Pa.'s system of public higher education is in trouble

[HeavenUniv.]

I visited UofSC in October and was shocked at how non-urban Columbia was. The town itself was closer in feel to Freehold or Somerville than Trenton or New Brunswick.

I lived for two and a half years about ten minutes from the University if South Carolina campus. It had about a half million people when I was there. There are some trees on campus, but it seemed like an urban school to me and not very scenic. Lots of other schools in the state with nicer campuses. Some parts of Columbia are pretty bad and when I lived there, the city had a big problem with drugs. Public schools are terrible, but that was true for the whole state. Their public schools were ranked dead last in the nation. That being said, it is a beautiful state, housing and taxes are very low, and the pace is slower and the people are very nice. There are tons of things to do in Columbia and there are not miles of suburbs, so you can be hiking in beautiful places easily. There are also lots of rivers and lakes around to take your canoe and kayak.

 

[retired711]

Off-topic, my wife converted and still only eats plain bagels with nothing on them. I said, you’re Jewish now, you’re going to need to add a schmear of something, anything!

I don't eat anything on bagels either; too caloric. And I've been this religion all my life!

 

[RUnTeX]

I visited UofSC in October and was shocked at how non-urban Columbia was. The town itself was closer in feel to Freehold or Somerville than Trenton or New Brunswick.

Columbia had a small city feel to me walking around part of downtown and over by/partially through the USC campus so I guess we left there with different impressions. In any case, I don't think the campus and surrounding area would be a turn off for suburban/exurban NJ kids by thinking it was some kind of small town hickville. It probably still has a relatively deep south culture due to the majority of its student population.

I lived for two and a half years about ten minutes from the University if South Carolina campus. It had about a half million people when I was there. There are some trees on campus, but it seemed like an urban school to me and not very scenic. Lots of other schools in the state with nicer campuses. Some parts of Columbia are pretty bad and when I lived there, the city had a big problem with drugs. Public schools are terrible, but that was true for the whole state. Their public schools were ranked dead last in the nation. That being said, it is a beautiful state, housing and taxes are very low, and the pace is slower and the people are very nice. There are tons of things to do in Columbia and there are not miles of suburbs, so you can be hiking in beautiful places easily. There are also lots of rivers and lakes around to take your canoe and kayak.

The city itself is 100-200K population. Half a million or more in the metro/MSA I suppose, which means there are some suburbs but likely not as much sprawl as folks in larger city metros are used to. Campus was decent but kind of average in the few areas I walked around/through. The Horseshoe quad area was nice but not much above par with Voorhees Mall on CAC.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

Columbia has a ton of things to do and I especially liked being able to see very good college baseball without having to dress like I was participating in the Iditarod. lol Not a bar person, but the two big places are Five Points and Gervais Street. Music is everywhere. Don’t remember those as being unsafe, but some of the neighborhoods are sketchy and crime ridden. Half million includes metro towns like you said-nearby towns are Lexington, Cayce, and West Columbia. Don’t know if it is still there, but there is a very good canoe/kayak store in Cayce or West Columbia. Bought my Acadia there and it is still going strong 20 years later.

 

[RUseaweed]

Their public schools were ranked dead last in the nation.

At the risk of de-railing the thread, I beg of you to cite your source. I lived in Albuquerque New Mexico for 3 years and that state had by FAR the worst schools in the nation. This USA Today article shows South Carolina some 7 spots higher. It was a mixture of poor facilities and a culture that doesn't place importance on education.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/mone...ity-states-best-and-worst-schools/1079181001/

 

[HeavenUniv.]

I lived there in the 90s so I have no idea what who gave them that rating. I lived there for two and a half years and I remember that when I first moved there the state was ranked 49th and was then moved down to 50th. I worked with kids who were college students from USC and other colleges and they said many kids that want to become teachers leave the state after graduation for higher salaries in North Carolina and Georgia. It has been a long time since I lived there so I could not say if the better graduates still leave.

 

[HeavenUniv.]

One thing I noticed in South Carolina is many schools were beautiful even though teacher salaries were low. Of course, land availability and cost are much lower outside of New Jersey, not to mention labor prices.

