in learning to speak another language. Everyone can just speak American and bring the business to me!

You and NIRH deserve each other.

 

[GoodOl'Rutgers]

Yes, no business advantages at all in learning to speak another language. Everyone can just speak American and bring the business to me!

You and NIRH deserve each other.

You also miss the point. This is not about whether individuals are better off learning geography and languages and experiencing the world.. they are. But the attacks by NIRH are against the whole system... the American culture of being more insular.

What I am saying is that in the meta view, it doesn't matter that 75% of Americans don't travel outside the USA or speak multiple languages. The 25% that do do so because it is to their advantage to do so and they choose this option. Languages are widely available in schools if students opt in. If the student is motivated enough by the benefits of learning languages they will take languages. Yo want to own a landscaping company and hire illegals.. learn spanish.

The "teach cursive" or "teach languages" thing is a false choice presented by someone who wants to tear down American culture and history everywhere he can. This NIRH is a guy who claims AMERICA is behind 9-11. He is attacking the idea of teaching writing and reading cursive ENGLISH as outdated and the people that think it should be taught are just displaying the negative attributes of typical Americans. It is a bullspit argument. One thing has nothing to do with the other and this utopia that NIRH envisions where every American speaks multiple languages and nobody knows cursive will not be materially better than this version of America.

 

[ruhudsonfan]

You also miss the point. This is not about whether individuals are better off learning geography and languages and experiencing the world.. they are. But the attacks by NIRH are against the whole system... the American culture of being more insular.

What I am saying is that in the meta view, it doesn't matter that 75% of Americans don't travel outside the USA or speak multiple languages. The 25% that do do so because it is to their advantage to do so and they choose this option. Languages are widely available in schools if students opt in. If the student is motivated enough by the benefits of learning languages they will take languages. Yo want to own a landscaping company and hire illegals.. learn spanish.

The "teach cursive" or "teach languages" thing is a false choice presented by someone who wants to tear down American culture and history everywhere he can. This NIRH is a guy who claims AMERICA is behind 9-11. He is attacking the idea of teaching writing and reading cursive ENGLISH as outdated and the people that think it should be taught are just displaying the negative attributes of typical Americans. It is a bullspit argument. One thing has nothing to do with the other and this utopia that NIRH envisions where every American speaks multiple languages and nobody knows cursive will not be materially better than this version of America.

Me, of all people, is not interested in "tearing American culture down." I spent more than half my adult life willing to die for "American Culture."

Broad cultural awareness actually allows you to manipulate the world in a way to advance American interests and influence.

As one very powerful example, I'll suggest that we are not bogged down in a decade plus boondoogle in Iraq because we don't have enough American culture, values, guns or bullets. We're running in place precisely because we do not understand the nature of the people we are trying to defeat--or help--depending on your perspective.

Broadening your perspective doesn't ever mean you surrender your core values. That is the false equivalency more than anything ever posted here--well, maybe other than those who thought Flood should be given the head coaching job to save a recruiting class.

We flounder in the Middle East precisely because we don't have enough ME cultural experts. Which is exactly the opposite of what you would argue.

That is one example...

Examples in business are too numerous to list.

 

[Upstream]

Me, of all people, is not interested in "tearing American culture down." I spent more than half my adult life willing to die for "American Culture."

Broad cultural awareness actually allows you to manipulate the world in a way to advance American interests and influence.

As one very powerful example, I'll suggest that we are not bogged down in a decade plus boondoogle in Iraq because we don't have enough American culture, values, guns or bullets. We're running in place precisely because we do not understand the nature of the people we are trying to defeat--or help--depending on your perspective.

Broadening your perspective doesn't ever mean you surrender your core values. That is the false equivalency more than anything ever posted here--well, maybe other than those who thought Flood should be given the head coaching job to save a recruiting class.

We flounder in the Middle East precisely because we don't have enough ME cultural experts. Which is exactly the opposite of what you would argue.

That is one example...

Examples in business are too numerous to list.

But we don't get more Middle East cultural experts by teaching your average Iowa resident conversational Spanish (or French, or German, or Chinese, etc.)

You make a good argument for diversity and a world view. But that doesn't really address the question about why so few Americans (or Australians, or New Zealanders) speak a language other than English. And the answer to that question is that there is basically not a need for most American to speak a language other than English. This is a contrast to Europe, where there is a need for most Europeans to speak a language other than their native language (and because that second language is almost always English, that further decreases the need for native English speakers to learn a second language).

 

[ruhudsonfan]

But we don't get more Middle East cultural experts by teaching your average Iowa resident conversational Spanish (or French, or German, or Chinese, etc.)

You make a good argument for diversity and a world view. But that doesn't really address the question about why so few Americans (or Australians, or New Zealanders) speak a language other than English. And the answer to that question is that there is basically not a need for most American to speak a language other than English. This is a contrast to Europe, where there is a need for most Europeans to speak a language other than their native language (and because that second language is almost always English, that further decreases the need for native English speakers to learn a second language).

I said "as one example."

Are those participating on this thread having some sort of spring mental shut down?

 

[retired711]

There is a tendency in all cultures (not just ours) to believe that their way of doing things is the only rational way, and therefore anyone who does things differently is irrational or wicked. Exposure to what goes on in other nations helps to curb that tendency. In addition, travel exposes us to seeing the beauties other nations have, and makes us realize that their inhabitants have legitimate pride in their countries too.

I am not saying that travel is the only way to curb the tendency to be insular. But it is one way. Learning a language in school (even if the student doesn't become anything close to fluent) also teaches about other cultures, and gives the traveler some comfort when abroad in a nation that speaks the language that was studied. I know that my four years of high school French and almost one year of college didn't make me a French speaker; but it sure does make me more comfortable when I visit France.

I want to emphasize that I don't think *everyone* has to travel or that the person who doesn't travel is automatically "ethnocentric." But I do think that, as many have said, travel is broadening.

 

[NotInRHouse]

I never said anything about 9/11. At least attempt an honest argument.

This where the far right wing is in America. They literally are in fear of foreign languages. Can we wonder why then their rallying point is a man who calls a judge from Indiana a "Mexican", goes to a Jewish function and "says you people like to make deals", and calls for religious tests for judges and travel?

People who scream and cry about things like cursive or who demand we should only know English and fear foreigners are not "typical Americans" or even close to typical. They just scream the loudest. If you ask any person who graduated from RU in the past 10 years in good health they likely have been to several different countries and don't cry when pressing two for English. They don't blame their live station on minorities.

As I have said many times on this board, there is about a 30% of this country that is flat out willingly moronic, racist, xenophobic, and fearful of education or any contact outside of the bubble in which they live. As is on display, again, unfortunately on this board. What is our job, the real "typical Americans" is to learn about other cultures, travel abroad, and tune these people out, vote to cancel out their votes, condemn their bigotry. They are mostly old and we will soon be without them.