OT: The Gettysburg Address

[Randal7]

For one thing, his orders were frequently confusing -- contrast Grant, who was a master at conveying his wishes. And I think most military analysts would agree that his performance at Gettysburg was subpar. Perhaps more importantly, I think he's unduly hyped.

He gave his commanders a lot of latitude and room for interpretation haha

 

[Randal7]

I am not a huge admirer of Lee. But he was so much better than Bragg, Hood, Beauregard and Joseph Johnston, his equivalents in other theaters. He had to gamble -- he had fewer men than the armies that opposed him. His strategy had to be political -- to demoralize the North -- at least as much as military.

One thing to remember is that the South very nearly won the war. In August, 1964, Lincoln wrote that he anticipated losing the election. What re-elected him was the captures of Atlanta and Mobile and Union success in the Shenandoah Valley. None of those were inevitable.

Another “what if” - Albert Sidney Johnson. Guy takes a bullet in the knee at Shiloh amidst a rout, bleeds out, and everything goes to hell in a handbasket after… it’s perhaps the inflection point of the whole western theatre right there…

 

[RUinPinehurst]

I am not a huge admirer of Lee. But he was so much better than Bragg, Hood, Beauregard and Joseph Johnston, his equivalents in other theaters. He had to gamble -- he had fewer men than the armies that opposed him. His strategy had to be political -- to demoralize the North -- at least as much as military.

One thing to remember is that the South very nearly won the war. In August, 1964, Lincoln wrote that he anticipated losing the election. What re-elected him was the captures of Atlanta and Mobile and Union success in the Shenandoah Valley. None of those were inevitable.

Shelby Foote believed the Union victory was inevitable, that the war to the South was TOTAL, all consuming to the general population and to the industrial complex (as limited as it was);whereas he thought the Union fought the war with one hand, while the other went about life with little to no concern or care about the war. I tend to agree with Foote.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Success in war comes down to three key components:
- Men
- Money
- Material
The Union had all three in abundance. The Confederacy did not.

 

[retired711]

Extended periods of brilliance, yes.

He also had spectacular corp commanders in Longstreet, AP Hill and Stonewall Jackson. Cavalry men too — Forrest and Hampton and Stuart. The south had some really exceptional commanders.

If Jackson lived past Chancellorsville and was given a true fighting force of 35-40k men and did in the north what he did in the Shenandoah valley in 1862 things might have been entirely different.

Heck, even with Jackson gone if Lee gives Jubal Early a chunk of guys and lets him go rebel marauder and gorilla warfare in the north while his main fighting force pressures chambersburg, maybe the entire thing shifts. Maybe the pressure and the fight coming north is too much. Early did it in 1864… he got as far north as Washington. And that was after the whole thing was already pretty much signed and sealed.

One of the great “what ifs”.

Jubal Early's raid was in April; the Union's key victories at Atlanta and Mobile Bay weren't until later in the year.

The South also had some terrible commanders, almost all of them egomaniacs, e.g. Beauregard and Bragg.

 

[retired711]

Success in war comes down to three key components:
- Men
- Money
- Material
The Union had all three in abundance. The Confederacy did not.

There is a fourth M that is at least equally important: morale. The South's hope was that the North would become frustrated and give up. As late as August, 1864, Lincoln thought it was a real possibility.

 

[ashokan]

Shelby Foote believed the Union victory was inevitable, that the war to the South was TOTAL, all consuming to the general population and to the industrial complex (as limited as it was);whereas he thought the Union fought the war with one hand, while the other went about life with little to no concern or care about the war. I tend to agree with Foote.

Sherman was a professor at Louisiana State Seminary (forerunner to modern LSU) before the war. He knew the two sides very well and predicted the Confederates would bite off more than they could chew


Sherman wrote this to another professor in 1860, seeing the inevitability of a Civil War. Sherman had seen combat in the Seminole Wars.

"You people of the South don’t know what you are doing. This country will be drenched in blood, and God only knows how it will end. It is all folly, madness, a crime against civilization! You people speak so lightly of war; you don’t know what you’re talking about. War is a terrible thing! You mistake, too, the people of the North. They are a peaceable people but an earnest people, and they will fight, too. They are not going to let this country be destroyed without a mighty effort to save it … Besides, where are your men and appliances of war to contend against them?