 

[srru86]

Boston Globe
3 reasons college still matters
As universities struggle to adapt to a new academic world, they can’t forget the things they do best.

 

[BigRnj]

As far as declining enrollment goes, top schools will still attract foreign students, and perhaps at an increasing rate. Remember there are more honor students in both India and China then there are students in the US.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

How many kids are graduating each year from PA high schools?

My guess is less than it was 5 or 10 years ago

I knew people from NJ that went to places like West Chester and Kutztown but I don't know that it's enough to keep the smaller colleges afloat.

I would think Pitt and Temple are OK and their strong grad programs will keep them going

But some of these rural colleges there may not be enough kids to fill them.

In NJ it's a different dynamic. We never had enough spots for a good number of HS grads to stay here anyway. And we don't have any part of the state really sinking into the economic abyss.

Actually, a very good article describing the state of higher education in pa.

Don't know about Temple but Pitt is doing well (no shortage of student applications).

Pennsylvania support for Higher Education has continued to drop yearly. In 1966 when Private University of Pittsburgh became a State Related University (similar to Penn State and Temple) the amount of state funding was about 35%. Today I think state funding has dropped to about 8% (about $170. million).

As the article points out, the number of Pa college age students continues to drop and that affects the bottom line of every college in pa.

I think Penn State and the 14 true state colleges in pa are particularly vulnerable.
As the data shows most of Penn State 21 Branch Campuses and 14 state colleges saw significant reductions in students attending the respective campuses and that trend continues.

Pitt faces the same problems as Penn State but Pitt is fortunate in that it only has 4 Branch Campuses (Johnstown, Greensburg, Bradford and Titusville).
In the past year, Pitt actually explored closing the Titusville Campus.
When that news broke the area Republican state reps were alarmed with the loss of jobs and educational opportunities for the rural area. Pitt compromised but still shut down many programs but said a community college type system(not affiliated with Pitt) could use the Pitt facility buildings.

I referenced Republican state reps because for the most part the Pennsylvania Republican controlled legislature (in control for many years) has resisted increased funding for higher education in pa. As mentioned previously 35% to 8%and now pa has one of the highest cost public college education programs in the nation.

Without additional financial support I don't know how Penn State will be able to continue to support all 21 Branch Campuses in mostly rural (Republican) areas of Pa. In some cases the Penn State campuses compete with the 14 state universities which (as the data also shows) are also losing significant student body. Something has to give.

As you also mentioned, Pitt is well served by it Graduate Programs (particularly the Health Professions all nationally ranked in the Top 20 (US News) in the Nation. Most people are surprised that Pitt's Medical School is ranked higher than every B1G medical school and tied with Duke Medical School in the ACC.
Part of the reason for our success is the cooperation and affiliation with the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC). A $20 Billion integrated global health network with over 36 hospitals and 87,000 employees (largest employer in Pennsylvania).

Rutgers faces many of the same problems (lack of state funding) as the Pa state related schools but not as bad.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

Actually, a very good article describing the state of higher education in pa.

Don't know about Temple but Pitt is doing well (no shortage of student applications).

Pennsylvania support for Higher Education has continued to drop yearly. In 1966 when Private University of Pittsburgh became a State Related University (similar to Penn State and Temple) the amount of state funding was about 35%. Today I think state funding has dropped to about 8% (about $170. million).

As the article points out, the number of Pa college age students continues to drop and that affects the bottom line of every college in pa.

I think Penn State and the 14 true state colleges in pa are particularly vulnerable.
As the data shows most of Penn State 21 Branch Campuses and 14 state colleges saw significant reductions in students attending the respective campuses and that trend continues.

Pitt faces the same problems as Penn State but Pitt is fortunate in that it only has 4 Branch Campuses (Johnstown, Greensburg, Bradford and Titusville).
In the past year, Pitt actually explored closing the Titusville Campus.
When that news broke the area Republican state reps were alarmed with the loss of jobs and educational opportunities for the rural area. Pitt compromised but still shut down many programs but said a community college type system(not affiliated with Pitt) could use the Pitt facility buildings.

