Poverty rate in New Brunswick

[retired711]

I just got a mailing from the Campaign for Justice, an organization that represents poor people in civil matters (e.g. disputes with landlords, foreclosures, domestic violence). Its brochure says that 62.2% of the people of New Brunswick live in poverty. The definition of poverty is a little unusual -- twice the Federal definition of poverty level. Thus a family of four earning less than about $49,000 would be considered impoverished by the Campaign's definition.

All of you know New Brunswick better than I do -- does this figure seem credible?

Interestingly enough, Camden is only slightly higher -- 65.3%. I am very surprised the percentage is not higher. I didn't think there was anyone above that level in Camden. The figure reflects, I think, how hard it is to find affordable housing even with more income than twice the poverty level.

Anyway, I thought this might interest some of you.

P..S. I am taking a break from the football board for a while -- I am not sure how long that break will last.

 

[RUskoolie]

My definition of "poverty" is quite different from the governments. My guess is they are counting the poorer townies, the loads of illegals and possibly even the students? It's no secret the median income in New Brunswick is low, which is why I hope they continue to build around downtown and try to attract people with more money.

 

[mal359]

You have to remember that New brunswick is both a traditional college town as well as a gentrified yuppie town. On the other hand, any gentrification of Camden is at least 5 years away, but might be coming sooner than we think, thanks to Subaru's corporate governance. That said, neither New brunswick nor Camden's poverty rates surprise me; anywhere off the beaten path in New Brunswick is shady at best, and Camden isn't nearly the beast that it used to be.

The crime rate is indeed higher in Camden, but I don't doubt that overall poverty is similar.

 

[retired711]

For 30 years, I've been hearing that renaissance in Camden is 5 years away.

 

[NotInRHouse]

Does it include college students? Does it include the undocumented?

Those two probably comprise at least 3/4 of the city. Then you have the yuppies, maybe 10%, and the rest of the town at about 15%.

Most students and undocumented are not being counted, so I really doubt the statistics on New Brunswick overall..

 

[retired711]

Does it include college students? Does it include the undocumented?

Those two probably comprise at least 3/4 of the city. Then you have the yuppies, maybe 10%, and the rest of the town at about 15%.

Most students and undocumented are not being counted, so I really doubt the statistics on New Brunswick overall..

Why are you so sure that "most students and undocumented are not being counted?"

 

[NotInRHouse]

Well it is my experience. While at RU I conducted a research project which dealt with Spanish speakers. I had to survey the local NB population and I was consistently rebuffed for participation despite the fact that the survey was anonymous and had no questions on citizenship, and was told reason was did not wanted be counted or marked in anyway because of status. I also have worked with the undocumented since, and they are very, very weary about giving away anything about their identity so I don't see how they would be counted towards the populace. Additionally, many undocumented families move a lot, which makes it more difficult to count them.

In terms of students, it is a pretty interesting legal question. It would seem to me that based on the census college students away at college get counted at home and not at college. The three main tests of residency are where you are registered to vote, where your license is, and where you pay taxes. I think most students don't change their voting registration and license in college unless they are trying to get in state tuition and even that is hard. Taxes, maybe some of them use their local address with college jobs. So I don't think they're counted unless like undocumented someone goes and tries to count them, but their luck would likely not be much better.

And even then, let's say you found a way to count them, how to you qualify their income? Many college students get money from their parents. Others take out loans for personal spending. Are roommates households? An undocumented laborer that gets paid off the books- how is he counted?

New Brunswick is probably for a city of its size one of the toughest nuts to crack in that regard.

 

[Upstream]

Well it is my experience. While at RU I conducted a research project which dealt with Spanish speakers. I had to survey the local NB population and I was consistently rebuffed for participation despite the fact that the survey was anonymous and had no questions on citizenship, and was told reason was did not wanted be counted or marked in anyway because of status. I also have worked with the undocumented since, and they are very, very weary about giving away anything about their identity so I don't see how they would be counted towards the populace. Additionally, many undocumented families move a lot, which makes it more difficult to count them.

In terms of students, it is a pretty interesting legal question. It would seem to me that based on the census college students away at college get counted at home and not at college. The three main tests of residency are where you are registered to vote, where your license is, and where you pay taxes. I think most students don't change their voting registration and license in college unless they are trying to get in state tuition and even that is hard. Taxes, maybe some of them use their local address with college jobs. So I don't think they're counted unless like undocumented someone goes and tries to count them, but their luck would likely not be much better.

And even then, let's say you found a way to count them, how to you qualify their income? Many college students get money from their parents. Others take out loans for personal spending. Are roommates households? An undocumented laborer that gets paid off the books- how is he counted?

New Brunswick is probably for a city of its size one of the toughest nuts to crack in that regard.

The Census rules are pretty clear that college students living away from their parents' home for school are counted as living in their college residence. http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2010/resid_rules/resid_rules.html

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) but staying at their parental home while on break or vacation - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.​

As far as determining poverty, people living in college dorms are excluded from the poverty determination (while students living on their own are included). That is why the US Census reports the population of New Brunswick as 57,080, but only determines the poverty status for 47,935.

But the poverty count of students living on their own certainly seems to push the poverty numbers in NB higher. Of those NB residents included in the poverty determination, 40% of those 18 and 22% of those older than 24 live below the poverty line. But 60% of those between 18 and 24 live below the poverty line. Also, those between 18 and 24 account for 37% of those living in poverty, while they only account for 22% of the population.