The North can make a steam engine, locomotive, or railway car; hardly a yard of cloth or pair of shoes can you make. You are rushing into war with one of the most powerful, ingeniously mechanical, and determined people on Earth — right at your doors. You are bound to fail. Only in your spirit and determination are you prepared for war. In all else you are totally unprepared, with a bad cause to start with. At first you will make headway, but as your limited resources begin to fail, shut out from the markets of Europe as you will be, your cause will begin to wane. If your people will but stop and think, they must see in the end that you will surely fail."

Sherman was sent home early in the Civil War because of his extreme pessimism– he was deemed a bit crazy.

 

[Randal7]

Jubal Early's raid was in April; the Union's key victories at Atlanta and Mobile Bay weren't until later in the year.

The South also had some terrible commanders, almost all of them egomaniacs, e.g. Beauregard and Bragg.

Bragg was horrific, yes. He probably loses chickamauga too if not for Longstreet. Guy just couldn’t do it… but for some reason Jeff Davis liked him?

 

[retired711]

Bragg was horrific, yes. He probably loses chickamauga too if not for Longstreet. Guy just couldn’t do it… but for some reason Jeff Davis liked him?

Bragg was better than Beauregard, whom he succeeded. Davis had admired Bragg since his volunteer regiment fought alongside Bragg's regulars serving with him in the Mexican War. But everyone agrees Bragg was hard to get along with, to say the least. There really wasn't very much to pick from.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Shelby Foote believed the Union victory was inevitable, that the war to the South was TOTAL, all consuming to the general population and to the industrial complex (as limited as it was);whereas he thought the Union fought the war with one hand, while the other went about life with little to no concern or care about the war. I tend to agree with Foote.

Foote is accurate with this assessment. All the Union needs to win was the will to see it through.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Scorched Earth. Yes. Took the fight to the general population in NC, SC, GA to break the will of the people, demonstrating that their Confederate military could not protect them, and that this was the high price to pay for insurrection. Also to some extent as payback for the discovery of Andersonville and Salisbury prison camp atrocities.

Scorched earth to deprive the confederate military of supplies, food, and infrastructure. Yes. But civilians weren't targeted as combatants or collateral damage.

 

[Randal7]

Bragg was better than Beauregard, whom he succeeded. Davis had admired Bragg since his volunteer regiment fought alongside Bragg's regulars serving with him in the Mexican War. But everyone agrees Bragg was hard to get along with, to say the least. There really wasn't very much to pick from.

Patrick Cleburne. Davis should’ve let cleburne build a campaign in the Arkansas and Tennessee hills. Everything cleburne did worked.

 

[Shelby65]

Shelby Foote believed the Union victory was inevitable, that the war to the South was TOTAL, all consuming to the general population and to the industrial complex (as limited as it was);whereas he thought the Union fought the war with one hand, while the other went about life with little to no concern or care about the war. I tend to agree with Foote.

Shelby65 agrees with Shelby Foote. War in the South was all consuming because that’s where almost all the war was fought, including in and around the largest Confederate cities.

Sort of a “chicken is involved but a pig is committed to breakfast” analogy.

 

[retired711]

Patrick Cleburne. Davis should’ve let cleburne build a campaign in the Arkansas and Tennessee hills. Everything cleburne did worked.

East Tennessee, the mountainous part of the state, contained considerable Union sentiment.

 

[T2Kplus20]

Shelby65 agrees with Shelby Foote. War in the South was all consuming because that’s where almost all the war was fought, including in and around the largest Confederate cities.

Sort of a “chicken is involved but a pig is committed to breakfast” analogy.

Related? :)

 

[hoquat63]

Patrick Cleburne. Davis should’ve let cleburne build a campaign in the Arkansas and Tennessee hills. Everything cleburne did worked.

Too bad for the South that Hood got him killed, along with four or so other generals, in his foolish attack at Franklin.
Both sides had their share of bad generals. Banks, Siegel, Pope, et Al for the North

 

[wicker]

Four score and seven years ago Rutgers finished 5-4

 

[retired711]

Too bad for the South that Hood got him killed, along with four or so other generals, in his foolish attack at Franklin.
Both sides had their share of bad generals. Banks, Siegel, Pope, et Al for the North

The difference was that the North had just enough good ones -- and that Lincoln was much more skilled than Jefferson Davis in recognizing who had to be pushed aside and how it needed to be done.

 

[RUinPinehurst]

Four score and seven years ago Rutgers finished 5-4

The 1937 Rutgers Queensmen compiled a 5–6 record, outscoring opponents 128 to 39.