I referenced Republican state reps because for the most part the Pennsylvania Republican controlled legislature (in control for many years) has resisted increased funding for higher education in pa. As mentioned previously 35% to 8%and now pa has one of the highest cost public college education programs in the nation.

Without additional financial support I don't know how Penn State will be able to continue to support all 21 Branch Campuses in mostly rural (Republican) areas of Pa. In some cases the Penn State campuses compete with the 14 state universities which (as the data also shows) are also losing significant student body. Something has to give.

As you also mentioned, Pitt is well served by it Graduate Programs (particularly the Health Professions all nationally ranked in the Top 20 (US News) in the Nation. Most people are surprised that Pitt's Medical School is ranked higher than every B1G medical school and tied with Duke Medical School in the ACC.
Part of the reason for our success is the cooperation and affiliation with the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC). A $20 Billion integrated global health network with over 36 hospitals and 87,000 employees (largest employer in Pennsylvania).

Rutgers faces many of the same problems (lack of state funding) as the Pa state related schools but not as bad.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Hopefully after Gov Murphy stuck up for us with Schiano, we're on track to join the other B1G states where politicians actively reach out to our alums and fans with support for the University.

In NJ the dynamic is more so the wealthier areas of the state have a lot of private school alums who don't care about RU. But since the recession and the spiraling cost of college became worse, RU has now become a more tantalizing choice for even the upper middle class in the state.

NJ's population is also increasing based on immigration from other states and countries who don't come in with baked in negative views of the school some have.

 

[retired711]

Actually, a very good article describing the state of higher education in pa.

Don't know about Temple but Pitt is doing well (no shortage of student applications).

Pennsylvania support for Higher Education has continued to drop yearly. In 1966 when Private University of Pittsburgh became a State Related University (similar to Penn State and Temple) the amount of state funding was about 35%. Today I think state funding has dropped to about 8% (about $170. million).

As the article points out, the number of Pa college age students continues to drop and that affects the bottom line of every college in pa.

I think Penn State and the 14 true state colleges in pa are particularly vulnerable.
As the data shows most of Penn State 21 Branch Campuses and 14 state colleges saw significant reductions in students attending the respective campuses and that trend continues.

Pitt faces the same problems as Penn State but Pitt is fortunate in that it only has 4 Branch Campuses (Johnstown, Greensburg, Bradford and Titusville).
In the past year, Pitt actually explored closing the Titusville Campus.
When that news broke the area Republican state reps were alarmed with the loss of jobs and educational opportunities for the rural area. Pitt compromised but still shut down many programs but said a community college type system(not affiliated with Pitt) could use the Pitt facility buildings.

I referenced Republican state reps because for the most part the Pennsylvania Republican controlled legislature (in control for many years) has resisted increased funding for higher education in pa. As mentioned previously 35% to 8%and now pa has one of the highest cost public college education programs in the nation.

Without additional financial support I don't know how Penn State will be able to continue to support all 21 Branch Campuses in mostly rural (Republican) areas of Pa. In some cases the Penn State campuses compete with the 14 state universities which (as the data also shows) are also losing significant student body. Something has to give.

As you also mentioned, Pitt is well served by it Graduate Programs (particularly the Health Professions all nationally ranked in the Top 20 (US News) in the Nation. Most people are surprised that Pitt's Medical School is ranked higher than every B1G medical school and tied with Duke Medical School in the ACC.
Part of the reason for our success is the cooperation and affiliation with the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC). A $20 Billion integrated global health network with over 36 hospitals and 87,000 employees (largest employer in Pennsylvania).

Rutgers faces many of the same problems (lack of state funding) as the Pa state related schools but not as bad.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Thanks for your excellent and comprehensive post. Unfortunately, NJ also has a legislature that is tight-fisted when it comes to public higher education. The legislatures is not dominated by Governor Murphy, but rather by a state senator who has been hostile to Rutgers. Maybe things will get better.

OTOH, as @efdny points out, it is better to have the governor on your side than not.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Camden

Hope the New Jersey Democratic Governor can have a positive impact on education funding in NJ.

Well pa also has a Democratic Gov. (Tom Wolf) who is a supporter of increased funding for education in general in pa. However, whatever is proposed has to get through the pa Republican controlled legislature. Raising taxes will always be an issue. Alternative means are always considered.