 

[retired711]

Well it is my experience. While at RU I conducted a research project which dealt with Spanish speakers. I had to survey the local NB population and I was consistently rebuffed for participation despite the fact that the survey was anonymous and had no questions on citizenship, and was told reason was did not wanted be counted or marked in anyway because of status. I also have worked with the undocumented since, and they are very, very weary about giving away anything about their identity so I don't see how they would be counted towards the populace. Additionally, many undocumented families move a lot, which makes it more difficult to count them.

In terms of students, it is a pretty interesting legal question. It would seem to me that based on the census college students away at college get counted at home and not at college. The three main tests of residency are where you are registered to vote, where your license is, and where you pay taxes. I think most students don't change their voting registration and license in college unless they are trying to get in state tuition and even that is hard. Taxes, maybe some of them use their local address with college jobs. So I don't think they're counted unless like undocumented someone goes and tries to count them, but their luck would likely not be much better.

And even then, let's say you found a way to count them, how to you qualify their income? Many college students get money from their parents. Others take out loans for personal spending. Are roommates households? An undocumented laborer that gets paid off the books- how is he counted?

New Brunswick is probably for a city of its size one of the toughest nuts to crack in that regard.

NIRH, in what language were you speaking? How were you dressed?

 

[Scarlet Pride]

My definition of "poverty" is quite different from the governments. My guess is they are counting the poorer townies, the loads of illegals and possibly even the students? It's no secret the median income in New Brunswick is low, which is why I hope they continue to build around downtown and try to attract people with more money.

I don't know anything about the group or report but why wouldn't they count the "townies" or immigrant population? Why would exclude poorer populations? Isn't that the point.

In regards to accuracy the students definitely impact the numbers but it's fair to say that New Brunswick has a large population living under the poverty level and/or under that group's definition. Downtown in improving and hopefully will continue to but whether or not that actually addresses the problem or just changes the numbers is a different question.

 

[NotInRHouse]

NIRH, in what language were you speaking? How were you dressed?

Ironically, I remember doing this the day of the Ville game in 06 in the morning. So Rutgers T shirt, and English or Spanish, depending on the situation.

 

[NotInRHouse]

The Census rules are pretty clear that college students living away from their parents' home for school are counted as living in their college residence. http://www.census.gov/population/www/cen2010/resid_rules/resid_rules.html

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.

College students living away from their parental home while attending college in the U.S. (living either on-campus or off-campus) but staying at their parental home while on break or vacation - Counted at the on-campus or off-campus residence where they live and sleep most of the time.​

As far as determining poverty, people living in college dorms are excluded from the poverty determination (while students living on their own are included). That is why the US Census reports the population of New Brunswick as 57,080, but only determines the poverty status for 47,935.

But the poverty count of students living on their own certainly seems to push the poverty numbers in NB higher. Of those NB residents included in the poverty determination, 40% of those 18 and 22% of those older than 24 live below the poverty line. But 60% of those between 18 and 24 live below the poverty line. Also, those between 18 and 24 account for 37% of those living in poverty, while they only account for 22% of the population.

How many college students do you think fill out the census, and how accurate is it? Figuring even if you live on campus just freshman year, that's a lot of transience.

And then how is income calculated? If I had received a census in college, should I have marked my $7.50/hr job, or my parents' income because I was supported by them, combine it with my roommate's and his parents?

I guess it makes sense for the mere purpose of counting it makes sense, not sure what else...

 

[retired711]

Interesting. This is speculation, but Latino immigrants, even legals, may be suspicious of anyone who doesn't look like them and is asking questions. It's common behavior among immigrants; I'm sure our grandparents and great grandparents were like that.

 

[Upstream]

How many college students do you think fill out the census, and how accurate is it? Figuring even if you live on campus just freshman year, that's a lot of transience.

And then how is income calculated? If I had received a census in college, should I have marked my $7.50/hr job, or my parents' income because I was supported by them, combine it with my roommate's and his parents?

I guess it makes sense for the mere purpose of counting it makes sense, not sure what else...

If you don't understand how the decennial census and census surveys work, I'm not going to give you a lesson in statistics.

 

[retired711]

Upstream, my impression is that the census is a literal head count, but I've never been sure where the poverty numbers come from. I dimly recollect a time when some census-takers received a long form -- is that still the case?

 

[Upstream]

Upstream, my impression is that the census is a literal head count, but I've never been sure where the poverty numbers come from. I dimly recollect a time when some census-takers received a long form -- is that still the case?

The Decennial Census itself is a headcount. Most people are counted by submission of census forms, but the Census Bureau uses many supplementary methods to count people who do not submit forms and to validate that forms submitted are accurate. Certainly it is more difficult to count illegal immigrants, homeless, and others who don't want to be counted. And many municipalities with larger numbers of these groups regularly challenge the census count as being inaccurate (although most of these challenges are unsuccessful, or only make a marginal difference in the final count).

Poverty rate is not measured in the Decennial Census. The Decennial Census is only a headcount with some additional demographic questions (like sex, race and age) and some validation questions (like does the person listed sometimes live elsewhere such as college housing or jail).

Poverty rate is measured by American Community Survey (ACS) conducted by the Census Bureau. The ACS replaced the old "long form" and asks many more questions than the Decennial Survey. It is conducted every year. Because it is a survey, the ACS is subject to the statistical tools that apply to all surveys, including a margin of error. Interesting, because you can determine the statistical error in the total population count from the ACS, it can be used to validate the Decennial Census.

 

[retired711]

Thanks, Upstream. I notice that (estimated) population figures for communities come out between censuses. These are based on sampling, right?

 

[Upstream]

yes