Wolf tried to get an extraction tax (severance tax) on the extraction of natural gas from the marcellus and utica gas zones which run though Western Pennsylvania. In fact Pennsylvania is the largest producer/exporter of Natural Gas of all the states exporting 4600 bcf in 2016. According to Tom Wolf, Pennsylvania is the ONLY state that does not have an extraction tax. He proposed establishing an extraction tax and using some of the revenue to fund education in pa. For every cfm of natural gas extracted from the ground the gas producers would pa a state tax (similar to NJ residents paying a state tax when they pump a gallon of gasoline). However, the pa Republican Controlled legislature was able to block his proposal. Wolf claimed the gas produces spent $60 million trying to defeat the proposal. Well Royal Dutch Shell is in the process of spending about $6.0 billion building a Catalytic Cracker (one of the few not located on the Gulf Coast) not far from Pittsburgh. The liquids from the natural gas extractions will be collected and cracked to produce ethylene for plastics manufacturing.
I guess natural gas production will go on for many many years in pa. Seemed like a good idea to share the wealth of a naturally occurring commodity in the ground.

Well the problems facing Pennsylvania colleges/universities will not go away and short of additional funding some colleges or branch campuses may have to close or down size.
Unlimited tuition increases are not a solution.

One area I think New Jersey will have a bigger problem than Pennsylvania is in unfunded Pensions. When Christy (Republican) came in he said he would tackle the problem but I think it actually got worse. The new gov will now face this difficult funding situation going forward.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

Thanks for your excellent and comprehensive post. Unfortunately, NJ also has a legislature that is tight-fisted when it comes to public higher education. The legislatures is not dominated by Governor Murphy, but rather by a state senator who has been hostile to Rutgers. Maybe things will get better.

OTOH, as @efdny points out, it is better to have the governor on your side than not.

Sweeney you mean?

One thing I will say is with Murphy investigating Norcross and this whole Van Drew thing they are weakened. I do think that there is more support today in North and Central NJ than we have seen in the past.

 

[retired711]

Yep, I mean Sweeney. There is an expose of Norcross in today's Philadelphia Inquirer.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/george-norcross-camden-land-waterfront-liberty-nj-20191222.html

 

[NotInRHouse]

Yep, I mean Sweeney. There is an expose of Norcross in today's Philadelphia Inquirer.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/george-norcross-camden-land-waterfront-liberty-nj-20191222.html

Seems like some of his behavior arises out of bad real estate bets lol. Sounds familiar.

From what I can tell, it seems like Philly real estate is not that expensive (relatively) so all these projects in Camden aren't taking off the way we see in even Newark more recently.

I wonder if this cascade of all of his deeds is related to everything going on with Murphy or if someone else has it out for him.

 

[retired711]

Seems like some of his behavior arises out of bad real estate bets lol. Sounds familiar.

From what I can tell, it seems like Philly real estate is not that expensive (relatively) so all these projects in Camden aren't taking off the way we see in even Newark more recently.

I wonder if this cascade of all of his deeds is related to everything going on with Murphy or if someone else has it out for him.

My understanding is that federal investigators are on the case, and remember that the U.S. Attorney for NJ is a Republican, Craig Carpentio, an appointee of President Trump.

 

[NotInRHouse]

My understanding is that federal investigators are on the case, and remember that the U.S. Attorney for NJ is a Republican, Craig Carpentio, an appointee of President Trump.

True but I thought Norcross made nice with the GOP which is why Christie never went after him. Though this whole Van Drew thing is going to leave him with lots of splainin' to do.

 

[retired711]

True but I thought Norcross made nice with the GOP which is why Christie never went after him. Though this whole Van Drew thing is going to leave him with lots of splainin' to do.

Christie needed Sweeney (and hence Norcross)to get anything done in the legislature, so they played nice. It is possible that the GOP may figure that weakening Sweeney and Norcross would only strengthen Murphy. But it sure would be a feather in the cap of the U.S. Attorney to bring Norcross down, just as Christie made his mark as U.S. Attorney by prosecuting corrupt politicians.

 

[e5fdny]

It's the same thing I've said in a couple other threads. It's a buyer's market for kids in the 3.2 GPA/1150 SAT range. They really can't get into the Top 100 or so colleges, so all the rest are fighting for them. Given a choice between paying $25,000 for Stockton, Kutztown, or UMaine, you have to ask yourself if staying close to home is really that important. These other flagship State Us will gladly give in-state rates to a kid who will boost their average student profile.

If you think the state schools are having a tough time, imagine what the Drews & the Riders of the world are facing.

They have been it doing for awhile now. And so are some private schools...they look at the zip code and what state the application comes from and do their financial aid using that info. State to come close to RU's tuition and zip code to figure out how much. Having one for 07762 doesn't help. LOL

Expect to hear more students and parents talking about the University of Louisville. They are hitting the college fairs hard in New Jersey and are emphasizing cost. They are offering tons of money to New Jersey kids with good to very good grades and SATs. My youngest nephew is only a sophomore in high school, but he went to a college fair in Monmouth County and UL was there. On the front of the brochure, in very large letters, is Affordability. Inside, specific price discounts for NJ families mentioned.

As I mentioned above they have been a fixture at these fairs for bit now. And pushing what you talked about.

I have been to Louisville, and I think many Jersey kids would find it a culture shock. Kentucky stuck with the Union in the civil war, but the culture is *very* southern -- not modern south the way places like Atlanta, but very traditional south.

Sure is and I agree it would shock some but not all. Culture doesn't always deter these kids looking for a change of scenery. Some schools such as Alabama and South Carolina and Clemson have been successful getting NJ kids to head down south by throwing out scholarship money.

It is different. Knew a kid my older son's age, he didn't like Louisville and those were some of the reasons.

And yes, @RUnTeX some of those places love getting their Yankee $$$. Sometimes it's not so much the scholarship but the offering of the instate tuition that does it. Also as @RUJohnny99 said...we do help raise that profile..."NJ makes the World Takes" is still true. ;)

Thanks for your excellent and comprehensive post. Unfortunately, NJ also has a legislature that is tight-fisted when it comes to public higher education. The legislatures is not dominated by Governor Murphy, but rather by a state senator who has been hostile to Rutgers. Maybe things will get better.

OTOH, as @e5fdny points out, it is better to have the governor on your side than not.

You left out the "5" or I would have known about this part of the discussion. LOL

Sweeney you mean?

One thing I will say is with Murphy investigating Norcross and this whole Van Drew thing they are weakened. I do think that there is more support today in North and Central NJ than we have seen in the past.

Yep, I mean Sweeney. There is an expose of Norcross in today's Philadelphia Inquirer.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/george-norcross-camden-land-waterfront-liberty-nj-20191222.html

Yes, we know they (Norcross/Sweeney) have some real power but as I said in the Free Board thread...most see Murphy as the real Chief Executive in the State. So even just for appearance sakes...it's not a bad thing having the Governor on your side.

 

[Ban Basketball]

Returning to the original topic, low enrollments and the possibilities of campuses closing is a nationwide phenomenon right now, and NOT exclusive to PA.

We're having the exact same problems here in Iowa, and Simpson college, a long established private college here in Iowa, is surviving on fumes right now. It is forecasted that they will be one of the first higher profile colleges to close.

 

[T2Kplus10]

Christie needed Sweeney (and hence Norcross)to get anything done in the legislature, so they played nice. It is possible that the GOP may figure that weakening Sweeney and Norcross would only strengthen Murphy. But it sure would be a feather in the cap of the U.S. Attorney to bring Norcross down, just as Christie made his mark as U.S. Attorney by prosecuting corrupt politicians.

+1
Christie was a deal maker and cut deals with Norcross/Sweeney on many big items. And yes, to get the RU/UMDNJ merger across the finish line, Christie promised that if Norcross/Sweeney could get the bill to give RU-Camden to Rowan on his desk (i.e., passed the legislature), he should sign it. He didn't promise his help, but he did promise his signature.

 

[retired711]

+1
Christie was a deal maker and cut deals with Norcross/Sweeney on many big items. And yes, to get the RU/UMDNJ merger across the finish line, Christie promised that if Norcross/Sweeney could get the bill to give RU-Camden to Rowan on his desk (i.e., passed the legislature), he should sign it. He didn't promise his help, but he did promise his signature.

I don't know if I agree with your last sentence. I remember Christie proclaiming "This will happen!" at the start of the effort to take the Camden campus away.. No one seems to have done the elementary legal research that would have led to the realization that nothing could happen without Rutgers' consent. All anyone had to do was to read the legislation that made Rutgers the state university.

 

[T2Kplus10]

I don't know if I agree with your last sentence. I remember Christie proclaiming "This will happen!" at the start of the effort to take the Camden campus away.. No one seems to have done the elementary legal research that would have led to the realization that nothing could happen without Rutgers' consent. All anyone had to do was to read the legislation that made Rutgers the state university.

Christie never twisted arms for votes or anything like that. If he voiced support for the deal publicly a few times that's probably just him being a good partner. It was a means to the end and his primary objective was the death of UMDNJ.

 

[retired711]

Christie never twisted arms for votes or anything like that. If he voiced support for the deal publicly a few times that's probably just him being a good partner. It was a means to the end and his primary objective was the death of UMDNJ.

Proposal never got to floor of legislature, so he had little to twist arms about. By the time it was being considered in committee, everyone had realized that a campus could not be taken away from Rutgers without Rutgers' consent.

 

[RU to the Core]

As mentioned Pitt is doing very well. Pittsburgh is a college city. It’s an old metro area. Very old. But the city is young driven by the giant percentage of the city that is college age. Also Pitts endowment is massive in comparison to other schools it’s size.

 

[RUnTeX]

Pittsburgh is a college city.

Never struck me that Pittsburgh would be characterized as a college city....besides Pitt, there's CMU, RMU, and Duquesne. Any other institutions of note? Definitely agree that there's a substantial college aged population.

 

[rucoe89]

Not like I have been running around doing interviews, but I think that a good amount of NJ kids that in the past went to Pennsylvania state colleges like Kutztown, East Stroudsburg, and a bunch more are now going to Rowan. Stockton continues to grow as well. In addition to Pomona, they just opened a second campus right by the ocean in Atlantic City. The dorms looked beautiful.

Except the elite private colleges, most private colleges will be in serious trouble over the next 10 years. The bubble will soon pop on the private college education system.

 

[retired711]

Never struck me that Pittsburgh would be characterized as a college city....besides Pitt, there's CMU, RMU, and Duquesne. Any other institutions of note? Definitely agree that there's a substantial college aged population.

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have just about the same median age.Both ages are below the national average. But Pittsburgh is getting younger, and Philadelphia is getting older. This is quite a change from the 1980s when I was hunting for a faculty position: at that point, Pittsburgh's population was old enough for the place to seem undesirable to me. The metro area has done a remarkable job reviving itself, while Philadelphia has not been as successful.

 

[RU to the Core]

Never struck me that Pittsburgh would be characterized as a college city....besides Pitt, there's CMU, RMU, and Duquesne. Any other institutions of note? Definitely agree that there's a substantial college aged population.

There are a few lesser known colleges. Point park university, Carlow, Chatham,community college of Allegheny county all within city limits and since the city limits doesn’t have a large population. Around 300k, the 80k college students is a giant proportion. Factor in recent college grads who stay in Pittsburgh city limits and you have a young city. Metro and exurbs is much older. So it’s a college city but not one that your right is really top of mind.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

There are a few lesser known colleges. Point park university, Carlow, Chatham,community college of Allegheny county all within city limits and since the city limits doesn’t have a large population. Around 300k, the 80k college students is a giant proportion. Factor in recent college grads who stay in Pittsburgh city limits and you have a young city. Metro and exurbs is much older. So it’s a college city but not one that your right is really top of mind.

You are correct in your assessment and characterization of the city.
The 1980's were devastating to Pittsburgh with the shut down of many of its steel plant and manufacturing base.

The city had to reinvent itself basically using a strategy termed EDS and MEDS.
The colleges and universities within the city became very important in this effort with Pitt and CMU becoming the primary drivers. Both Pitt and CMU are major engines for bringing in Research Dollars to the area.

I read an article recently that 85-90% technology job growth is concentrated in just 5 cities (San Fran, San Jose, San Diego, Seattle and Boston). However, the other 15% is moving to smaller cities of which Pittsburgh is one of those mentioned. All of the major Tech Companies have a presence in Pittsburgh and those jobs are growing. I believe CMU is the primary factor for that job growth being one of the top schools in the Nation for Computing Technology and Artificial Intelligence.

As mentioned earlier, Pitt is the primary driver on the on the Medical Research Side. Pitt continues to prominently invest in these areas. Pitt just completed a significant investment in Pharmacy Research facilities (Pitt Pharmacy ranked #9/US News) and is in the process of spending $100 million in facility/research upgrades to Pitt Med School (currently ranked #14/US News).

For example, the Top 10 Medical Schools that received the most in National Institute of Health (NIH) funding in 2018:

University of California (SF)
Johns Hopkins University
Stanford University
Washington University
University of Pennsylvania
University of Pittsburgh
Yale University
Columbia University
Duke University
University of Michigan

Pitt Total Research $937 million per year and Pitt Endowment $4.2 billion.

You are also correct that most people are not aware of these facts.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia have just about the same median age.Both ages are below the national average. But Pittsburgh is getting younger, and Philadelphia is getting older. This is quite a change from the 1980s when I was hunting for a faculty position: at that point, Pittsburgh's population was old enough for the place to seem undesirable to me. The metro area has done a remarkable job reviving itself, while Philadelphia has not been as successful.

You are correct the 1980s were very bad for Pittsburgh.

By the way, would you have any advise on what it would take for Pitt to raise its Law School Ranking (Pitt Law ranked #77/US News). There are only 2 Law Schools in Pittsburgh (Pitt and Duquesne) and both Pitt and Duquesne have been struggling in this area.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

Pittsburgh is a cool small city. The topography is very interesting- lots of hills kind of like San Fran- and there's a nice downtown. It's much smaller than Philly. It's 300k people versus 250k in just Jersey City for example. I think it's more interesting than Philly but you'd probably run out of things to do faster and Philly is more accessible to the rest of the Northeast.

 

[NotInRHouse]

You are correct the 1980s were very bad for Pittsburgh.

By the way, would you have any advise on what it would take for Pitt to raise its Law School Ranking. There are only 2 Law Schools in Pittsburgh (Pitt and Duquesne) and both Pitt and Duquesne have been struggling in this area.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

Law school rankings are often tethered to the market surrounding them, especially out of the very top schools. In the case of Pittsburgh, how many good legal jobs are there in Western PA...I don't think it's an overwhelming number. So it will be harder to develop a profile.

It's not like medicine...my friend went to Robert Wood and did a fellowship at Pitt and now works in CA. It'd be nearly unheard of for a lawyer to go to RU-N or C, clerk in Pittsburgh, and then practice in CA.

I went to law school in NYC and graduated in the middle of the recession. Judges in NJ could have had kids from NYU and Columbia...and some insisted on only hiring kids that went to law school at RU and SHU. Law is weird like that. A lot of states refuse to provide reciprocity for law licenses, and it's only the past few years that there is a consolidated bar exam- and still many states refuse to participate.

 

[Ban Basketball]

A lot of states refuse to provide reciprocity for law licenses, and it's only the past few years that there is a consolidated bar exam- and still many states refuse to participate.

Just like education. Not all states accept teaching licenses from outside states.

 

[Panthergrowl13]

Pittsburgh is a cool small city. The topography is very interesting- lots of hills kind of like San Fran- and there's a nice downtown. It's much smaller than Philly. It's 300k people versus 250k in just Jersey City for example. I think it's more interesting than Philly but you'd probably run out of things to do faster and Philly is more accessible to the rest of the Northeast.

The population base can be a little misleading.
The land mass area of Pittsburgh (city limits- 55 sq miles)) is small compared to other cities.
Pittsburgh is located in Allegheny County and Allegheny County has a population base of1.22 million and the Metro population could be considered 2.35 million (surrounding counties).
Philadelphia is essentially considered Philadelphia County I believe (143 sq miles) almost 3 times larger than Pittsburgh.

HAIL TO PITT!!!!

 

[NotInRHouse]

Just like education. Not all states accept teaching licenses from outside states.

True but I'm not sure teaching licenses require the same amount of testing.

 

[RUnTeX]

Law is weird like that. A lot of states refuse to provide reciprocity for law licenses, and it's only the past few years that there is a consolidated bar exam- and still many states refuse to participate.

Not in law (considered it briefly 20+ years ago) so I hadn't heard about the consolidated bar. Back in the day, I used to wonder about the regionalism aspect. I was paying a bit more attention to rankings and state bars where certain law schools had their grads including the NJ ones (both Rutgers ones, SHU). With the top law schools (T14?) or maybe a few in the next tier, i.e. great schools such as Harvard, Duke, Michigan, Georgetown, and George Washington to name a few, they were perceived more prestigious because they seemed to always have the NY state bar (not even the DC bar for the latter two) reported in their rankings instead of their local/home state, even though there were obviously not located in the state of NY or even the NYC metro area.

I realized why and yet would notice that Rutgers and SHU had NJ state bar reported (nothing to sneeze at) but I suppose many of their grads were not bothering to sit for the NY state bar, which seemed to be the gold standard (and perhaps more difficult?). Of course, then there's SUNY-Buffalo law and its grads likely remaining upstate and perhaps having little to no interest (or basically no chance getting their foot in the door) at white shoe law firms in Manhattan but still having to pass the same NY bar.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Not in law (considered it briefly 20+ years ago) so I hadn't heard about the consolidated bar. Back in the day, I used to wonder about the regionalism aspect. I was paying a bit more attention to rankings and state bars where certain law schools had their grads including the NJ ones (both Rutgers ones, SHU). With the top law schools (T14?) or maybe a few in the next tier, i.e. great schools such as Harvard, Duke, Michigan, Georgetown, and George Washington to name a few, they were perceived more prestigious because they seemed to always have the NY state bar (not even the DC bar for the latter two) reported in their rankings instead of their local/home state, even though there were obviously not located in the state of NY or even the NYC metro area.

I realized why and yet would notice that Rutgers and SHU had NJ state bar reported (nothing to sneeze at) but I suppose many of their grads were not bothering to sit for the NY state bar, which seemed to be the gold standard (and perhaps more difficult?). Of course, then there's SUNY-Buffalo law and its grads likely remaining upstate and perhaps having little to no interest (or basically no chance getting their foot in the door) at white shoe law firms in Manhattan but still having to pass the same NY bar.

So at least when I started law school in 07, RU-N and SHU definitely published NY results (and RU-C PA results). Outside of the T14, maybe GW, BC, BU, Tulane and ND would have...those were the ones considered to maybe have some national clout and I know people from all of those sans GW right now working in this area. But even still, it was known at least when I was applying that even Cornell which is a T14 didn't place as well on the West Coast.

Within the past few years, NY, NJ and a few other states adopted the multi state bar exam. I know TX and CA resisted but many other states did move over. I think now you have some time after you take the multi state and you can pay and get in in a few different jurisdictions- for someone taking NY and NJ you take two days of exams and just pay each state, I think one day essays and multiple choice without state specifics.

When I did it, you took two exams, the NY exam had a ton of specific NY law questions and areas covered that only NY asked about (family law, trusts and wills, NY civ pro). You took the NY essay day Tuesday, the multi state multiple choice exam Wednesday (results counted for NY and NJ) and then Thursday the NJ essays, which only covered the multi state topics (there may have been a NJ civ pro question but NJ adopted the federal rules for the most part). This involved two days at the Javitz Center and then a train back to NJ to go to AC for the NJ day. Not fun. But when I read the NJ questions I laughed. They were so easy comparatively.

For me NY has reciprocity with some states where if you practice 5 of the last 7 years you can get in a couple of different states (PA, IL, CO) off the top of my head and DC has reciprocity with all 50. Generally FL, TX and CA are the big sticklers because they don't want relocators or retirees moving in mucking everything up. However most states do allow you to work in house as long as you're active in another jurisdiction. I do know someone I went to law school with that works at Google in CA this way.